Turkish American relationship

[Melkor]

"Yes this whole Tayyip is the leader of the radical islamists who threaten to bring an apocalypse upon all non-Muslims if the west doesn’t prop up the unshaven she-Kurds of north Syria is getting boring and tiring. Lefties and Rightwing, Ruskies and Yanks - they are all the same pile of excrement when it comes to spreading this type of misinformation around the last decade or so."

Literally there. Not hateful for hateful people like you since it's your normal. For everyone else, clear example of hateful comments.

If it’s hateful the mods can delete it.

 

[Sycarion]

Your post is purely one sided view. Turkey launched its operations in Northern Syria because of imminent danger for terrorist attacks by the YPG. Before the Turkish Armed Forces launched the operations there were deadly rocket attacks and tunnel networks from Northern Syria were used in transfer of manpower and logistics to PKK when in 2015/2016 PKK started its operations in the cities.

In the case of Azerbaijan it just recaptured its lands from an occupier. According to UNSC resolutions Armenia had to pull back its forces long ago but instead they just stayed there and started settling mainland Armenians in Karabakh. In a country of near 10 million in Azerbaijan 1 million and 200.000 people are refugees who were living in Karabakh pre-occupation. Ballistic missiles were fired on militarily important targets like bridges and police HQs. We saw very clearly the damage Armenian ballistic missiles done in the city of Ganja and saw footage of Scud and Iskender missiles fired towards Azerbaijan. Footages from both sides pointed atrocities on the ground committed by soldiers. Azerbaijan launched investigation for war crimes committed by its soldiers. Did the Armenian side launched such? I can show you tens of videos of Armenian soldier's atrocities if you have the gut to watch.

All of the military interventions Turkey launched were needed and the problem in you people living in the West is that you care only about your security concerns without thinking about other countries. Mazlum Abdi of YPG is a PKK terrorist. YPG is clearly the Syrian wing of PKK even certain US officials said so. Instead of cooperating with its NATO ally the US instead cooperated with a terrorist organization which spilled blood of Turkish security personnel and civilians with US supplied arms in 2015/2016.

The reply of that guy is not the popular opinion of Turks. Another big mistake that you people living in the West are doing is the lack of understanding of the whole Turkish-Kurdish situation and also the lack of understanding that PKK is not representing the Kurds just as ISIS is not representing the Muslims. In the Turkish security forces there are many Kurds on active duty fighting PKK. Turkey also have many politicians including ministers and other important posts occupied by Kurds. The military operations of the Turkish Armed Forces are not aimed at the Kurds but at terrorist organizations which doesn't have any ethnicity or religion. Turks and Kurds are brothers and everybody that tries to stand between our brotherhood will face consequences whatever its name or location.

This is absolutely non-effective approach at combating terrorism. I am suggesting you reading the annual reports of EUROPOL regarding PKK terrorist organization's activities including organized crime networks and see that the countries in EU are with tied hands behind their back. They can't do nothing or don't want to do nothing about the eradication of these networks which also are responsible for recruiting of mountain cadres to fight in Northern Iraq.

I will respond to these accusations with the words of the ex-President of Armenia Serj Sarkisyan revealed by Thomas de Waal in one of his works as prominent expert on the Nagorno Karabakh issue: "Before Khojaly, Azerbaijanis thought we were joking, they thought that Armenians would not raise their hands against the civilian population. We managed to break this and that's the thing. At the same time, we must understand that among those young men there were also those who fled from Baku and Sumgait."

In the Khojaly massacre 613 Azerbaijanis were massacred according to Azerbaijani sources including men, women and children when their "humanitarian corridor" which they had to use for evacuation was cut off by Armenian military and para-military organizations.

Should we conclude that this is the Armenian State policy?

You can say "Azerbaijan it just recaptured its lands from an occupier" but there are also videos of Azerbaijan literally launching balistic missiles on to armenian civilian settlements. Both sides commited war crimes but Azerbaijan started the warwith the intent of at the very least eliminating armenians in the area.

Yes, official stance because multiple top politicians of Azerbaijan have had this stance constantly over the years:

