TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[TheInsider]

F-35 is dangerous if the US wants your fighters to stay on the ground they will stay on the ground. At the moment there is little risk for Turkish F-16s in that regard.

 

[Yasar_TR]

F-35 is dangerous if the US wants your fighters to stay on the ground they will stay on the ground. At the moment there is little risk for Turkish F-16s in that regard.

Can you give us concrete proof that what you claim can be done by the push of a button?
Or is it just a generalisation that if US wants to ground any county’s F35 fighters, they can do it by stopping spares etc?
Because that statement is a bit vague!

 

[Zafer]

Through one way communication signals can be transmitted to a recipient device without the recipient even transmitting any signal back at all. The F35 has all the means to realize the instructions given to it.

 

[TheInsider]

Can you give us concrete proof that what you claim can be done by the push of a button?
Or is it just a generalisation that if US wants to ground any county’s F35 fighters, they can do it by stopping spares etc?
Because that statement is a bit vague!

I meant both.
Sure I can give you some proof as if concrete proof for a top-secret kill switch can ever be found on the internet.

Pentagon Wants Kill Switch for Planes

The Pentagon’s non-lethal weapons division is looking for technologies that could "disable" aircraft, before they can take off from a runway — or block the planes from flying over a given city of stretch of land. In a request for proposals, issued earlier this week, the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons...

www.wired.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

I meant both.
Sure I can give you some proof as if concrete proof for a top-secret kill switch can ever be found on the internet.

Pentagon Wants Kill Switch for Planes

The Pentagon’s non-lethal weapons division is looking for technologies that could "disable" aircraft, before they can take off from a runway — or block the planes from flying over a given city of stretch of land. In a request for proposals, issued earlier this week, the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons...

www.wired.com

Exactly. As such a device’s presence can’t be known, we can only guess and use conjecture. Even if there is, they will never admit it’s presence and we will never know.
If any country knew such a device is fitted on their plane they wouldn’t be very willing to buy that plane.
It is a good idea to implement so that you can prevent weapons being used against you.
Russian method is very effective too. They just supply substandard weapons that have less range less lethality etc.
The kill switch that is mentioned in your post is a counter weapon system that can be used for any plane or ship. This is to stop rogue plane or ship loads of WMDs being used against US assets before they are in range.

 

[Oublious]

It is a valid argument in the sense that these countries have made a conscious choice (like we had until we were kicked out - we were those countries once) to purchase these planes knowing exactly how much they are technically going to be dependent on US.
US supporting PYD and clashing with us in political terms is not related to whether we should buy these planes or not. US has an agenda that it is following. We will resist that agenda whenever it is against our interests. What startled US was that, a Turkey that was subservient to all their whims and requests before, now have said “NO” for a second time since their troops were not allowed to use Turkish soil in first gulf war.
But that same US has allowed their industry to sell very critical machinery that will help liberate our defence industry like @neosinan had posted:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485998391477870598

If we stick with the logic that “US is against us in Syria then US is our enemy” , we should not buy anything from them , including 40 new F16Vs and 80 modernisation kits.
We will never physically fight with US. So just use the status quo to our advantage as much as we can.
We know very well that if we buy those 40 new F16Vs we will be dependent on US for them. We will not be able to do what ever we want with them. But we are willing to put up with that, Why? Because we think we may manage the dependency issue to a degree since the lack of those planes will mean more.
We have a saying in Turkish “until you cross the bridge you have to call the bear a friend to let you through”

Againg not a valid argument, you are straying away from the subject. We are talking about a F35 and not F16, maybe they are not going to sell it to. The news about is positif but that is, maybe it because of Russia. I agree with the last senctece.

 

[Tonil]

Just compare the F-35 to the F-16 which also has a ''kill switch'' but still is the backbone of our Air Force.
Like @Yasar abi wrote,we need at least two squadrons of the F-35.

Just temporary but MIUS and TFX will be in less then 6-7 years hence F-35s will have a short window as Turkeys best fighters by default.. Strange indeed but don't think Turkey is complaining by being awash with stealth

 

[Saithan]

Guys this is like chewing on a jerky with massiv sinew issue, and we're letting the same stuff go around from mouth to mouth. Can we stop it

 

[TheInsider]

If Russia invades Ukraine I expect our first 6 F-35s to be given immediately.

 

[Saithan]

If Russia invades Ukraine I expect our first 6 F-35s to be given immediately.

That's not going to happen. You may expect the F16 deal to get through but not without ensuring Turkey takes steps to mess up our relations with Russia.

 

[Ecderha]

If Russia invades Ukraine I expect our first 6 F-35s to be given immediately.

Sorry to say that but it is Naive thinking.
usa need "cannon fodder" at moment and they/Nato expect this to be Turkiye.
You forget usa applied embargo and this will not change becuase russia will invade Ukraine.

Situation, the focus at moment is changed to russia - Ukraine conflict buuuuuuuut
usa do NOT changed stance /state for Turkiye for usa embargos for Turkiye stay.

