TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Mis_TR_Like]

Imagine K2 armed with AVCI or another Skydagger drone that's been programmed to hunt down HVTs such as parked aircraft...

Whereas TB2 was designed to launch munitions from a distance, K2 is supposed to get up close to do its work (for obvious reasons). This also means that it's a good platform to launch small drones from, meaning that if a few K2s approached an airbase they could disperse enough small drones to destroy all parked aircraft.

The problem with Iran's Shahed strikes is that they target the coordinates of an airbase without actually discriminating where the aircraft are parked. You can program small quadrocopter drones to identify parked planes, helicopters, etc.

Once air defences are depleted, every single aircraft becomes a sitting duck if you send in K2s armed with quadrocopters.

This type of concept could be further improved upon, but I don't want to give out any ideas

SKYDAGGER General Manager Mehmet Öztekin announced that they are working on a new concept for KIZILELMA as part of the collaboration with BAYKAR.

'Perhaps 20–30 small drones will emerge from KIZILELMA. These systems will be capable of operating in swarms'

'Our goal is to extend this structure starting from KALKAN to TB2, TB3, AKINCI, and in the future to KIZILELMA'

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2035640397653770257

 

[boredaf]

SKYDAGGER General Manager Mehmet Öztekin announced that they are working on a new concept for KIZILELMA as part of the collaboration with BAYKAR.

'Perhaps 20–30 small drones will emerge from KIZILELMA. These systems will be capable of operating in swarms'

'Our goal is to extend this structure starting from KALKAN to TB2, TB3, AKINCI, and in the future to KIZILELMA'

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2035640397653770257

And what exactly is the point of filling a stealth fighter drone with short range drones? Bringing KE within a range that would allow those small drones to find targets would also put it right in the range of any and all AA enemy has.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

And what exactly is the point of filling a stealth fighter drone with short range drones? Bringing KE within a range that would allow those small drones to find targets would also put it right in the range of any and all AA enemy has.

Well yes you're right, but depends on the situation. Before putting KE anywhere near somewhere like an airbase you'd probably wipe out all the AA you can. But it is definitely a valid criticism (especially as KE was suggested by the general manager).

Hence why I suggested K2 as a good platform for such a role. To be fair TB2 and Akinci could do the same, but K2 is designed to get up close and sacrifice itself, so it would be a good choice.

 

[boredaf]

Well yes you're right, but depends on the situation. Before putting KE anywhere near somewhere like an airbase you'd probably wipe out all the AA you can. But it is definitely a valid criticism (especially as KE was suggested by the general manager).

Hence why I suggested K2 as a good platform for such a role. To be fair TB2 and Akinci could do the same, but K2 is designed to get up close and sacrifice itself, so it would be a good choice.

Mate, it is completely unnecessary, not just for KE but all of them. Why would you want to destroy K2's flight performance and silhouette on radars, as well as either lower its range by sacrificing its fuel or lower its warhead weight? Because when you put quads on it, every kg you put on will be subtracted from either from its fuel or from its warhead and those quads will increase the drag profile of the drone causing it to have shorter range in the first place AND make it far more visible to radar. Putting drones with 10 to 15 km range and few kgs of warheads on platforms that cost millions, or a platform that already has 200 kg of warhead makes zero sense.

This fascination with quads is really weird. They have their uses in the frontline there is no question about that, but they are utterly unnecessary for targeting some place like enemy airbase unless you already have troops behind enemy lines that can control them. Not to mention, despite all the videos you might see from Ukraine, their failure rate is utterly immense. Most of the drones they use do nothing at all, you are seeing perhaps 15 out of a 100 drones. and that is on the frontlines.

Edit: Also, if you have wiped out all the AA you don't need KE to drop those drones then. If you can do that, you can literally walk in. And still it would be dangerous because you cannot know there isn't a soldiers with a MANPADS targeting KE. It is an unnecessary risk with little gain. Just flavour of the month stuff.

 

[boredaf]

Don't get misleaded by that sh*tty illustration. Imo Baykar plans more like this concept tested years ago by the U.S Navy.

3D printed Perdix drones

View attachment 79628

www.technologyreview.com/2017/01/10/154651/a-100-drone-swarm-dropped-from-jets-plans-its-own-moves/amp/

My point still stands, what are you going to achieve by releasing a swarm of drones that doesn't even weigh half a kilo? If you notice, they are not even talking about a range there nor any payload. And that article is almost 10 years old mate and I can't find a single proper source that isn't quoting this or showing what it can really do.

 

[boredaf]

Who said they will release half kilo drones? I am talking about that concept. Look at that drones shape, like a glide bomb. So imagine one KE can release 20 drones with 5 kg explosives, which first can glide like 50 km and then can fly another 100 km on its own. The concept is the main point.

If they glide 50 km they will be losing altitude constantly, then will have to climb again and a drone that is carrying 5 kg explosive plus an engine and batteries that can fly it for 100 km (as well as its airframe, and any electronics and sensor so that it can find its way) is not just going to weigh 5 kg and it'll need 2 or 3 meter length wings. Where exactly are you planning to carry 20 drones like that?