• Azerbaijani Defense Minister Safar Abiyev's spokesman in 2004, stated that "Within the next 25 years there will be no state of Armenia in the South Caucasus. These people ... have no right to live in this region. Modern Armenia was built on historical Azerbaijani lands. I think that in 25–30 years its territory will again come under Azerbaijan's jurisdiction."
• The mayor of Baku, Hajibala Abutalybov during at a meeting with a municipal delegation from Bavaria, Germany stated: "Our goal is the complete elimination of Armenians. You, Nazis, already eliminated the Jews in the 1930s and 40s, right? You should be able to understand us."
• Victor Krivopuskov, at the time an officer of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR and a member of a peacekeeping mission in Nagorno-Karabakh gives the following assessment of Azerbaijan's current state policy: "The criminals are promoted to the rank of heroes, monuments are erected on their burial places, which comes to prove that the government of Azerbaijan actually continues the policy of genocide which was initiated at the end of the 19th and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
• President Ilham Aliyev has made multiple of those statements:
  • He said that the capital of Armenia Yerevan "was a gift to the Armenians in 1918. This was a great mistake. The Iravan khanate was Azerbaijani land, the Armenians were guests here."​
  • "...there are forces that don't like us, our detractors. They can be divided into several groups. First, our main enemies are Armenians of the world and the hypocritical and corrupt politicians under their control."​
  • "Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands."​
  • "We will continue our efforts to isolate Armenia. This policy is working. We see its results."​
  • "The Armenian lobby is our main enemy and we are the main enemy for them."​
  • "Azerbaijan grows stronger and more powerful by the year, while Armenia weakens and declines every year."​
  • "The Armenian barbarians and vandals have razed the city of Agdam to the ground. The ruins of the city of Agdam are clearly visible from here."​
  • "Azerbaijan's state flag should be waved in Shusha, Khankendi and Azerbaijanis should live in their historical lands in future. Our historical lands are Irevan khanate, Goyce and Zangazur regions. There will be times; we will live in these lands."​
  • "Armenia is not even a colony, it is not even worthy of being a servant"​

He praised Ramil Safarov, a psychopath who murdered an Armenian Lieutenant by breaking into his room, attacking with an axe and almost decapitating him. Someone who said things like:

"I regret that I hadn't killed any Armenian before this. The army sent me to this training and here I learnt that two Armenians were taking the same course with us. I must say that hatred against Armenians grew inside me. In the beginning we were greeting each other, or rather they said "hi" to me but I didn't respond. The reason why I committed the murder was that they passed by and smiled in our face. At that moment I decided to kill them, i.e. to saw their heads off..."

And he praised him, saying "Azerbaijan has returned Ramil Safarov—its officer to homeland, given him freedom and restored the justice."

When they continually say things like this publicly, then yes, I think we can say that this is the official stance of Azerbaijan coming into the conflict.

As for your quote on Sarkisian, this is what he actually said in full: “Before Khojalu, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We needed to put a stop to all that. And that’s what happened. And we should also take into account that amongst those boys were people who had fled from [the anti-Armenian pogroms in] Baku and Sumgait.”

Yes, they massacred the Azeris in that event. Yes, that is undeniably wrong. You could argue that they were hunting down the people fleeing after causing anti-armenian pogroms in Baku and Sumgait. But two wrongs don't make a right. And unlike Nein and unfortunately apparently you too, I don't excuse a genocide using another genocide.

So yes, I'm definitely sure that not supporting Azerbaijan's actions is the correct stance for any country.

As for the PKK, we can debate with no end whether it's wrong or right or whatever. It will never end because you, Nein, and Melkor are from Turkey and I'm a catholic indonesian in Germany. We have our own biases, we have our own point of views. But I don't believe in imprisoning people who might just be related to the PKK in Germany. If they don't commit any crime or violence, not my issue. If they were proven to recruit terrorists or whatnot, the german government has taken actions like banning the PKK publishing houses, and will continue to do so in the future. But otherwise, we have freedom of speech in Germany.

 

[CAN_TR]

PKK protests in Vienna for example were dissolved by Turks the Police watched and did nothing, you don't want conflict in Europe than stop supporting those provocations by ignoring it.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Please stay on topic!

 

[Kartal1]

You can say "Azerbaijan it just recaptured its lands from an occupier" but there are also videos of Azerbaijan literally launching balistic missiles on to armenian civilian settlements. Both sides commited war crimes but Azerbaijan started the warwith the intent of at the very least eliminating armenians in the area.

Yes, official stance because multiple top politicians of Azerbaijan have had this stance constantly over the years:

• Azerbaijani Defense Minister Safar Abiyev's spokesman in 2004, stated that "Within the next 25 years there will be no state of Armenia in the South Caucasus. These people ... have no right to live in this region. Modern Armenia was built on historical Azerbaijani lands. I think that in 25–30 years its territory will again come under Azerbaijan's jurisdiction."
• The mayor of Baku, Hajibala Abutalybov during at a meeting with a municipal delegation from Bavaria, Germany stated: "Our goal is the complete elimination of Armenians. You, Nazis, already eliminated the Jews in the 1930s and 40s, right? You should be able to understand us."
• Victor Krivopuskov, at the time an officer of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR and a member of a peacekeeping mission in Nagorno-Karabakh gives the following assessment of Azerbaijan's current state policy: "The criminals are promoted to the rank of heroes, monuments are erected on their burial places, which comes to prove that the government of Azerbaijan actually continues the policy of genocide which was initiated at the end of the 19th and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
• President Ilham Aliyev has made multiple of those statements:
  • He said that the capital of Armenia Yerevan "was a gift to the Armenians in 1918. This was a great mistake. The Iravan khanate was Azerbaijani land, the Armenians were guests here."​
  • "...there are forces that don't like us, our detractors. They can be divided into several groups. First, our main enemies are Armenians of the world and the hypocritical and corrupt politicians under their control."​
  • "Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands."​
  • "We will continue our efforts to isolate Armenia. This policy is working. We see its results."​
  • "The Armenian lobby is our main enemy and we are the main enemy for them."​
  • "Azerbaijan grows stronger and more powerful by the year, while Armenia weakens and declines every year."​
  • "The Armenian barbarians and vandals have razed the city of Agdam to the ground. The ruins of the city of Agdam are clearly visible from here."​
  • "Azerbaijan's state flag should be waved in Shusha, Khankendi and Azerbaijanis should live in their historical lands in future. Our historical lands are Irevan khanate, Goyce and Zangazur regions. There will be times; we will live in these lands."​
  • "Armenia is not even a colony, it is not even worthy of being a servant"​

He praised Ramil Safarov, a psychopath who murdered an Armenian Lieutenant by breaking into his room, attacking with an axe and almost decapitating him. Someone who said things like:

"I regret that I hadn't killed any Armenian before this. The army sent me to this training and here I learnt that two Armenians were taking the same course with us. I must say that hatred against Armenians grew inside me. In the beginning we were greeting each other, or rather they said "hi" to me but I didn't respond. The reason why I committed the murder was that they passed by and smiled in our face. At that moment I decided to kill them, i.e. to saw their heads off..."

And he praised him, saying "Azerbaijan has returned Ramil Safarov—its officer to homeland, given him freedom and restored the justice."

When they continually say things like this publicly, then yes, I think we can say that this is the official stance of Azerbaijan coming into the conflict.

As for your quote on Sarkisian, this is what he actually said in full: “Before Khojalu, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We needed to put a stop to all that. And that’s what happened. And we should also take into account that amongst those boys were people who had fled from [the anti-Armenian pogroms in] Baku and Sumgait.”

Yes, they massacred the Azeris in that event. Yes, that is undeniably wrong. You could argue that they were hunting down the people fleeing after causing anti-armenian pogroms in Baku and Sumgait. But two wrongs don't make a right. And unlike Nein and unfortunately apparently you too, I don't excuse a genocide using another genocide.

So yes, I'm definitely sure that not supporting Azerbaijan's actions is the correct stance for any country.

As for the PKK, we can debate with no end whether it's wrong or right or whatever. It will never end because you, Nein, and Melkor are from Turkey and I'm a catholic indonesian in Germany. We have our own biases, we have our own point of views. But I don't believe in imprisoning people who might just be related to the PKK in Germany. If they don't commit any crime or violence, not my issue. If they were proven to recruit terrorists or whatnot, the german government has taken actions like banning the PKK publishing houses, and will continue to do so in the future. But otherwise, we have freedom of speech in Germany.

You can say "Azerbaijan it just recaptured its lands from an occupier" but there are also videos of Azerbaijan literally launching balistic missiles on to armenian civilian settlements. Both sides commited war crimes but Azerbaijan started the warwith the intent of at the very least eliminating armenians in the area.

Yes, official stance because multiple top politicians of Azerbaijan have had this stance constantly over the years:

• Azerbaijani Defense Minister Safar Abiyev's spokesman in 2004, stated that "Within the next 25 years there will be no state of Armenia in the South Caucasus. These people ... have no right to live in this region. Modern Armenia was built on historical Azerbaijani lands. I think that in 25–30 years its territory will again come under Azerbaijan's jurisdiction."
• The mayor of Baku, Hajibala Abutalybov during at a meeting with a municipal delegation from Bavaria, Germany stated: "Our goal is the complete elimination of Armenians. You, Nazis, already eliminated the Jews in the 1930s and 40s, right? You should be able to understand us."
• Victor Krivopuskov, at the time an officer of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR and a member of a peacekeeping mission in Nagorno-Karabakh gives the following assessment of Azerbaijan's current state policy: "The criminals are promoted to the rank of heroes, monuments are erected on their burial places, which comes to prove that the government of Azerbaijan actually continues the policy of genocide which was initiated at the end of the 19th and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
• President Ilham Aliyev has made multiple of those statements:
  • He said that the capital of Armenia Yerevan "was a gift to the Armenians in 1918. This was a great mistake. The Iravan khanate was Azerbaijani land, the Armenians were guests here."​
  • "...there are forces that don't like us, our detractors. They can be divided into several groups. First, our main enemies are Armenians of the world and the hypocritical and corrupt politicians under their control."​
  • "Armenia as a country is of no value. It is actually a colony, an outpost run from abroad, a territory artificially created on ancient Azerbaijani lands."​
  • "We will continue our efforts to isolate Armenia. This policy is working. We see its results."​
  • "The Armenian lobby is our main enemy and we are the main enemy for them."​
  • "Azerbaijan grows stronger and more powerful by the year, while Armenia weakens and declines every year."​
  • "The Armenian barbarians and vandals have razed the city of Agdam to the ground. The ruins of the city of Agdam are clearly visible from here."​
  • "Azerbaijan's state flag should be waved in Shusha, Khankendi and Azerbaijanis should live in their historical lands in future. Our historical lands are Irevan khanate, Goyce and Zangazur regions. There will be times; we will live in these lands."​
  • "Armenia is not even a colony, it is not even worthy of being a servant"​

