TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[dBSPL]

So, the mentioned eurofighters are the second hand tranche 1's that will be modernised by us (to gain additional capabilites on different platform) or New tranche 4 fighters?

Limited two-seat Tranche 1 supply for OCU purposes. And most probably 2 squadrons of T3/T4 (maybe with +1/2 option). The EFs in the combatant squadrons will be able to use the full range of indigenous ordnance just like the F-4s. In other words, in a sense, the EF/Turkiye variant will replace the 54 F-4E 2020 Terminator aircrafts (although a significant number of them have now been withdrawn from the active inventory). Delegation talks on the F-35 will continue for many more years and it must have become clear that nothing will be achieved. It is possible that this is seen as a solution to this issue, as it is thought to be an EF purchase opportunity at the moment. Indeed, procuring aircraft from non-NATO sources involves enormous technical and political problems.

As fate would have it, in the 90s, when we were thinking of renewing the F-4E fleet, we again almost came to an agreement with the British. In fact, we were so far advanced in some technical and financial aspects that many people considered the Tornados certainty. Afterwards, the process somehow slowed down. Afterwards, offers were received from US manufacturers, but financial problems could not be overcome. And finally, the process that led to the F-4 modernization with IAI.

Let's see if an agreement with the British will be realized this time. I don't know the outcome, but this is the first time since the Tornado purchase negotiations that the defense ministries and air force staffs of the two countries have met so frequently.

 

[Oublious]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616450155875799040

Ther is something going on...

 

[Agha Sher]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616450155875799040

Ther is something going on...

A part of this deal should ensure the Turkish drones are exported to the UK. This would also upon up the entire western world as a market for Turkish drones.

 

[dBSPL]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616450155875799040

Ther is something going on...

The C-130Js are in very good condition and a real bargain opportunity.

 

[dBSPL]

A part of this deal should ensure the Turkish drones are exported to the UK. This would also upon up the entire western world as a market for Turkish drones.

Yes, negotiations are ongoing on this issue as well. As you know, last year, the British announced that Project Mosquito, which was part of the "Light Affordable New Fighter Aircraft" program, had been halted (in more technical terms, put under review).

Also, the British company Thales UK had previously developed an unmanned aerial vehicle called the Watchkeeper with the Israeli company Elbit Systems. Developed on the Israeli-made Hermes 450 UAV, Watchkeeper is struggling with many problems. Within the scope of the Watchkeeper Project, which has a budget of about two more than planned, 8 or 9 UAVs have crashed so far due to various technical reasons.

In short, the British are grappling with very serious problems in the localization process in many critical UAV programs. For this reason, the UK defense ministry has conducted a series of technical meetings and visits to both TAI and BAYKAR.

It would be speculation at this point, but if such a large-scale defense agreement is being negotiated between the British and Turkish defense ministries (more precisely, if a long-term alliance relationship is being negotiated), it is possible that part of this may involve effectively solving some of the UAV needs of the British in a much faster and smoother timeframe.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Negotiations for following aircrafts are continuing:

• Up to 48 EF (Considering the scope of the long negotiations, I guess that this number is for the new T3/4s. Used EFs can be purchased out of these 2 squadrons mentioned by sources.When the new production T3/4s are the subject, Meteors will also be on the agenda as a missile payload. ) - Acc to some sources, EF talks with UK are proceeding independently from F16V.
• 40 F16V : In congress approval phase
• F35 talks in third period (It is a period in which I think US carries out with political expectations regarding Syria and S400 and it is not seem possibe to have a positive outcome without making concessions)

 

[Heartbang]

OCU purposes

What is OCU?

 

[Brokengineer]

Limited two-seat Tranche 1 supply for OCU purposes. And most probably 2 squadrons of T3/T4 (maybe with +1/2 option). The EFs in the combatant squadrons will be able to use the full range of indigenous ordnance just like the F-4s. In other words, in a sense, the EF/Turkiye variant will replace the 54 F-4E 2020 Terminator aircrafts (although a significant number of them have now been withdrawn from the active inventory). Delegation talks on the F-35 will continue for many more years and it must have become clear that nothing will be achieved. It is possible that this is seen as a solution to this issue, as it is thought to be an EF purchase opportunity at the moment. Indeed, procuring aircraft from non-NATO sources involves enormous technical and political problems.

