TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Bogeyman]

Akinci CH-5

Take off and landing Runway (Autonomous) Runway (Autonomous)

Cruise/Maximum speed 130/195 Knots 120 Knots

Max. Take off weight 5,500 kg 3,300 kg

Operational/Max. Ceiling 30,000 ft/40,000 ft 22,965 ft (7,000 metres)

Endurance 24 hrs. 60 hrs.

Payload capacity 1,350 kg External: 900 kg/Internal: 300 kg

Operational range N/A 2,000 km

Wingspan 20 m 21 m

Correction: It was previously announced that the Akıncı UAV has a range of 2500 km for offensive purposes and a operational radius of 5000 km for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR).

Kuvvet personellerinin Bayraktar AKINCI TİHA eğitimi başladı

Kuvvet personellerinin Baykar Savunma tarafından yerli ve millî olarak geliştirilen Bayraktar AKINCI Taarruzî İHA eğitimleri başladı Baykar Savunma Teknik Müdürü

www.defenceturk.net

If we make a conclusion, if Turkey wants to permanently deploy the Akıncı's to an area for the purpose of ISR, the Akıncı's range will be 10 thousand km. Again, if we want to permanently deploy the Akıncı's with missiles on it, the Akıncı's range will be 5 thousand km.

We explain this by the fact that the operational radius is half the operational range. In short, when the Akıncı goes on a mission, it is desirable to describe the "operating radius" and the round-trip range.

 

[Nutuk]

How much would be the price of the Akinci, any thoughts?

Would it be below $10mln?

 

[kimov]

How much would be the price of the Akinci, any thoughts?

Would it be below $10mln?

Obviously nobody knows at this point but $10-15M sound about right for the base configuration considering that TB2 is estimated to cost $3-5M on the export market. I put it above $10M on export market since it will most likely be produced in smaller volumes than TB2.

For armed and special versions price could maybe go to $50-60M (half MQ9-SeaGardian level)

 

[Fuzuli NL]

 

[Fuzuli NL]

 

[Zafer]

Obviously nobody knows at this point but $10-15M sound about right for the base configuration considering that TB2 is estimated to cost $3-5M on the export market. I put it above $10M on export market since it will most likely be produced in smaller volumes than TB2.

For armed and special versions price could maybe go to $50-60M (half MQ9-SeaGardian level)

I would judge the plane by the pound as they make every pound count.
Fully equipped and armed top model should be no less then $35mn per plane not including peripherals.

 

[Anmdt]

Yes, it is a high endurance UCAV. 60 hours? Wow.

Also I think the comparison should include price per unit as well.

Think twice before believing numbers disclosed by China. The real specs will only be known once it is exported.
We have seen how CH-4 was marketed initially, such superior to MQ-1 and others, and how it ended up to be.

 

[kimov]

Fully equipped and armed top model should be no less then $35mn per plane not including peripherals.

Which is similar to my estimate around $50-60M for fully specced out version but again this is just an estimate based on what other drones with similar capacity cost. My guess is based on half cost of MQ-9 SeaGuardian/SkyGuardian at +100M$ for marketing reasons. At this stage, we simply have to be significantly cheaper than USA if we are going to sell any drones on export.

For the fully specced version, we can't be much cheaper than 50M either since we also have to include a lot of development cost for sub-systems. Other Nato countries can split any sub-system cost over more projects between their countries. Thanks to our "allies", we cant do that.

 

[Saithan]

Which is similar to my estimate around $50-60M for fully specced out version but again this is just an estimate based on what other drones with similar capacity cost. My guess is based on half cost of MQ-9 SeaGuardian/SkyGuardian at +100M$ for marketing reasons. At this stage, we simply have to be significantly cheaper than USA if we are going to sell any drones on export.

For the fully specced version, we can't be much cheaper than 50M either since we also have to include a lot of development cost for sub-systems. Other Nato countries can split any sub-system cost over more projects between their countries. Thanks to our "allies", we cant do that.

I think it's important to not be too cheap as well.

I believe that what we're offering is a lot better than US. As I imagine the strings we attach aren't as restrictive as the US'. If Akinci ends up with a pricetag around 35-60 then so be it. What's important is that it gets the job done, and is reliable.

It's important that we improve and cash in to continue R&D, and become fully independent which means we should also work on establishing domestic suppliers of all subcomponents.

Creating jobs, and creating a reliable supply chain would be very good.

 

[Saithan]

China has a drone carrier ?

