TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[TheInsider]

Turkiye
315 Aircraft (with EF) with all last gen AESA and BVR + KAAN Block10/20(2030+) + Anka-3-4 (AESA), Kizilelma-B-C (AESA)

Greece
220 Aircraft with 108 of them (F16V+ Rafale F3R) have AESA and last gen BVR, 18 of them (Mirage-2000BG) will be out of the service until 2030 I guess and 24 of them (Mirage 2000-5) won't get any upgrade.

+ up to 40 F35A with No new missiles (2030+)

**F4's at both side are excluded

SABR and RBE2 AESA are not the last gen AESA radars. Greek F-35s will probably be TR-4 version so only Greek F-35s will have the last-generation AESA radars.

 

[Afif]

SABR and RBE2 AESA are not the last gen AESA radars.

SABR uses 95% of APG-81's technology. RBE2 is old yes.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Tbh why still buy it.
Seems to me 40 F35 usd8 billion greek will simply wipe out the usd23 billion F16.
Might as well put all these money on local investment like kizellima,Kaan,Anka 3 and engine .
Its not like Turkey will go to war with Nato within these few years.

Even if KAAN is 100% a success, even if we produce 300 for ourselves, all the americans will do is look to use a regional prostitute against Turkey, in which a few exist.

greece today only really exists because of the perceived Turkish threat, which it not so much a threat but rather westerners don't like anyone who has independence and sovereignty. greece originally was created by england, france and russia, once creating it then they got a danish prince and made him king of greece. Without Turks she serves no purpose and most likely would have been annexed by someone else.

The stronger Turks get the more favours the greeks will be given.

 

[TheInsider]

SABR uses 95% of APG-81's technology. RBE2 is old yes.

APG-81 is also not the latest and greatest. It is a 20+ year-old radar.

BTW I don't believe the Turkish F-16 deal is done. Expect Congress to take steps at any time to stop the deal even after deliveries start. We are literally at the mercy of Congress until all the items are delivered successfully.

Congress will threaten to stop the deal if we launch an operation in Syria. If we Aegean/East Med heats etc.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Ok, we don't get any other fighter jets ready, neither from Europe nor from the USA, we don't have access to the F-35 fighter jets, we don't get the really good fighter jets from Russia SU57 or China J20 and J31 either because we are a NATO member.
The Greeks will get their 40 F-35s regardless of whether we get the F-16s or not.
So tell us the alternatives? Maybe I've missed something, I'm talking about milestones over the next 10 years.
Apart from that, you don't really believe that Greece will really get 40 F35s in the next 6-8 years.
The countries are all queuing up at the moment, first of all the US versions will be upgraded, then the other countries that have already ordered will follow. By the time Greece gets all its F35s, we will have already built 10-20 KAAN Block 10s.

Perhaps agreements have been made that are worth more than these fighter jets, such as an assurance that the US government will not do anything if General Electric builds an engine with TEI/Kale or other turkish Company that Turkey has full rights to.

Alternatives ? I told before .

1- Upgrade ourselfs all f16 fighter jets
2- Speed up Kaan 5gen fighter and its engine
3- build large number of CENK & TAYFUN
-Do u think even if we buy f16 will Usa bring them tomorrow? at least not before 2027 while we build Kaan in 2028
And we need alot of money to build our weapons , Frigates , Mildens, drones , SAMs etc etc

 

[Cabatli_TR]

SABR and RBE2 AESA are not the last gen AESA radars. Greek F-35s will probably be TR-4 version so only Greek F-35s will have the last-generation AESA radars.

SABR is the radar that can be used by last gen F16 variants and is offered to F16 customers as last gen. We expect Murad AESA to show better performance. Let me know if there is a newer version other than SABR for F16s. Yes, RBE-2 is not a last gen radar but it is AESA.

 

[Afif]

APG-81 is also not the latest and greatest. It is a 20+ year old radar.

Technically yes. But it is indeed the best one out there today. No other fighter has better radar than F-35. And continue to be until APG-85 comes along in 2025.

 

[uçuyorum]

It is being reported that at the end US basically said either accept Sweden into Nato or we will intoduce F35 bill for Greece to congress on its own and good luck passing F16 deal on its own from congress

 

[TheInsider]

Technically yes. But it is indeed the best out there. And continue to be until APG-85 comes along in 2025.

Nope.

Raytheon’s APG-79(V)4 is a derivative of APG-79 radar system. It features the first airborne gallium nitride (GaN) AESA fire-control technology.

GaN-AESA radar helps the airmen to identify and track the enemy’s aircraft from far distances with more precision, while fulfilling the aircraft’s power and cooling requirements.

The new APG-79(V)4 radar system is similar, in terms of technology and components, to the current AN/APG-79 radar used in the USMC’s F/A-18 Hornet aircraft fleet.

Raytheon tests APG-79(V)4 ASEA radar on USMC F/A-18 Hornet

Raytheon Intelligence & Space have successfully conducted the first flight of its pre-production APG-79 (V) 4 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system.

www.naval-technology.com

 

[Afif]

Nope.

