TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Sanchez]

News regarding HvKK modernization. Writer didn't mention their source, so we do not know how good they are. Seems to usually track what's been officially mentioned in the last few months.

"As previously reported, Türkiye will not receive the Tranche 1 model of the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet in the UK Air Force fleet, but the latest variant, the Tranche 4. I recently learned two important pieces of information on this subject.

Firstly, if there are no other developments until the signing of the purchase agreement, Turkey will receive a total of 40 Eurofighters. However, since there are different variants of these aircraft; single-pilot/dual-pilot and models under development, we will learn the details after the agreement. There are already 4 models of this aircraft; Tranche (tranche) is defined as 1-2-3-4. Currently, the last model is Tranche 4, but Tranche 5 is also being developed. I don't know if Turkey will get the model under development.

...Considering that the delivery of Eurofighter Typhoons to be supplied by Turkey will begin in 2-3 years, it is certain that a part of the agreement will be Tranche 4. Time will show what kind of development will take place for the Eurofighter Tranche 5 model, which is much more equipped and has features similar to the fifth generation F-35.

It is also worth mentioning that the procurement of military transport aircraft from the UK, cooperation in the development of the national combat aircraft KAAN produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAŞ) and other issues are also on the table...

The second point is that the delivery of the aircraft will start in 2-3 years. Not only will the newest Eurofighter model be purchased, but it will also join the Turkish Air Force fleet in the first months of 2028 or earlier, probably earlier than the American Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 70s.

The agreement with the US for 40 F-16 Block 70 models has been finalized. With the talks being led by the UK, we will soon hear news of an agreement for the supply of 40 Eurofighter Tranche 4s. What remains is the controversial fifth-generation fighter jet agreement for 40 F-35s. There seems to be no problem in this regard during the term of US President Trump, but those wondering under which program Turkey will purchase these 3 warplanes at the same time will have to wait a little longer. Because it is stated that a new approach will be in question regarding procurement when the opportunity to purchase all 3 models arises.

Türkiye Eurofighter’ın en son modelini alacak!

Milli Muharip Savaş Uçağı (MMU) KAAN hizmete girinceye kadar Türkiye hava muharebe gücünü tahkim etmek için Eurofighter Typhoon savaş uçağı alımında son aşamaya gelmiş durumda. Avrupa'da dört ülkenin işbirliğiyle üretilen Eurofighter savaş uçağının satın alma görüşmelerine İngiltere öncülük...

www.haberturk.com

Because it is stated that a new approach will be in question regarding procurement when the opportunity to purchase all 3 models arises.
Zira 3 modeli de alma imkanı ortaya çıkınca tedarik konusunda yeni bir yaklaşımın söz konusu olacağı belirtiliyor.

I wonder what he means by that.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

If Turkey should really receive F-35s, it will no longer need F-16 Block 70s and the order should be canceled.
The F-16 as a weapon system will no longer play a role in the modern air combat doctrine of the 21st century in 15 years.
It is still a GEN 4 fighter no matter which block, It is also unlikely that there will be more blocks after Block 70 like Block 80/90.

The Eurofighter Tranche 4/5 or later LTE Version is a high performance multirole fighter of Gen 4.5+ it has a much lower RCS and probably a much better EW/ECM, comparable to the Rafale, which is almost invisible to radar or the enemy has great difficulty in detecting the aircraft because of the top notch ECM capabilities.

I know that Turkey ordered these planes because the fighter pilots can fly the F-16 in their sleep, and the infrastructure is already there.
Turkey is probably with Greece and maybe Israel the only country that can bring out the full potential of the plane as a pilot and bring it to its performance limit.

But if I had the choice, I would order 80 instead of 40 Eurofighters and give up the 40 F-16 Block 70 regardless of whether you get the F-35 or not.
It is the better fighter aircraft in all respects.

 

[Turkic]

If Turkey should really receive F-35s, it will no longer need F-16 Block 70s and the order should be canceled.
The F-16 as a weapon system will no longer play a role in the modern air combat doctrine of the 21st century in 15 years.
It is still a GEN 4 fighter no matter which block, It is also unlikely that there will be more blocks after Block 70 like Block 80/90.

The Eurofighter Tranche 4/5 or later LTE Version is a high performance multirole fighter of Gen 4.5+ it has a much lower RCS and probably a much better EW/ECM, comparable to the Rafale, which is almost invisible to radar or the enemy has great difficulty in detecting the aircraft because of the top notch ECM capabilities.

I know that Turkey ordered these planes because the fighter pilots can fly the F-16 in their sleep, and the infrastructure is already there.
Turkey is probably with Greece and maybe Israel the only country that can bring out the full potential of the plane as a pilot and bring it to its performance limit.

But if I had the choice, I would order 80 instead of 40 Eurofighters and give up the 40 F-16 Block 70 regardless of whether you get the F-35 or not.
It is the better fighter aircraft in all respects.

Again, there is no big air force in the world to give up on 4th gen jets yet. There are features where 5th gen jets still can not compete with 4th gens.

EF is a high-end fighter jet and it's position to be in the TurAF can not be filled by either F-16 or F-35. Nor the position of F-16's can be filled by either. Unfortunately, the Typhoon is too expensive and we can't afford to order 40 of them instead of 40 F-16's. That's already why F-16's place can not be filled by EF. It's purchase and operating costs are extremely high. Utanmasa it would compete with Raptor's.

The answer to why F-35 can't fill F-16's place is it's problems and rather high purchase and operating costs. And don't forget the fact that we will never be able to use F-35's against Greece (I don't believe we'll ever have an actual war in the next decades but gotta be ready) but we can operate our F-16's no matter what.