When you say Carrier I think of

It's not unreal, a CN235 with a bunch of alpagu, Kargu being tipped out from the rear gate and that locates target automatically or with ground forces laser targetting capabilities (smart helmet etc.)

Would be pretty awesome. Well not just Kargu and Alpagu, but any type that would fit our doctrine.

 

[Anmdt]

When you say Carrier I think of

View attachment 20959

It's not unreal, a CN235 with a bunch of alpagu, Kargu being tipped out from the rear gate and that locates target automatically or with ground forces laser targetting capabilities (smart helmet etc.)

Would be pretty awesome. Well not just Kargu and Alpagu, but any type that would fit our doctrine.

Even Aksungur or Akıncı can be a drone carrier. In my opinion manned platforms should be more C4I /Relay centers far from the risks, operating in a secure airspace.

For Akıncı it was mentioned to launch loitering munitions, ANKA has already adopted Simsek Target drone for exercises of such missions. Alpagu's next block probably will be more oriented for air-launch. For Kargı loitering drone, i don't think there is such a need because it is more oriented to be launched from ground with a long range and long loitering endurance.

 

[Nutuk]

If Akinci like drones cost $35mln than Turkey should not even produce them.

Anything above $15mln is purely waste

 

[Zafer]

Which is similar to my estimate around $50-60M for fully specced out version but again this is just an estimate based on what other drones with similar capacity cost. My guess is based on half cost of MQ-9 SeaGuardian/SkyGuardian at +100M$ for marketing reasons. At this stage, we simply have to be significantly cheaper than USA if we are going to sell any drones on export.

For the fully specced version, we can't be much cheaper than 50M either since we also have to include a lot of development cost for sub-systems. Other Nato countries can split any sub-system cost over more projects between their countries. Thanks to our "allies", we cant do that.

The cost also depends on the number sold. MQ-9 Guardian is sold in smaller numbers (?) whereas Akıncı can be sold in higher numbers as it is not as strategic at this stage. Also the number and effectiveness of the systems on board multiply the value and can not directly be compared with others unless they are similarly specced. When bundled as a package of 10 planes in a system for a new customer it can be priced as a $50mn per piece once it has gained some air time in a first customer's inventory. Also the ammunition brings a continuous stream of revenue and political benefits.

 

[Zafer]

If Akinci like drones cost $35mln than Turkey should not even produce them.

Anything above $15mln is purely waste

And your calculation is based on what?

 

[Anmdt]

If Akinci like drones cost $35mln than Turkey should not even produce them.

Anything above $15mln is purely waste

The costs can only be compared when we include operational and overhaul cost of a Jet to take place of such drones for air-to-ground or intelligence missions.
Even with a price tag of $35 mil, a drone would still make up its price in a year or two considering how often Turkey uses and deploys drones.
At this stage i am not even mentioning a trained jet pilot costs multi-hundred millions.
Let a hundred million dollars sink, if there is no other way to acquire these kind of drones from elsewhere (which absolutely there is no other way).

 

[Combat-Master]

If Akinci like drones cost $35mln than Turkey should not even produce them.

Anything above $15mln is purely waste

Wild speculations on costs, it will definitely cost less than $35mln. R&D costs on various sub-systems are not projected to the end-user, that's not how it works.

 

[Anmdt]

R&D costs on various sub-systems are not projected to the end-user

Doesn't SSB already fun the R&D process as owner the IP rights on platform? Also it is probably funded by dedicated R&D funds too.

 

[Combat-Master]

Doesn't SSB already fun the R&D process as owner the IP rights on platform? Also it is probably funded by dedicated R&D funds too.

I believe so, hence we are selling at a loss however we are gaining the know-how. This is how Aselsan and various manufacturers are able to stay competitive in the market.

 

[Zafer]

Doesn't SSB already fun the R&D process as owner the IP rights on platform? Also it is probably funded by dedicated R&D funds too.

I don't think that there is a blanket IP rights ownership in everything SSB orders.
The prize of a product is determined based on a multitude of variables mainly determined by the effectiveness of the system and the cost of alternatives. It will definitely cost less for Turkey but not any less than $30mn for an initial batch. Baykar has grown to 1400 employees already. They can not afford to make cheap stuff anymore.

 

[Nutuk]

And your calculation is based on what?

On common logic.

It makes no sense to have a drone at half price of a fighter jet. Your citing of US drones are completely wrong, the US uses her position in Nato to push their weapons upon "allies", utilizing CAATSA treaths.


If Turkey want's to have a chance in drone market that drone has to be below $15mln (which is still twice the price of a comparable Chinese drone)