TR Imprisoning Istanbul mayor and it’s ramifications for defence industry

Ryder

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The disturbing behaviour by the Turkish president is a blatant attack on democracy. If the leader of a democratic state prevents candidates from standing for election by locking them up or disqualifying them, that is an attack on democracy.

Unfortunately for the Turkish air force the UK public likes democracy. It does not like states that lock up journalists, either. Difficult to know but it is not impossible that Brits will choose to support the people of Turkey demonstrating against Erdogan's attack on democracy. Those Brits may press the UK government to suspend arms supply to Turkiye. I don't know how the German public will see things.

The new UK government is re-assessing UK defence needs. In view of the unfriendly words and actions of the new US president (eg attacking Canada, which shares its king with the UK), the UK may order more Eurofighters rather than more F-35. That would give the UK Eurofighter assembly plant work for years and make a Turkish order less important.

What is certain is that by locking up the democratically elected mayor of Istanbul Erdogan has made it less likely that Turkiye will be receiving Eurofighter.

UK and the USA have no problem with Gaza getting glassed and 50K people getting obliterated.

But somehow you people have the audacity to cry Democracy and Human rights.

Its even more hilarious how Westerners and Europeans tie Weapon sales to human rights.

They kill people you really think a bomb chooses who it targets?
 

Spitfire9

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UK and the USA have no problem with Gaza getting glassed and 50K people getting obliterated.

But somehow you people have the audacity to cry Democracy and Human rights.
I agree that Israel appears to be seen as a special case by many countries, allowed to commit whatever war crimes it chooses. I find it shameful that the UK does not stand against this behaviour more actively.

I object to my country being involved in arms supply to Israel due to its abuses of human rights. I also object to my country being involved in arms supply to regimes intent on denying their citizens the rights that typify a democracy including the freedom of citizens to choose their political representatives, the freedom of citizens to express dissent etc. Erdogan appears intent on stamping out functioning democracy in Turkiye. Yes, I am opposed to the appalling actions of Israel in Gaza. I am also opposed to the appalling actions of Erdogan in Turkiye.
 

Zoth

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I agree that Israel appears to be seen as a special case by many countries, allowed to commit whatever war crimes it chooses. I find it shameful that the UK does not stand against this behaviour more actively.

I object to my country being involved in arms supply to Israel due to its abuses of human rights. I also object to my country being involved in arms supply to regimes intent on denying their citizens the rights that typify a democracy including the freedom of citizens to choose their political representatives, the freedom of citizens to express dissent etc. Erdogan appears intent on stamping out functioning democracy in Turkiye. Yes, I am opposed to the appalling actions of Israel in Gaza. I am also opposed to the appalling actions of Erdogan in Turkiye.
oh come on mate, democracy this democracy that, it's an old trend, thanks to Europe and the USA the word democracy lost it's meaning a long time ago. We see how democracy works in European countries when some countries remove and arrest a possible winning candidate just because they are close to right wing.
 

Yasar_TR

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oh come on mate, democracy this democracy that, it's an old trend, thanks to Europe and the USA the word democracy lost it's meaning a long time ago. We see how democracy works in European countries when some countries remove and arrest a possible winning candidate just because they are close to right wing.
In true sense of democracy no such thing should be allowed to occur. Can you give an example in Western Europe where it has taken place please?

As members of public and humanity, we need a point of reference to measure how just the world we live in is. Democracy is that point of reference. Whether it is used properly or not, it is the reference point we need.

Apart from Russia where the President becomes prime minister and transfers all presidential powers to himself prior to being elected; then next term, transfers them back again when he is president. (Also presumably heavy manipulation of vote counting taking place.)
Apart from Azerbaijan, where power is transferred from father to son.

In Western Europe, there is no democracy that would allow anything similar to what is happening in Turkey. Irrespective of the Western Europeans’ two faced and one sided diplomacy, when it comes to democratic principles, they are firmly in place.