Raytheon tests APG-79(V)4 ASEA radar on USMC F/A-18 Hornet

Raytheon Intelligence & Space have successfully conducted the first flight of its pre-production APG-79 (V) 4 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system.

www.naval-technology.com

Just having GaN tech does not necessarily makes it best though. GaN offer wider bandwidth and efficiency in terms of cooling due to higher voltage tolerace. Which is good but from my understanding, radar's performance is more impacted by antenna gain, reciever gain, better beam directivity, & back end software sophistication. And these has more to do with T/R modules design, GaN itself does not impact any of these criterias afaik. Besides, iirc APG-81's processing is done by F-35's central processing core. (Although it is not the case with APG-83.)

 

[TheInsider]

SABR is the radar that can be used by last gen F16 variants and is offered to F16 customers as last gen. We expect Murad AESA to show better performance. Let me know if there is a newer version other than SABR for F16s. Yes, RBE-2 is not a last gen radar but it is AESA.

SABR is the best F-16 can get until MURAD becomes available but it is not the latest AESA technology.

 

[TheInsider]

Just having GaN tech does not necessarily makes it best though. GaN offer wider bandwidth and efficiency in terms of cooling due to higher voltage tolerace. Which is good but from my understanding, radar's performance is more impacted by antenna gain, reciever gain, better beam directivity, & back end software sophistication. And these has more to do with T/R modules design, GaN itself does not impact any of these criterias. Besides, afaik APG-81's processing is done by F-35's central processing core. (Although it is not the case with APG-83.)

APG-79 and APG-81 are the same generation radars, and both use similar technologies.

AN/APG-81 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Chocopie]

Turkiye
315 Aircraft (with EF) with all last gen AESA and BVR + KAAN Block10/20(2030+) + Anka-3-4 (AESA), Kizilelma-B-C (AESA)

Greece
220 Aircraft with 108 of them (F16V+ Rafale F3R) have AESA and last gen BVR, 18 of them (Mirage-2000BG) will be out of the service until 2030 I guess and 24 of them (Mirage 2000-5) won't get any upgrade.

+ up to 40 F35A with No new missiles (2030+)

**F4's at both side are excluded

That‘s an optimistic outlook if everything goes fine according to plans.

The bleak reality right now is: TurAF has zero active fighter jet with AESA radar and BVR missiles. While Greece already operates 12 Rafale F3R with AESA and Meteor AAM and 10 F-16V with AESA and AMRAAM.

Murad AESA radar although installed on 1 Akinci and 1 Özgür F-16 (?) is still in test phase and not in serial production for the foreseeable future afaik.

 

[uçuyorum]

The most positive aspect of this purchase to me is that at least we can compare murad to APG83 and analyze the detection of KAAN by it.

 

[TheInsider]

The most positive aspect of this purchase to me is that at least we can compare murad to APG83 and analyze the detection of KAAN by it.

True, but if MURAD can perform as well as half of the lab performance it will be better than SABR.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

SABR is the best F-16 can get until MURAD becomes available but it is not the latest AESA technology.

I didn't say SABR is the latest AESA tech in radars but It is certain that it is the latest of its generation F16's best variant can use and this make it the last gen for F16s a customer can purchase. That's what I meant

 

[Cabatli_TR]

That‘s an optimistic outlook if everything goes fine according to plans.

The bleak reality right now is: TurAF has zero active fighter jet with AESA radar and BVR missiles. While Greece already operates 12 Rafale F3R with AESA and Meteor AAM and 10 F-16V with AESA and AMRAAM.

Murad AESA radar although installed on 1 Akinci and 1 Özgür F-16 (?) is still in test phase and not in serial production for the foreseeable future afaik.

Yes, optimistic but It is still an option. We will wait and see the direction.

 

[Ryder]

Every weapon system the USA and EU sells will always come with strings attached.

Turkiye will have to find stop gap solutions while upping its domestic built to 100% full power.

This cant go on for long. USA basically pissing on Turkiye. But wait the day when Turkiye can piss on them but it will take decades.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Alternatives ? I told before .

1- Upgrade ourselfs all f16 fighter jets
2- Speed up Kaan 5gen fighter and its engine
3- build large number of CENK & TAYFUN
-Do u think even if we buy f16 will Usa bring them tomorrow? at least not before 2027 while we build Kaan in 2028
And we need alot of money to build our weapons , Frigates , Mildens, drones , SAMs etc etc

I recently saw an interview with Temel Kotil on YouTube.
He said that nothing can be accelerated, new knowledge comes with research, there is no button you press and it comes by itself, it is hard work that costs a lot of time and money.

From the realization of the research of a material to the real test material to test and improve its properties.
It takes time and money to get to the first pre-series product, which is then subjected to a test run over several months or years.
Then comes the test from the government to get approval at all through certificates & co, also over several months & years.
Only then does series production take place, e.g. in the exterior material of an aircraft in the form of composite material or alloys with other materials.
You can't speed things up, either you hire foreign engineers who can speed things up with the risk of espionage or you continue with what you have in terms of human resources.

Now transfer my example to every product in our armed forces that is currently in prototype status.
Let it be engines, thrusters, radar absorbing material, AESA radar, software or ammunition.
These can be totally banal things like a screw that has to withstand extremely strong temperature fluctuations for a short time without the material expanding and contracting again, as is the case with heat and cold, for example.

 

[UcanTost]

so does anyone have a summary regarding this deal? did anyone have an opinion besides, "we got fucking buttfucked dry in the anus" ?