He praised Ramil Safarov, a psychopath who murdered an Armenian Lieutenant by breaking into his room, attacking with an axe and almost decapitating him. Someone who said things like:

"I regret that I hadn't killed any Armenian before this. The army sent me to this training and here I learnt that two Armenians were taking the same course with us. I must say that hatred against Armenians grew inside me. In the beginning we were greeting each other, or rather they said "hi" to me but I didn't respond. The reason why I committed the murder was that they passed by and smiled in our face. At that moment I decided to kill them, i.e. to saw their heads off..."

And he praised him, saying "Azerbaijan has returned Ramil Safarov—its officer to homeland, given him freedom and restored the justice."

When they continually say things like this publicly, then yes, I think we can say that this is the official stance of Azerbaijan coming into the conflict.

As for your quote on Sarkisian, this is what he actually said in full: “Before Khojalu, the Azerbaijanis thought that they were joking with us, they thought that the Armenians were people who could not raise their hand against the civilian population. We needed to put a stop to all that. And that’s what happened. And we should also take into account that amongst those boys were people who had fled from [the anti-Armenian pogroms in] Baku and Sumgait.”

Yes, they massacred the Azeris in that event. Yes, that is undeniably wrong. You could argue that they were hunting down the people fleeing after causing anti-armenian pogroms in Baku and Sumgait. But two wrongs don't make a right. And unlike Nein and unfortunately apparently you too, I don't excuse a genocide using another genocide.

So yes, I'm definitely sure that not supporting Azerbaijan's actions is the correct stance for any country.

As for the PKK, we can debate with no end whether it's wrong or right or whatever. It will never end because you, Nein, and Melkor are from Turkey and I'm a catholic indonesian in Germany. We have our own biases, we have our own point of views. But I don't believe in imprisoning people who might just be related to the PKK in Germany. If they don't commit any crime or violence, not my issue. If they were proven to recruit terrorists or whatnot, the german government has taken actions like banning the PKK publishing houses, and will continue to do so in the future. But otherwise, we have freedom of speech in Germany.

There are many such uses of words by both Azerbaijani and Armenian politicians including military figures. In the case of Ramil Seferov he got his sentence, got extradited and due to the political situation was made a hero.

There is no genocide in Karabakh. If there was such the humanitarian corridors were not going to be there. Azerbaijan publicly announced that the State will not force the Armenian population out but instead they will live under Azerbaijani authority as Azerbaijani citizens.

As for the PKK there is no place for debate. PKK is a terrorist organization. As for the measures that have to be taken I will say it again: Read the annual reports of EUROPOL because you are clearly not informed how PKK operates and the difficulties that are created for the security forces and intelligence services in the EU especially in Germany. There is a double standard when it comes to that issue. Don't understand me wrongly with my following statement but I am sure there are very different measures applied to ISIS supporters and cells in Germany compared to the ones against PKK. There are multiple cases of parents filing missing report to the German police for their children. You would be shocked how many of them are in the ranks of PKK.

The roots of PKK in all the EU are deep and if the organization have reached that level till today it is due to the pacifism of the EU services on the issue. I don't even have to talk about Ocalan's refuge in Italy and Greece.

Unfortunately in the last years especially from the time of Obama's administration till now the US also have its own agenda of supporting the Syrian wing of PKK and as you started talking openly I will also use that opportunity to say that the US don't want partners but puppets in the Middle East. All their initiative is aimed at the materialization of a puppet State bypassing Turkey with enough resources to counter Iran and project power. Well bad news...

https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/stor...egional-stability;-domination-of-SDF-must-end

 

[Sycarion]

PKK protests in Vienna for example were dissolved by Turks the Police watched and did nothing, you don't want conflict in Europe than stop supporting those provocations by ignoring it.