Turkiye is pushing Legaly to fix the issue with Money and asset which usa is a Robber.
usa just want to play tricks for Turkiye at moment usa need to focus on china. Issue is that russia pushed too much and pull another usa "legs".
usa just want to make thier live be more easy and that why they PLAY tricks with Turkiye, because usa made everthing like enemy do against Turkiye so for usa Turkiye can pull 3rd "leg" of usa

 

[TheInsider]

usa need "cannon fodder" at moment and they/Nato expect this to be Turkiye.

Lol, you think we are dumb enough to enter a war for 6 aircraft?

You forget usa applied embargo and this will not change becuase russia will invade Ukraine.

Well the US can continue to play that tune while Russia annexes half of the world.

 

[Huelague]

That's not going to happen. You may expect the F16 deal to get through but not without ensuring Turkey takes steps to mess up our relations with Russia.

Which relation? We are fighting Russian in Azerbaijan, Syria, Libya, Ukraine and some other countries. No other NATO member do this.

 

[kenny]

If I were an officer of the air force, I would devote my attention entirely to an aircraft that would perform air missions. I think we are gradually shifting from air to ground to unmanned aerial vehicles.

 

[Stuka]

Production of 128 F-16 block 70/72 orders from Bahrain, Slovakia, Morocco, Bulgaria and Taiwan was expected to be completed by 2026. However, Lockheed Martin announced that the current program was delayed for 1 more year due to Covid-19.

COVID supply chain woes add yearlong delay to first F-16 rollout at new facility - Breaking Defense

The first F-16 produced in Greenville, S.C., won't be ready to begin flying until late 2022, said Greg Ulmer, Lockheed's vice president of aeronautics.

breakingdefense.com

Turkey's orders for the F-16V will not start production before 2027. Meanwhile, it seems likely that the COVID-19 outbreak will further occupy the production line. TAI has no place to produce new F-16s. The facilities are not sufficient. So don't get your hopes up, folks.

Biden administration approves $4.2B F-16 sale to Jordan

The U.S. also approved the sale of spare parts to the United Arab Emirates for air defense systems, a few weeks after UAE used the THAAD system in battle for the first time.

www.defensenews.com

*Production of 144 F-16s*

And Philippines might follow after Congress Approval.

Philippines gets approval for F-16, missile buy worth over $2 billion

The Philippines could also buy Raytheon Technologies AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and Boeing AGM-84L-1 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles.

www.defensenews.com

**Production of 156 F-16s**

 

[Heartbang]

Biden administration approves $4.2B F-16 sale to Jordan

The U.S. also approved the sale of spare parts to the United Arab Emirates for air defense systems, a few weeks after UAE used the THAAD system in battle for the first time.

www.defensenews.com

*Production of 144 F-16s*

And Philippines might follow after Congress Approval.

Philippines gets approval for F-16, missile buy worth over $2 billion

The Philippines could also buy Raytheon Technologies AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder air-to-air missiles and Boeing AGM-84L-1 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles.

www.defensenews.com

**Production of 156 F-16s**

im pretty sure US Congress are taking the piss. :/

 

[Stuka]

It gets even better the Delay which has been announced as 1 Year increased to 2 Years.

Due to Supply-Chain issues. According to US Embassy in Bulgaria.

The delivery of the eight F-16 fighters to the Bulgarian army will be delayed by two years, Prime Minister Kiril Petkov announced on 12 February.

The F-16 production program is delayed due to supply chain disruptions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. This unfavourable delay will affect all countries that are currently participating in this program,” the embassy said in a statement.

The United States says it remains committed to supporting the modernization of the Bulgarian army.

The initial plan was for the first planes to arrive in Bulgaria in 2023 and the last ones in 2024. They cost €1.1 billion, which were prepaid. Bulgaria plans to buy eight more F 16 fighter jets from the US.

F-16 delivery for the Bulgarian army delayed by two years - Euractiv

The delivery of the eight F-16 fighters to the Bulgarian army will be delayed by two years, Prime Minister Kiril Petkov announced on 12 February. The prime minister explained that the reason for the delay was the Covid-19 pandemic and disrupted supplies. Bulgarian...

www.euractiv.com

So for Bulgaria that means:

2019 > Agreement
2023 > Original Delivery start
2025 > Expected Delivery start

And keep in mind at that time Bulgaria was the 3rd Costumer after Bahrain (16) and Slovakia (14) = 30 Aircraft in queue.

Now we are talking about a queue of at least 144 F-16s.

 

[Yasar_TR]

It gets even better the Delay which has been announced as 1 Year increased to 2 Years.

Due to Supply-Chain issues. According to US Embassy in Bulgaria.

The delivery of the eight F-16 fighters to the Bulgarian army will be delayed by two years, Prime Minister Kiril Petkov announced on 12 February.