As fate would have it, in the 90s, when we were thinking of renewing the F-4E fleet, we again almost came to an agreement with the British. In fact, we were so far advanced in some technical and financial aspects that many people considered the Tornados certainty. Afterwards, the process somehow slowed down. Afterwards, offers were received from US manufacturers, but financial problems could not be overcome. And finally, the process that led to the F-4 modernization with IAI.

Let's see if an agreement with the British will be realized this time. I don't know the outcome, but this is the first time since the Tornado purchase negotiations that the defense ministries and air force staffs of the two countries have met so frequently.

If a big deal facilitated by those visits, it would be a way to further strengthen the ties between two countries. Turkiye would be good Place to service and modernize ef typhoons as a reliable cost effective maintainance center.
Eurofighters would be an improvement for the air defence of Turkiye against rafales.

 

[dBSPL]

What is OCU?

Typhoon(EF) operational conversion units. Role is to support preparation for the operational missions of a specific aircraft type by providing trained personnel.


*

One last anecdote about a possible EF purchase: Starting from 2015, Qatar ordered in two contract Meteor missiles to equip the Dassault Rafales (and later, for Typhoons) of the Qatar Emiri Air Force. According to the defense and security agreement between Qatar and the Turkish state, the Qatari Air Force's fighter jets and their associated ordnance and spare parts, as well as pilots and ground crew of several dozen personnel, will be permanently stationed at the air base in Konya 'for training purposes' until at least 2028 (36 aircrafts in rotation and 250 Qatari air force personnel were assigned to Konya airbase). If Turkiye will be dragged into a war, it is very likely to temporarily confiscate these jets and/or related systems, which the Qatari emirate would not look upon negatively if this will happen. Within the signed defense and security agreement, all these were probably negotiated and agreed upon in advance.

So, while the Greks are counting on a few dozen Meteor missiles and dreaming of shooting down Turkish aircrafts in a sudden attack scenario, if they embark on a senseless adventure, they could lose a large number of their aircrafts precisely with Meteor missiles. Of course, measures and doctrines are being developed to counter all the weapons and electronic systems in the hands of the adversary forces. But what I am referring to is the fact that this time there is no system left in Grek hands that the Turkish side cannot use in tactical training. For the adversary air force, however, the Turkish side's indigenous electronic and weapon systems are a huge unknown.

 

[Fairon]

Negotiations for following aircrafts are continuing:

• Up to 48 EF (Considering the scope of the long negotiations, I guess that this number is for the new T3/4s. Used EFs can be purchased out of these 2 squadrons mentioned by sources.When the new production T3/4s are the subject, Meteors will also be on the agenda as a missile payload. ) - Acc to some sources, EF talks with UK are proceeding independently from F16V.
• 40 F16V : In congress approval phase
• F35 talks in third period (It is a period in which I think US carries out with political expectations regarding Syria and S400 and it is not seem possibe to have a positive outcome without making concessions)

So if all goes well we will end up with additional F16's, EF2000, F35 and MMU.

It will be quite the contrast the situation we are in right now. We do like the extremes

 

[dBSPL]

So if all goes well we will end up with additional F16's, EF2000, F35 and MMU.

It will be quite the contrast the situation we are in right now. We do like the extremes

Ultimately: The Merlins (AW101s) for the Navy, and almost a swiss army knife C-130Js for the Air Force will ease the intensity of our systems in these classes and provide significant relief. I think that's where the most progress has been made.

But the extent to which the other speculated issues will be realized will be important markers for the next 10 years even 20 or more of how Turkish&British policy aligning. The EF acquisition has the potential to lead to significant changes, especially as it concerns the air force combat structure. However, it could also be the concrete starting point for an industrial cooperation on a scale that extends to the MMU and the British next-generation fighter jet program. To some extent, it could even lead to strong and ambitious cooperation in the field of UAVs.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

So if all goes well we will end up with additional F16's, EF2000, F35 and MMU.