Because that was officially simply a kurdish protest and it was peaceful. The turkish people in Vienna were also free to launch their own counter-protest. That's freedom of speech. At least until some turkish protesters started heckling the kurds and making hand signs related to the Grey Wolves and the protests devolved into a brawl. Then the police took action and dissolved both.

So no, the Turks didn't dissolve the protest directly. They did indirectly do it by heckling and provoking the kurds into a brawl. That triggered the vienna police to dissolve both sides. Plus, if the austrian government deemed it to be okay and not a PKK protest, why is Turkey trying to intervene in internal austrian affairs in Vienna?

 

[mulj]

Because that was officially simply a kurdish protest and it was peaceful. The turkish people in Vienna were also free to launch their own counter-protest. That's freedom of speech. At least until some turkish protesters started heckling the kurds and making hand signs related to the Grey Wolves and the protests devolved into a brawl. Then the police took action and dissolved both.

So no, the Turks didn't dissolve the protest directly. They did indirectly do it by heckling and provoking the kurds into a brawl. That triggered the vienna police to dissolve both sides. Plus, if the austrian government deemed it to be okay and not a PKK protest, why is Turkey trying to intervene in internal austrian affairs in Vienna?

There is not such thing as freedom of speach, it is always between projected ideological and political margin, that is the biggest western hypocrissy ever. Last example of it is banning Trump from twitter and shutting down Parlor from google and apple, so pls spare us of that "we have freedom of speach in west"

 

[Sycarion]

There are many such uses of words by both Azerbaijani and Armenian politicians including military figures. In the case of Ramil Seferov he got his sentence, got extradited and due to the political situation was made a hero.

There is no genocide in Karabakh. If there was such the humanitarian corridors were not going to be there. Azerbaijan publicly announced that the State will not force the Armenian population out but instead they will live under Azerbaijani authority as Azerbaijani citizens.

As for the PKK there is no place for debate. PKK is a terrorist organization. As for the measures that have to be taken I will say it again: Read the annual reports of EUROPOL because you are clearly not informed how PKK operates and the difficulties that are created for the security forces and intelligence services in the EU especially in Germany. There is a double standard when it comes to that issue. Don't understand me wrongly with my following statement but I am sure there are very different measures applied to ISIS supporters and cells in Germany compared to the ones against PKK. There are multiple cases of parents filing missing report to the German police for their children. You would be shocked how many of them are in the ranks of PKK.

The roots of PKK in all the EU are deep and if the organization have reached that level till today it is due to the pacifism of the EU services on the issue. I don't even have to talk about Ocalan's refuge in Italy and Greece.

Unfortunately in the last years especially from the time of Obama's administration till now the US also have its own agenda of supporting the Syrian wing of PKK and as you started talking openly I will also use that opportunity to say that the US don't want partners but puppets in the Middle East. All their initiative is aimed at the materialization of a puppet State bypassing Turkey with enough resources to counter Iran and project power. Well bad news...
View attachment 11055

https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/stor...egional-stability;-domination-of-SDF-must-end

Croatia's Armenian diaspora's leader asked for support against what she described as a genocide, Armenian leaders describe it as genocide. Experts from around the world including the UK warn of possible genocide. Noone else can 100% ensure that no genocide happened in Karabakh without proper investigations on site. But of course we should trust the Azerbaijan government, with its long list of remarks of genocidal intent, that there are 100% no genocide happening right?

No, I know PKK is a terror org. It wouldn't have been banned in Germany otherwise. What I'm saying is, I don't support mas detainment or imprisonment of anyone carrying any PKK articles during protests. If they are caught red handed and proven to be recruiting terrorists for the PKK. Go ahead, detain them, imprison them, I don't care.

But Turkey's war in Syria is not purely to destroy the PKK and YPG. The SDF was gaining territory in the border and effectively had their own state. Erdogan was worried that this would embolden extremists in Turkey. So once Trump pulled back the US soldiers, Turkey attacked. Using PKK and YPG as an excuse to remove the fledgling SDF kurdish state on their border. To create a buffer and to prevent extremists in Turkey from getting any ideas.

 

[Ryder]

Croatia's Armenian diaspora's leader asked for support against what she described as a genocide, Armenian leaders describe it as genocide. Experts from around the world including the UK warn of possible genocide. Noone else can 100% ensure that no genocide happened in Karabakh without proper investigations on site. But of course we should trust the Azerbaijan government, with its long list of remarks of genocidal intent, that there are 100% no genocide happening right?

No, I know PKK is a terror org. It wouldn't have been banned in Germany otherwise. What I'm saying is, I don't support mas detainment or imprisonment of anyone carrying any PKK articles during protests. If they are caught red handed and proven to be recruiting terrorists for the PKK. Go ahead, detain them, imprison them, I don't care.