Just check the level of perception of corruption index and see where Turkey is. 107th amongst 180 countries.


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Sorry to have digressed from the thread topic; But @Spitfire9 has a valid point here. If those two faced westerners are really democratic, we may have a problem in our hands when it comes to Typhoon purchase.
If Turkey’s value for them as a major army against Russia is not more important than their democracy, we may have a prickly road in front of us.
 
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Spitfire9

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oh come on mate, democracy this democracy that, it's an old trend, thanks to Europe and the USA the word democracy lost it's meaning a long time ago. We see how democracy works in European countries when some countries remove and arrest a possible winning candidate just because they are close to right wing.
You have your views on democracy. I have my mine, which I have shared with my prime minister regarding the supply of Eurofighter to Turkiye.

I will credit the Turkish political leadership with one thing - Turkish forces have clearly not been authorised to use lethal force against the thousands in the streets expressing their opposition to Erdogan's attack on their democracy. I hope UK forces will be as restrained in dealing with demonstrators in the streets should the UK PM imprison his principal political rival.
 

Zoth

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You have your views on democracy. I have my mine, which I have shared with my prime minister regarding the supply of Eurofighter to Turkiye.

I will credit the Turkish political leadership with one thing - Turkish forces have clearly not been authorised to use lethal force against the thousands in the streets expressing their opposition to Erdogan's attack on their democracy. I hope UK forces will be as restrained in dealing with demonstrators in the streets should the UK PM imprison his principal political rival.
And i again i'm repeating what i said, those words have no meanings because they are not honest in goverment levels, i don't doubt you have honest views while stating those as a person about democracy, but certain countries can't talk about democracy one day and stage a coup in a random country the next day. I'm in no way in support of what is happening in Turkey nor do i like Erdogan due to my ideological views, but the hypocrisy is out there.
 

TR_123456

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I said that what is happening inside Turkiye makes the supply of Eurofighter less likely. Do you think that the supply of Eurofighter to Turkiye is as likely as it was before Erdogan locked up the mayor of Istanbul?

Funny how a university qualification awarded some time ago was suddenly 'withdrawn'. They must have suddenly decided to remark his papers and after all these years decided his qualification had been mistakenly awarded to him, mustn't they? That was the qualification required to stand for election to be president, wasn't it? What a coincidence!

President Erdogan is making himself look like a would be tin pot dictator who wants to preside over a democracy in name but a tin pot dictatorship in reality.
In a threat(Russia,economy) situations they dont give a fuck about democracy,dictatorship,human rights etc.
Take Saudi Arabia,UAE etc as examples.
 

Turkic

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I'd like to add that it's not just about diploma. Please deeply search for why those people were arrested. Keywords: terrorism, financing
 

Spitfire9

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I'd like to add that it's not just about diploma. Please deeply search for why those people were arrested. Keywords: terrorism, financing
I am not really in a position to research those pretexts for arrest. Don't speak Turkish and even if I did, the press is largely in Erdogan's pocket, isn't it? Hearing that journalists who oppose Erdogan are arrested in Turkiye also means that I would not be able to hear both sides of the story.
 

Barry

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The UK routinely denies the rights of it's citizens. If you know anyone that needed the welfare state you know they've suffered trying to get assistance as is their right.
 

godel44

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In true sense of democracy no such thing should be allowed to occur. Can you give an example in Western Europe where it has taken place please?

As members of public and humanity, we need a point of reference to measure how just the world we live in is. Democracy is that point of reference. Whether it is used properly or not, it is the reference point we need.

Apart from Russia where the President becomes prime minister and transfers all presidential powers to himself prior to being elected; then next term, transfers them back again when he is president. (Also presumably heavy manipulation of vote counting taking place.)
Apart from Azerbaijan, where power is transferred from father to son.