It will be quite the contrast the situation we are in right now. We do like the extremes

Turkiye currently has a strategy and fleet structure that uses twin engine F4 as bombers and F16 as mainly air superiority fighters together. A transition period had been foreseen with F35 project and all preparations had been made in this direction. In this result, most of the missions undertaken by F4s would be undertaken by F35s and F16s would be replaced by TFX MMU which was launched as an air superiority aircraft first but unfair dismissal of our country from F35 project disrupted our 2030+ plans. As a result of this, TFX-MMU is now being developed as a multi role aircraft and it is expected to be passed to full operational capability (FOC) after 2030. In this context, there are many critical components such as sensors and engines that will continue to develop.

Meanwhile, serious investments are made in air forces around our country.

Greece:
84 F16V upgrade (Until 2027)
Additional old F16s to 52+ upgrade (In evaluation phase)
24 Rafale + 24 (option)
20+20 F35 (In Congress approval phase) (Until 2029/30)

Egypt:
54 Rafales
24 EF
24 Su-35 (Cancelled)

Israel:
F35I: 36
F15EX: 24

Iranian:
Su-35: 24 + ?

Russia:
Su-57 Serial production (Slow rate)


In line with developments around our country, it can be seen that it is a must according to this table to turn to interim solution 4+ generation aircrafts until at least 2-3 MMU squadrons are taken into the inventory and TFX MMU has FOC capability in order to guarantee the security of our country.

As F4s have reached end of their service life and additional modernization needs of our F16s (F16V and F16T upgrades), a wider fleet structure (Fighter drones+Manned fighters/bombers) against newly emerging threats/technologies have become an inevitable need for our AF so it is a must for our country to make these purchases as an interim solution as a continuation of deterrence until domestic solutions mature. Otherwise, we may face a madness and challenges in Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean. What we want as a leading country in our region is that this challenges against us must take place not at place and time enemy wants but under conditions that we want/foreseen so we have to prevent all pressures/threats/challenges that prevent strategic projects like TfX/Tf2000/Milden/NGFrigate/Istif/TTAB/HavaSoj/Siper/Gökhan/SOMNG/Gezgin/Cenk/Akbaba... from entering inventory with our deterrent power. The only way for this will be to invest more in AF with such precautions/solutions in this transition period.

 

[Bogeyman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616736473557991425

A delegation from Turkey will hold talks with US Senators and Representatives in the US in February for the procurement of F-16 Block 70.

 

[Zafer]

Current calculations of our Air Force do not give unmanned systems enough credit. For UCAV systems to be considered seriously the Kızılelma and Anka-3 need to make their first successes. Now that Kızılelma is already flying and Anka-3 is stretching its wings in preparation to a first flight it is likely that we will see what their initial contribution to our Air Force capabilities will be before the end of this year. We should not make any firm decision before we see them making their first hits and take a new look at the big picture after that.

 

[Khagan1923]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616736473557991425

A delegation from Turkey will hold talks with US Senators and Representatives in the US in February for the procurement of F-16 Block 70.

Feels weird to me to be jumping around hoops just for the F-16. if it was for the F-35 I would understand the effort put in but in my opinion we have done enough from our side in this procurement. We are talking about the F-16 in the end. Running after every wish just to get our hands on 40 F-16V, I don’t know.


If the EF is a real alternative a multi billion dollar deal should be signed with Britain as fast as possible including C-130J, Merlin, Meteor and transfer of second hand EF to the TAF. Participation of RR in the engine project for TF-X should be seriously discussed as well.

 

[Ryder]

Turkiye currently has a strategy and fleet structure that uses twin engine F4 as bombers and F16 as mainly air superiority fighters together. A transition period had been foreseen with F35 project and all preparations had been made in this direction. In this result, most of the missions undertaken by F4s would be undertaken by F35s and F16s would be replaced by TFX MMU which was launched as an air superiority aircraft first but unfair dismissal of our country from F35 project disrupted our 2030+ plans. As a result of this, TFX-MMU is now being developed as a multi role aircraft and it is expected to be passed to full operational capability (FOC) after 2030. In this context, there are many critical components such as sensors and engines that will continue to develop.

Meanwhile, serious investments are made in air forces around our country.