But Turkey's war in Syria is not purely to destroy the PKK and YPG. The SDF was gaining territory in the border and effectively had their own state. Erdogan was worried that this would embolden extremists in Turkey. So once Trump pulled back the US soldiers, Turkey attacked. Using PKK and YPG as an excuse to remove the fledgling SDF kurdish state on their border. To create a buffer and to prevent extremists in Turkey from getting any ideas.

Ahh yes the imaginary Armenian genocide caused by TB2 drones

 

[Ryder]

Because that was officially simply a kurdish protest and it was peaceful. The turkish people in Vienna were also free to launch their own counter-protest. That's freedom of speech. At least until some turkish protesters started heckling the kurds and making hand signs related to the Grey Wolves and the protests devolved into a brawl. Then the police took action and dissolved both.

So no, the Turks didn't dissolve the protest directly. They did indirectly do it by heckling and provoking the kurds into a brawl. That triggered the vienna police to dissolve both sides. Plus, if the austrian government deemed it to be okay and not a PKK protest, why is Turkey trying to intervene in internal austrian affairs in Vienna?

Everytime the pkk do their rallies they go after Turks or destroy and loot turkish owned businesses.

 

[Sycarion]

There is not such thing as freedom of speach, it is always between projected ideological and political margin, that is the biggest western hypocrissy ever. Last example of it is banning Trump from twitter and shutting down Parlor from google and apple, so pls spare us of that "we have freedom of speach in west"

Trump continualy spread unsubstantiated lies and conspiracy theories with absolutely ZERO proof about the election and incited a literal sedition and insurrection in the US. It took a literal invasion of the Capitol building for Twitter to ban Trump. Before that, regardless of what he said, Twitter at most added a clarification mark.

Parler is literally infested with White Supremacists, Neo-Nazis, and QAnon conspiracy theorists. A lot of them were planning further violence on January 20th during Biden's inauguration. Tons of screenshots to prove this. It took some extreme stuff like that for Google and Apple to deplatform Parler.

Considering the amount of tolerance the platforms have shown to these people, I'd say we do have freedom of speech.

ALSO freedom of speech protects you from retribution from the government when saying things antagonistic to the government or citiquing it. Twitter, Google, and Apple are private companies. They are publicly traded but they aren't owned by the government. Trump and the creators of Parler signed an agreement when they made their accounts/uploaded their software. They broke Terms of Service. Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from that.

ALSO ALSO Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom of Consequences.

 

[Sycarion]

Ahh yes the imaginary Armenian genocide caused by TB2 drones

So you trust the Azeri government with its long track record of genocidal statements over decades? You're sooooo smart.

 

[mulj]

Trump continualy spread unsubstantiated lies and conspiracy theories with absolutely ZERO proof about the election and incited a literal sedition and insurrection in the US. It took a literal invasion of the Capitol building for Twitter to ban Trump. Before that, regardless of what he said, Twitter at most added a clarification mark.

Parler is literally infested with White Supremacists, Neo-Nazis, and QAnon conspiracy theorists. A lot of them were planning further violence on January 20th during Biden's inauguration. Tons of screenshots to prove this. It took some extreme stuff like that for Google and Apple to deplatform Parler.

Considering the amount of tolerance the platforms have shown to these people, I'd say we do have freedom of speech.

ALSO freedom of speech protects you from retribution from the government when saying things antagonistic to the government or citiquing it. Twitter, Google, and Apple are private companies. They are publicly traded but they aren't owned by the government. Trump and the creators of Parler signed an agreement when they made their accounts/uploaded their software. They broke Terms of Service. Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from that.

ALSO ALSO Freedom of Speech =/= Freedom of Consequences.

You just exposed further hypocrisy of that concept, thx.

 

[Kartal1]

Croatia's Armenian diaspora's leader asked for support against what she described as a genocide, Armenian leaders describe it as genocide. Experts from around the world including the UK warn of possible genocide. Noone else can 100% ensure that no genocide happened in Karabakh without proper investigations on site. But of course we should trust the Azerbaijan government, with its long list of remarks of genocidal intent, that there are 100% no genocide happening right?

No, I know PKK is a terror org. It wouldn't have been banned in Germany otherwise. What I'm saying is, I don't support mas detainment or imprisonment of anyone carrying any PKK articles during protests. If they are caught red handed and proven to be recruiting terrorists for the PKK. Go ahead, detain them, imprison them, I don't care.

But Turkey's war in Syria is not purely to destroy the PKK and YPG. The SDF was gaining territory in the border and effectively had their own state. Erdogan was worried that this would embolden extremists in Turkey. So once Trump pulled back the US soldiers, Turkey attacked. Using PKK and YPG as an excuse to remove the fledgling SDF kurdish state on their border. To create a buffer and to prevent extremists in Turkey from getting any ideas.