In Western Europe, there is no democracy that would allow anything similar to what is happening in Turkey. Irrespective of the Western Europeans’ two faced and one sided diplomacy, when it comes to democratic principles, they are firmly in place.

Just check the level of perception of corruption index and see where Turkey is. 107th amongst 180 countries.


View attachment 74222

Sorry to have digressed from the thread topic; But @Spitfire9 has a valid point here. If those two faced westerners are really democratic, we may have a problem in our hands when it comes to Typhoon purchase.
If Turkey’s value for them as a major army against Russia is not more important than their democracy, we may have a prickly road in front of us.
Since you asked for an example, Biden tried to have Trump arrested. Not to mention all the pardons he granted to his family members. Weaponization of the Justice Department is a common topic in the US these days with many examples to choose from. In Europe we saw the cancellation of the election in Romania and then banning of the winning candidate from running again. While Romania is not Western Europe, it was applauded by Western European countries. JD Vance was right about Europe becoming more and more authoritarian. The UK, to give an example about where our friend is writing from, arrests people for posts on social media or for praying outside abortion clinics. It just banned Apple’s end to end encryption so it can access private data of its citizens, a first in the world. Whatever you think of Turkeys faults - and I might agree about most - they don’t have it much better.

Our friend here has - as he admitted - no information about the subject he is talking about, has no clue whether the corruption charges are valid or not, and fed by the same media that has not written anything true about Turkey for years, he has felt the need to threaten us with not selling weapons as if we don’t see how they got scared like little girls when they realized they lost American support.

So he is scolding us about a subject he knows nothing about, to defend values his country doesn’t have with leverage he severely lacks. Sorry, I don’t buy it.
 

Spitfire9

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The UK routinely denies the rights of it's citizens. If you know anyone that needed the welfare state you know they've suffered trying to get assistance as is their right.
Agreed, the UK fails to provide the social services it has promised to supply to its people. With respect, I do not see that as anywhere near as serious as trying to undermine the UK's democracy.

If you think about it, a political party with a majority in the national assembly could pass a law banning all other political parties in the hope of remaining in power forever. British politicians don't want that. They think that a system in which other parties question and query the government's policies and actions is preferable. Erdogan thinks otherwise, doesn't he? For that reason I don't want to see British military aircraft sent to strengthen a government determined to end democracy as it is normally understood - a political system in which people who might beat you in an election are entitled to stand against you.
 
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Turkic

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I am not really in a position to research those pretexts for arrest. Don't speak Turkish and even if I did, the press is largely in Erdogan's pocket, isn't it? Hearing that journalists who oppose Erdogan are arrested in Turkiye also means that I would not be able to hear both sides of the story.

I don't have time to tell the story in detail, but a mayor in Istanbul (not İmamoğlu) was under investigation by all relevant institutions for financing terrorist organizations in Syria and Iraq with money from the municipal budget, which is funded by the government with our taxes. While you are always accusing Erdoğan of stealing our taxes, this mayor did not just steal; he provided this money to terrorist organizations harming us. We learned about this situation right after the elections, but the investigation continued to find all those involved in this job. Now, including İmamoğlu, 51 are under arrest and another 41 are set for trial.

There's no both sides of the story at all. Erdoğan would not put İmamoğlu in jail to prevent him from joining the next presidential elections. Erdoğan himself was jailed before becoming PM. Do you think he doesn't know that jailing someone only boosts that person's standing in elections ? He knows this better than anyone.
 

Spitfire9

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Our friend here has - as he admitted - no information about the subject he is talking about, has no clue whether the corruption charges are valid or not, and fed by the same media that has not written anything true about Turkey for years...
How would anyone know what is going on in a country where the press is not free?

1 I support a free press.
2 I support free elections.
3 I am opposed to people being detained if they are opposed to governments.