The F-16 production program is delayed due to supply chain disruptions caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. This unfavourable delay will affect all countries that are currently participating in this program,” the embassy said in a statement.

The United States says it remains committed to supporting the modernization of the Bulgarian army.

The initial plan was for the first planes to arrive in Bulgaria in 2023 and the last ones in 2024. They cost €1.1 billion, which were prepaid. Bulgaria plans to buy eight more F 16 fighter jets from the US.

F-16 delivery for the Bulgarian army delayed by two years - Euractiv

The delivery of the eight F-16 fighters to the Bulgarian army will be delayed by two years, Prime Minister Kiril Petkov announced on 12 February. The prime minister explained that the reason for the delay was the Covid-19 pandemic and disrupted supplies. Bulgarian...

www.euractiv.com

So for Bulgaria that means:

2019 > Agreement
2023 > Original Delivery start
2025 > Expected Delivery start

And keep in mind at that time Bulgaria was the 3rd Costumer after Bahrain (16) and Slovakia (14) = 30 Aircraft in queue.

Now we are talking about a queue of at least 144 F-16s.

YES. But with all this in mind, for the prospective order of Turkish F16s, doesn’t that make it more feasible for LM to let TAI produce the planes under license, and then sell them back to TAF via FMS system, getting more profit quicker?

 

[Stuka]

YES. But with all this in mind, for the prospective order of Turkish F16s, doesn’t that make it more feasible for LM to let TAI produce the planes under license, and then sell them back to TAF via FMS system, getting more profit quicker?

I Guess so but certain issues remain.
Primarily LM isn't really transparent about the issue which is weird since the same company produces ca. 150 F-35s a year without problems.
Which leads me to believe that the problems might be significant and that could lead to questioning of quality in regards of the Final Product.

> TAI is likely not going to produce every part and since the Supply chain is disrupted this would stop TAI from Assembly.
> Does TAI even have enough Space or enough Staff to manage such an undertaking. Last time I checked they were hiring like crazy just to finish current projects

> F-16C/D Block 30 Structural Improvement Project is a rather smaller undertaking in which certain parts get exchanged with parts delivered by LM in order to extend the life of the Plane. Check the Dates

"The F-16 Block 30 Structural Improvement Project was initiated with the contract signed between the SSB and the Main Contractor TAI on 10 August 2015 in order to increase the fuselage life of 35 F-16C/D Block 30 Aircraft in HvKK inventory from 8,000 hours to 12,000 hours."
SSB announced on 25 July 2020 that the structural improvement of the first F-16 Block-30 Aircraft was completed and delivered to the Air Force Command

F-16C/D Blok 30 Yapısal İyileştirme Projesinde İlk Teslimat Gecikmeli de Olsa Yapıldı!

www.defenceturkey.com

5 Years of Contracting and Testing for a "Simple" Exchange of Replacement Parts I don't want to imagine how long a bigger assembly would take.

I am very pessimistic.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I Guess so but certain issues remain.
Primarily LM isn't really transparent about the issue which is weird since the same company produces ca. 150 F-35s a year without problems.
Which leads me to believe that the problems might be significant and that could lead to questioning of quality in regards of the Final Product.

> TAI is likely not going to produce every part and since the Supply chain is disrupted this would stop TAI from Assembly.
> Does TAI even have enough Space or enough Staff to manage such an undertaking. Last time I checked they were hiring like crazy just to finish current projects

> F-16C/D Block 30 Structural Improvement Project is a rather smaller undertaking in which certain parts get exchanged with parts delivered by LM in order to extend the life of the Plane. Check the Dates

"The F-16 Block 30 Structural Improvement Project was initiated with the contract signed between the SSB and the Main Contractor TAI on 10 August 2015 in order to increase the fuselage life of 35 F-16C/D Block 30 Aircraft in HvKK inventory from 8,000 hours to 12,000 hours."
SSB announced on 25 July 2020 that the structural improvement of the first F-16 Block-30 Aircraft was completed and delivered to the Air Force Command

F-16C/D Blok 30 Yapısal İyileştirme Projesinde İlk Teslimat Gecikmeli de Olsa Yapıldı!

www.defenceturkey.com

5 Years of Contracting and Testing for a "Simple" Exchange of Replacement Parts I don't want to imagine how long a bigger assembly would take.

I am very pessimistic.

The delays occurring in LM‘s F16 production line; Are they due to parts not being produced fast enough or is it because they do not have the manpower/production space for F16 orders? If it is the latter TAI production line - even if it is at a slow speed - will still be a better choice.
I know TAI is gearing up for Hurjet and T-929 production. But surely, after close to 300 F16s being produced under TAI roof, they should easily muster up a small production line for 40 new planes, like they did for the last 30 block 50+, few years back.
Of course the upgrading process of 80 planes to V70 level will be a big task too. But a lot of parts should be or will be available in house due to our preparation for Ozgur conversion.
As per the saying ; “If there is a will there is a way”.

ps to balance your pessimism I am trying to be an optimist!