The first part of your posts are only allegations based on nothing. The reality is that the hate between Azerbaijan and Armenia is there and nobody can deny that. As I said there are such statements from both sides motivated politically. Instead of possible committing of genocide I would like to talk about possible normalizing of relations.

I will pass the second part and go directly to the part about Syria and I see that you see That is the message I wanted to pass you with the map I shared above. Other than just ideas the events that you are talking about realized in 2015/2016 when after a hit and run attack by PKK to sleeping police officer on the Syrian border Turkey activated the security forces and the terrorists which were given refuge in a couple of cities constructed barricades, seized control of neighbourhoods and transferred manpower and equipment from Northern Syria with the means of tunnel network constructed. So they knew exactly what will happen and planned everything from before. A fact that is unfortunate is that one of the notorious snipers that took part of the terrorist operations took a sniper course provided by the USSOCOM in Northern Syria. Something had to be done and it was done after an unsuccessful coup attempt by another US supported terrorist network in Turkey with which unfortunately the Turkish government was cooperating with for many years. You look at the situation mainly in the scope of operations Olive Branch and Peace Spring operations. All that started with operation Euphrates Shield against the ISIS held area from Jarablus-Azaz-Al Bab. It was launched against both ISIS and YPG in the area. For many years Turkey wanted to launch joint operation against ISIS together with the US but instead the US had another agenda than counter-terrorism which is "the oil" as Trump himself said openly. The oil controlled by a possible puppet State. Barzani in Northern Iraq also did the fatal mistake to initiate an independence referendum using the bad position of Turkey on that moment and failed miserably. The US did not keep their promises to them as they didn't kept their promises to Turkey. If we have to call this in some way I would use the word fail!

 

[Sycarion]

You just exposed further hypocrisy of that concept, thx.

What hypocrisy? Freedom of Speech means you can critique the government and nothing will be done against you by the government. Trump had no evidence, and he was banned by Twitter, a private company, who provided him their platform provided he stuck by the platform's Terms of Service. He broke said ToS. He got banned. That's a consequence.

Parler allowed hateful speech and content, and threats of violence on their platform. Google and Apple are private companies. They have ToS not allowing the apps on their stores to host contents like these. The broke ToS, they got removed from the stores. That's consequence.

In neither of the cases were they met with retributions from the US government. Which is the very definition of Freedom of Speech. It's called Freedom of Speech and not Freedom of Consequence for a reason. You can say what you want to critique the government, you can even do it in a hateful amd dishonest manner like Trump and the Parler users did and the government won't retaliate, but it doesn't mean that private citizens and companies (Twitter, Google, Apple) should be forced to allow you to use their platform to do so.

This is more than can be said compared to when Jan Böhmermann made fun of Erdogan using harsh language in a poem and Erdogan got so mad that he demanded criminal prosecution by german government against Böhmermann over it. THAT is a form of retaliation by the Turkish Government. THAT is against Freedom of Speech.

That is such a simple concept and yet people like you can't understand that. Jesus Christ...

 

[Kartal1]

What hypocrisy? Freedom of Speech means you can critique the government and nothing will be done against you by the government. Trump had no evidence, and he was banned by Twitter, a private company, who provided him their platform provided he stuck by the platform's Terms of Service. He broke said ToS. He got banned. That's a consequence.

Parler allowed hateful speech and content, and threats of violence on their platform. Google and Apple are private companies. They have ToS not allowing the apps on their stores to host contents like these. The broke ToS, they got removed from the stores. That's consequence.

In neither of the cases were they met with retributions from the US government. Which is the very definition of Freedom of Speech. It's called Freedom of Speech and not Freedom of Consequence for a reason. You can say what you want to critique the government, you can even do it in a hateful amd dishonest manner like Trump and the Parler users did and the government won't retaliate, but it doesn't mean that private citizens and companies (Twitter, Google, Apple) should be forced to allow you to use their platform to do so.

This is more than can be said compared to when Jan Böhmermann made fun of Erdogan using harsh language in a poem and Erdogan got so mad that he demanded criminal prosecution by german government against Böhmermann over it. THAT is a form of retaliation by the Turkish Government. THAT is against Freedom of Speech.

That is such a simple concept and yet people like you can't understand that. Jesus Christ...

You talk about freedom of expression and not freedom of speech... A simple concept to understand.

Article 10 of the Human Rights Act: Freedom of expression​

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

 

[Barry]

why do you guys waste your time. Dude is down the rabbit-hole like that other dude who posts pro-china propaganda 24/7

 

[Sycarion]

The first part of your posts are only allegations based on nothing. The reality is that the hate between Azerbaijan and Armenia is there and nobody can deny that. As I said there are such statements from both sides motivated politically. Instead of possible committing of genocide I would like to talk about possible normalizing of relations.