 

[bruhman]

The Eurofighter Tranche 4/5 or later LTE Version is a high performance multirole fighter of Gen 4.5+ it has a much lower RCS and probably a much better EW/ECM, comparable to the Rafale, which is almost invisible to radar or the enemy has great difficulty in detecting the aircraft because of the top notch ECM capabilities.

Rafale's supposed "active stealth" is nothing but marketing propaganda.

En combat air-air, l'aviation de chasse française tiendrait trois jours - l'Opinion

Un rapport, rédigé par des aviateurs, pointe les « vulnérabilités significatives » de la France en matière de « supériorité aérienne », décrivant les impasses technologiques, le manque de munitions et les incertitudes sur les programmes d'avenir

www.lopinion.fr

Paywalled article, but it's a report by 2 officers in armee de l'air. Basically says what everyone thought, that current sensors (in rafale) do not stand a chance against stealth fighters.

Dassault (and Saab..sometimes even Boeing) make up a lot of bullshit propaganda about how they're not even 4,5th gen but are actually closer to 5th gen because of their amazing, insane electronic warfare capabilities, playing up their hardware that everyone has an analogue of anyway. I would take anything Dassault says with a pinch of salt as they -along with Saab- make a lot of overly ambitious claims about how performant their jets are, fueled by either a want for exports or nationalism. Spectra isn't this magical silver bullet that equalizes 5th and 4th gens.

I would also take any claim about 4,5th gens having much lower RCS with a pinch of salt too. Typhoon's intakes are only partially serpentine (like a Felon) and it doesn't have a remotely clean shape. Plus, it never flies clean, fuel tanks and missiles easily add up. These jets were all made in a time period when stealth was just dreamed of and only Americans properly pursued it.

We want typhoons because it flies high, flies fast, has a good radar and slings proper BVRMs. It's a decent platform for air superiority (especially with our use of awacs) until Kaan is ready to serve with Gökhan, Gökdoğan and BUFRIS.

 

[Sanchez]

(especially with our use of awacs)

We will be the second ever to use E-7s with Typhoons. There'll be a lot to study together with the UK there.

Dassault (and Saab..sometimes even Boeing) make up a lot of bullshit propaganda about how they're not even 4,5th gen but are actually closer to 5th gen because of their amazing, insane electronic warfare capabilities

They have to, because they need to sell their products which lack the said very low observability features. No aircraft that carries its payload of 2 1000l tanks and 4 AAMs under its carriage can ever be called "stealth". By their design, Gripen, F-18, Rafale or EF-2000 would ever be called "stealth" aircraft. But, they can incorporate other 5th gen features, like a very good radar and very good sensor fusion, together with lowered RCS.

As you point out, companies always make claims for their products, but operators all have nothing to say but praise for F-35. Be it Korean, American, British, Japanese and most recently French as you linked it in every single report or interview with a pilot, F-35 is talked about as the literal best of the best and that past generations of aircraft simply don't even come close.

Our purchase of EF-2000s won't negate the threat of Greek and Israeli F-35s. We need more, more high performance aircraft, better missiles, much better radars and larger radar coverage on the ground, in air, at the sea.

Paywalled article

Full report is 100 pages long and it's open to the public but it's in French.

L’avenir de la supériorité aérienne. Maîtriser le ciel en haute intensité | Ifri

La supériorité aérienne, concept clé dans l’art de la guerre occidental, définit le degré de maîtrise de l’air dans un conflit armé. Condition nécessaire mais non suffisante à la victoire militaire, elle permet de concentrer les efforts aériens au profit des autres objectifs stratégiques et de...

www.ifri.org

 

[Strong AI]

Our purchase of EF-2000s won't negate the threat of Greek and Israeli F-35s. We need more, more high performance aircraft

Everything comes down to KAAN's indigenous engine for me. If we succeed, it will be a new era for our AF, if not, i see dark times ahead for our AF.

 

[Sanchez]

Everything comes down to KAAN's indigenous engine for me. If we succeed, it will be a new era for our AF, if not, i see dark times ahead for our AF.

True, but it doesn't end there. Even with its behemoth of a radar, Kaan will need external support to see the enemy very low visible aircraft first. All 5th gen aircraft do. It's more than just the engine, or just Kaan. Radar and SAM umbrella we need to build will probably just be hard and expensive to attain as building few squadrons of Kaans. F-35 and other next generation aircraft are just that good. It will be the same whether we buy F-35 or not as well.

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1894813413672657333

 

[bruhman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1894813413672657333

Bodes well for the spain deal. We've only signed an MOU yet, right? Hope the dude liked the jet. Wonder why they flew him on PT-1 though.

May he shill for us in whatever decisionmaking to come in Spain lmao

 

[fushkee]

Am I wrong or I saw Anka-3 accompanying them in one of the flir views.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Am I wrong or I saw Anka-3 accompanying them in one of the flir views.

No it was F-16

 

[Sanchez]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1894813413672657333

Now that's a sales demo. Carbo's hand gestures read to me like "it just goes!"

 

[Ripley]

Now that's a sales demo. Carbo's hand gestures read to me like "it just goes!"

Yeah he looked so enthusiastic

On a personal note, I‘ve never seen a formation flight with two air force commanders before.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Yeah he looked so enthusiastic

On a personal note, I‘ve never seen a formation flight with two air force commanders before.

In prototype aircraft, two of the highest commanders also shows the highest confidence in aircraft.

HÜRJET will prove to be a sales racket in four contingents and revenues from sales funds will open all doors to KAAN.