 

[Zafer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2036013778546962599

 

[AlperTunga]

The concepts should be driven by the Turkish army. Not by some profit oriented CEOs who are just following some popular trends in bizarre ways. We have limited resources and time. We need to come up with the most impactful ideas. Turkish army officials need to spend more time with the industry and research initiatives.

 

[Zafer]

Maybe someday KE powered by EJ200. Let me dream...

Kızılelma started with cheaper engines to emerge as an affordable piece of equipment however its evolving capabilities justify a bigger price and a more expensive engine along with it. TF10000 will probably move the performance needle up like 10% which will give the bare minimum it needs. Moving up a rumoured Baykar engine will double the power in like 4 years in which case EJ200 is only like another 12% on top of it. So it depends on whether Baykar's engine efforts will pan out in a reasonable timeframe if EJ200 will have a chance. Probably though because the Baykar engine and the EJ200 have similar specs they can be interchangable in an upgraded Kızılelma. Even this scenario is challenged by a twin 10.000k engine version that will give similar power levels. Baykar is quick in their dealings, if the European market embraces the idea of an EJ200 powered Kızılelma Baykar can make it in the Italian ecosystem.

 

[Zafer]

Did anyone other than Tolga Özbek talk about an Baykar made 20.000 lb engine? Is it even confirmed by Baykar?

Baykar talked about an engine but didn't specify a power level. Now that TEI is making the TF10k engine Baykar must be making an engine on another level. Considering that a 20k engine can also be used on Hürjet and possible other variants it makes sense to think that Baykar is making such an engine.

 

[Yasar_TR]

If Baykar wants to stay as master of unmanned air vehicles they should concentrate on that subject and leave the engine technology to those who are masters of it. Otherwise they will be Jack of all trades but master of none.

They still haven’t mastered KE yet. There is so much they need to accomplish with KE that diversifying in to engine building will only dilute their real goal.

KE needs supersonic flight testing, internal weapons bay testing, RAM paint application, improvements to it’s low observability, improvements to it’s airframe to give it more manoeuvrability, increasing it’s LOS operational distance via relay systems, AI capability for air combat including non-susceptibility to outside interference, improving it’s operational envelope including more altitude and a possible twin engine development.
KE is not that much of an expendable cheap plane. It needs to be as stealthy as possible and should have passive sensors to alert ground crew for possible attack on itself.

 

[Kaan Azman]

Agreed, while I am totally fine with them producing TM100, gas turbines is a far bigger deal that takes time, people, and resources, especially those to power unmanned fighters. Even though they are opening a department the other challenges stand.

At most, I would support some small turbojet but they got that part covered by IdeaLab

 

[Zafer]

If Baykar need an engine in 4 years and TEI can deliver one in 7 years Baykar won't wait for TEI to do the job. It is the same for all agile companies. Look at what Elon Musk is upto talking about making photo-lithography machines to make microchips and all. Vertical integration is inevitable if you want to be competitive.

 

[Agha Sher]

If Baykar need an engine in 4 years and TEI can deliver one in 7 years Baykar won't wait for TEI to do the job. It is the same for all agile companies. Look at what Elon Musk is upto talking about making photo-lithography machines to make microchips and all. Vertical integration is inevitable if you want to be competitive.

It goes in circles. vertical integration is a necessity when no one else can reliably solve a problem. Over time, many will figure out how to solve the problem very well making vertical integration a liability.

 

[Zafer]

It goes in circles. vertical integration is a necessity when no one else can reliably solve a problem. Over time, many will figure out how to solve the problem very well making vertical integration a liability.

The world is in a period of rapid change, time is in short supply

 

[AlperTunga]

If Baykar need an engine in 4 years and TEI can deliver one in 7 years Baykar won't wait for TEI to do the job. It is the same for all agile companies. Look at what Elon Musk is upto talking about making photo-lithography machines to make microchips and all. Vertical integration is inevitable if you want to be competitive.

Agree. TEI is too sluggish. Baykar will be a very large company in the future. We are talking about an engine that Hürjet can fly with, it is not about 6.th generation engine, so no need for specialization here.

 

[Huelague]

Otherwise they will be Jack of all trades but master of none.

...overtimes better than master of one

 

[Trakya_forever]

Baykar can't produce a turbofan engine ( dry trust over 10.000 lbf ) alone. Cooperation is possible. They pay the money, someone else (Ivchenko etc) make the engine. TF6000 or 10000 (ab) is not enough for real/future Kızılelma. It is sure.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Well they did have good relations with Motor Sich and bought Piaggio which has at least some experience in engines and produces parts for F135 engine.

 

[Zafer]

Kızılelma is an unmanned fighter, it needs an engine that can be delivered in a short time like 4 years from the beginning of the project. The engine does not need to be 100% mature like the manned fighter engines do. When you want to use the engine on a manned plane you spend more time maturing it but in the case of Kızılelma you just need an engine that delivers the power and stays in the air, so an experimental engine is just fine for Kızılelma. They can even experiment with novel features and fly it once it proves to be durable in flight. So you don't need to be a top notch engine maker to make it. Baykar should keep the design in house but outsource parts making for many of its parts. Also TurAF will probably not be the majority user as there is the Euro market and the rest of the world. You just need to make it available when the customer is ready to buy.