I will pass the second part and go directly to the part about Syria and I see that you see That is the message I wanted to pass you with the map I shared above. Other than just ideas the events that you are talking about realized in 2015/2016 when after a hit and run attack by PKK to sleeping police officer on the Syrian border Turkey activated the security forces and the terrorists which were given refuge in a couple of cities constructed barricades, seized control of neighbourhoods and transferred manpower and equipment from Northern Syria with the means of tunnel network constructed. So they knew exactly what will happen and planned everything from before. A fact that is unfortunate is that one of the notorious snipers that took part of the terrorist operations took a sniper course provided by the USSOCOM in Northern Syria. Something had to be done and it was done after an unsuccessful coup attempt by another US supported terrorist network in Turkey with which unfortunately the Turkish government was cooperating with for many years. You look at the situation mainly in the scope of operations Olive Branch and Peace Spring operations. All that started with operation Euphrates Shield against the ISIS held area from Jarablus-Azaz-Al Bab. It was launched against both ISIS and YPG in the area. For many years Turkey wanted to launch joint operation against ISIS together with the US but instead the US had another agenda than counter-terrorism which is "the oil" as Trump himself said openly. The oil controlled by a possible puppet State. Barzani in Northern Iraq also did the fatal mistake to initiate an independence referendum using the bad position of Turkey on that moment and failed miserably. The US did not keep their promises to them as they didn't kept their promises to Turkey. If we have to call this in some way I would use the word fail!

About cooperation with Turkey. You know as well as I do why that didn't happen. When the US was searching for allies on the ground in Syria (because they didn't want to send american soldiers to Syria), Turkey backed and offered The Free Syrian Army. The US refused the FSA because they considered the FSA to be poorly trained, poorly equipped, and riddled with extremists (some even defected to ISIS). So the only other option available was SDF, which was lead by YPG. They were the only option that were well trained and definitely guaranteed to hate ISIS to the bone. Which meant that Turkey then decided to stay in the sidelines because they didn't want to work with the YPG. Which is all fair. But don't say it was because of oil or what not. We all know Trump is a moron with a mouth faster than his shadow.

But which coup are you talking about? The July 15th 2016 coup? That was done by a faction within your own armed forces! But of course you blame the US because Gülen is hiding in the US and the US refused to extradite him. The US did offer extradition if the Turkish government could provide compelling evidence that Gülen orchestrated the Coup. But the Turkish government instead provided evidence of subversive actions that happened before the coup and not related to it. If you want the US to extradite Gülen, the way is simple. Show evidence that he orchestrated the coup. Do that and the US will extradite him immediately. Until then, don't claim the US orchestrated the coup. Not even the Turkish government have accused the US government of orchestrating the coup. They've only ever accused Gülen and thrown a tantrum when the US refused to extradite Gülen without evidence.

 

[Sycarion]

You talk about freedom of expression and not freedom of speech... A simple concept to understand.

Article 10 of the Human Rights Act: Freedom of expression​

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

They are one and the same. Both protected under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States in the US, which is where Trump, Parler, Twitter, Google, and Apple are based on. You're just nitpicking.

Even under your definition, banning Trump and removing Parler don't break either of the points. Böhmermann did what he did in Germany and didn't break either points. Erdogan just got mad and he decided to try coerce the german government to punish Böhmermann for him.

 

[CAN_TR]

Because that was officially simply a kurdish protest and it was peaceful. The turkish people in Vienna were also free to launch their own counter-protest. That's freedom of speech. At least until some turkish protesters started heckling the kurds and making hand signs related to the Grey Wolves and the protests devolved into a brawl. Then the police took action and dissolved both.

So no, the Turks didn't dissolve the protest directly. They did indirectly do it by heckling and provoking the kurds into a brawl. That triggered the vienna police to dissolve both sides. Plus, if the austrian government deemed it to be okay and not a PKK protest, why is Turkey trying to intervene in internal austrian affairs in Vienna?

Hahaha i was there what are you telling here?

PKK slogans/flags were the reason why Turks came and dissolved the "protest" otherwise we don't care about that shit, a week before there was a huge ANTIFA etc. protest in the city centre nothing happened. Why? Because no PKK slogans.

Freedom of speech, go tell that to Assange, Snowden etc. you have freedom of speech until it's in the limits. If you cross the limit result is Hamburg, Paris, Athens. And what Böhmermann did was for sure NOT freedom of speech, but INSULTING. You can't call a leader of another country "Ziegenficker/Kinderficker/Zoophil" in the public.

I'm out, no time to waste on you and this OT bullshit here.