By the way, I was detained for 18 months in a one party dictatorship. Not for political reasons but because I had a contract to provide a service to that government which included a clause saying that I would be paid for that service. For many months the government did not pay so eventually I said that, due to their breach of contract, I was terminating my services. Anyone here ever tried living and working in a foreign country when you have no income? Not practical. After that I was denied an exit visa until eventually a new UK ambassador turned up who, wanting to start his service without outstanding diplomatic problems, persuaded the regime to give me an exit visa.

I just love authoritarian regimes! Wouldn't wish one on any country.
 
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boredaf

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Biden tried to have Trump arrested. Not to mention all the pardons he granted to his family members.
He didn't, that is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. DoJ was investigating Trump, rightfully, for his role in January 6 insurrection AND having highly classified documents in his fucking bathroom in his publicly accessible club. And the only reason he pardoned his family was because Trump quite literally talked about going after them during his campaign multiple times. It wasn't tactful, but it wasn't because he was trying to hide something. Even Hunter Biden's trial and sentence was blown way out of proportion because of who he was, there were multiple examples given at the time how his case would've turned out if it wasn't politicized because it was just about owning a gun and nothing else.

Two things are very fucking different and you've clearly fell hard for some US right wing nutjob lies mate.
 

godel44

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He didn't, that is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. DoJ was investigating Trump, rightfully, for his role in January 6 insurrection AND having highly classified documents in his fucking bathroom in his publicly accessible club. And the only reason he pardoned his family was because Trump quite literally talked about going after them during his campaign multiple times. It wasn't tactful, but it wasn't because he was trying to hide something. Even Hunter Biden's trial and sentence was blown way out of proportion because of who he was, there were multiple examples given at the time how his case would've turned out if it wasn't politicized because it was just about owning a gun and nothing else.

Two things are very fucking different and you've clearly fell hard for some US right wing nutjob lies mate.
Everybody is entitled to their wrong opinion and you are clearly using that right fully. My point was that Western countries have their own authoritarian tendencies and if you are of the rabid US Democrat variety as your post indicates, you might agree with me that Trump exhibits authoritarianism as well.
 

boredaf

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Everybody is entitled to their wrong opinion and you are clearly using that right fully. My point was that Western countries have their own authoritarian tendencies and if you are of the rabid US Democrat variety as your post indicates, you might agree with me that Trump exhibits authoritarianism as well.
Your reading comprehension needs work mate. Trump broke the law, period. If you even question this, you're either woefully uninformed of what happened, or, wilfully ignorant to believe lies about it. It wasn't Biden, as you suggested, but it was Department of Justice that investigated him, as it is their job to do so, there was nothing authoritarian about it at all. What is happening in Turkey right now and what happened in US then has no similarity whatsoever.

Trump is an authoritarian, and Republicans are his enablers. If that wasn't so, he would've been impeached and removed from office in his first term, and imprisoned before his second even started. You don't incite an insurrection and even worse, steal and possibly sell some of the highest classified documents and not break laws.
 

hugh

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I think we should wait and see. I think the economic woes Türkiye is in is going to hit those new fighterjets hard. I am pretty sure that many of these defense projects are going to slow down a lot. Without an economy no serial production.
the fucking CB has burned $28billions in four days. If it continued like this, I'd be surprised if we had any dollars to pay our energy imports, let alone buying any expensive fighter jets.

 

Spitfire9

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the fucking CB has burned $28billions in four days. If it continued like this, I'd be surprised if we had any dollars to pay our energy imports, let alone buying any expensive fighter jets.

True, a lot of foreign exchange gone on stabilising the lira. As you say, countries will not be selling fighters for lira, so the CB would have to find more foreign exchange.

I wonder how dependent is Turkiye on tourism for FX? Images like these are not going to help bookings

 

I_Love_F16

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I'd like to add that it's not just about diploma. Please deeply search for why those people were arrested. Keywords: terrorism, financing

Good, Erdogan is exactly in this category, and even worse than that. So he should be in jail like Ekrem Imamoglu, right ? Please answer this question.
 

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