Greece:
84 F16V upgrade (Until 2027)
Additional old F16s to 52+ upgrade (In evaluation phase)
24 Rafale + 24 (option)
20+20 F35 (In Congress approval phase) (Until 2029/30)

Egypt:
54 Rafales
24 EF
24 Su-35 (Cancelled)

Iranian:
Su-35 order

Russia:
Su-57 Serial production (Slow rate)


In line with developments around our country, it can be seen that it is a must according to this table to turn to interim solution 4+ generation aircrafts until at least 2-3 MMU squadrons are taken into the inventory and TFX MMU has FOC capability in order to guarantee the security of our country.

As F4s have reached end of their service life and additional modernization needs of our F16s (F16V and F16T upgrades), a wider fleet structure (Fighter drones+Manned fighters/bombers) against newly emerging threats/technologies have become an inevitable need for our AF so it is a must for our country to make these purchases as an interim solution as a continuation of deterrence until domestic solutions mature. Otherwise, we may face a madness and challenges in Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean. What we want as a leading country in our region is that this challenges against us must take place not at place and time enemy wants but under conditions that we want/foreseen so we have to prevent all pressures/threats/challenges that prevent strategic projects like TfX/Tf2000/Milden/NGFrigate/Istif/TTAB/HavaSoj/Siper/Gökhan/SOMNG/Gezgin/Cenk/Akbaba... from entering inventory with our deterrent power. The only way for this will be to invest more in AF with such precautions/solutions in this transition period.

Basically its not all doom and gloom.

Turks literally will still have the best airforce in the region even without the F35.

But man imagine F35s, F16s, TFX and some eurofighters.

Looking at some hardcore shit if this happened.

Still Turkiye can maintain its parity of air superiority in the region.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Basically its not all doom and gloom.

Turks literally will still have the best airforce in the region even without the F35.

But man imagine F35s, F16s, TFX and some eurofighters.

Looking at some hardcore shit if this happened.

Still Turkiye can maintain its parity of air superiority in the region.

The subject of F35 contains complete nothingness for me. We may have to compromise politically in Syria, Libya maybe and is it worth it? No way. Even when we buy F35, it is not a platform that can give us right to use it freely against the states US don't want us to use them but I think that at least one of options from F16V and EF should be concluded positively because the momentum around us forces us to take interim measures in this transition phase until domestic solutions become operational and need to maintain a similar dynamism and power balance in AF arises. In this way, we will see that fighter drones that will enter the inventory in 2025 and MMU that will become IOC in 2029/30 will have a power multiplier effect over time. If F16 option is not accepted by congress, this time EF option will be stronger and the domestic upgrade option for F16s will be on the table and we will talk about upgrade of around 235 F16 with AESA radars, avionics and MCC...etc

 

[Brokengineer]

If Turkiye became US puppy, then we should be considering f35s to be in our inventory in future.
Otherwise, in the current disagreement with western policies, acqusition of f35s, which makes any f35 partners extremely dependent of US, does not make sense at all.
For any 5th (or 6th) gen fighters, Turkiye is on its own.
Until we Come up with tfx, we need to keep the fleet as strong as possible with the addition of 4+ fighters.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Westerners sneering at us with their threats and insults about F-35 is just tired at this point. It's the same energy with EU applicaton. EU one is waaay worse though because we genuinely don't care about that one anymore. After we find our interim solution this F-35 situation will not be that big of a deal anymore, either. It's a great plane, but not worth our independence and honor. Also it's a shackle. We can't defend against greeks with it, we can't use it against PKK. It would just fly on national fetivals so F that.

Personally, I find people who talk endlesly about greek air superiority to be alarmist. We don't build a world class layered air defense system for nothing. Who says it's going to be F-35 vs F-16? What is this a kindergarten karate class? If shit hits the fan, Turkish Armed Forces have the necessary -and very diversified- tools and training to keep those peons away.

One must remember, they got real cocky about 6 months ago. Their generals and strategists were talking about what basically is a decapitation strike. Then Tayfun missile got leaked. I'm sure we got some more stuff hidden.

 

[Fairon]

Maybe the F35 talks includes just F35B and parts production. That could also work for us.

Yes there is a question that wheter we can operate them independetly or not but it could be good for naval aviation progress and help us train naval aircraft operation.