Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Gary

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Calling the Soviet Union the most compassionate to Ukraine compared to the Russian Empire is factually incorrect. In fact it's absurd. By far the greatest murder of Ukrainians happened between 1932-1933, as the Soviet Union starved Ukrainians opposed to collectivization. Between 3-5 million Ukrainians died, mostly of hunger, while the Soviet Union continued exporting Ukrainian grain. If you'd like, I can explain the specific policies taken by the Soviet Union that resulted (and guaranteed) such colossal loss of life.
Well under the Soviet, the country really has a chance to develop. Many OKB office are situated in Ukraine, in fact many of the today's Ukraine high tech industry like weapons and aerospace are inherited from previous era Soviet industrialization effort, ethic Ukrainians had the chance to occupy positions of power (Khrushchev) etc. Not saying its all so much better under the Soviet iteration of the Moscow empire, but there's a marked improvement compared that to the previous Russian empire. At leat that what it looked like from outside.
 

contricusc

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Not saying its all so much better under the Soviet iteration of the Moscow empire, but there's a marked improvement compared that to the previous Russian empire. At leat that what it looked like from outside.

So you think 3-5 million people left to starve to death while the food they produced was being exported was an “improvement”? This is how it looks from the outside? Genocide is an improvement?
 

Gary

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So you think 3-5 million people left to starve to death while the food they produced was being exported was an “improvement”? This is how it looks from the outside? Genocide is an improvement?
This is what industrialization in the 20th century usually looked like, growth in the expense of human, nothing out of the ordinary. Before the Soviet industrialization effort, Ukraine is just a big farm land for Russia, in a generation those farmland are producing missiles, ships, aircrafts, computers etc.

Ukrainians went from just the subject of Moscow into the positions of power and prestige, occupying the highest post in the land like Khruschev. Is that not an improvement ?

I would make some changes to your statement:

Roosevelt APPEASED Stalin and whole Eastern Europe paid the price for his BETRAYAL.
How is Roosevelt betraying anyone in Eastern Europe ? The immidiate post WW2 global order in simplified form is the allies get all the ocean, the Russians get all the land, meaning Russia get recognized for its suzerainty on eastern Europe and Central Asia, while global commerce at sea dominated by the allies.

It wasn't until 1946 that the West really took an antagonistic approach to Soviet Russia with the so called long telegram by US diplomat George Kennan.


Add to the fact that the U.S/allies has no obligation for the protection of Eastern Europe before the war (with the exception of Poland). So how is he betraying something that he never committed in the first place ?
 
E

Era_shield

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So you think 3-5 million people left to starve to death while the food they produced was being exported was an “improvement”? This is how it looks from the outside? Genocide is an improvement?
No no don't you see, it's fine to genocide people if you later turn their country into a factory for yourself! It's so simple even a Marxist could understand it!
 

Gary

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What happened to Poland after ww2 was a disgrace.

Not only were Poles killed by the Nazis and Soviets after that their country was sold off to Soviets.

Warsaw Uprising the Soviets could have actually help and intervene the Polish people.

Guess what the Soviets actually watched while the Germans destroyed Warsaw piece by piece. Soviets benefitted from the Germans destroying Poland so it make it easier for them to take the whole country.

Now the Germans and the Russians are engaged in historical revisionism that the Concentration Camps were Polish not German.

Russians and Germans were complicit in starting Ww2.

if we read the standard narrative of the 2nd WW, it looks like there's only 2 evil in Europe. The Nazi's and Soviet Commies, both are portrayed as an aggressive opportunistic power doing all it can preying on smaller countries in the name of national interest.

The thing is, the poster child of victim here, is not that innocent to begin with. The first Vienna award (the annexation of Czechslovakia) are ironically done not by Germany and Soviet Russia, but by Germany and Poland


If you dig deeper none of this countries are that different to begin with. Its just sometime their national power aren't adequate enough to start wars and invasions. That's all. The more you dig into history the less worried you are about the recent world development.
 

Dmr

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This is what industrialization in the 20th century usually looked like, growth in the expense of human, nothing out of the ordinary.
I would say starving millions of people to death is quite "out of the ordinary".Could you mention some other examples where that happened to such a large scale since it is what "industrialization looked like"?

While Russian genocide against Ukrainian people is not something most people know about it was one of the darkest events in human history.Trying to justify or relativize it with "it was normal in those times" or something along those lines is just...despicable.
 

Gary

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I would say starving millions of people to death is quite "out of the ordinary".Could you mention some other examples where that happened to such a large scale since it is what "industrialization looked like"?

While Russian genocide against Ukrainian people is not something most people know about it was one of the darkest events in human history.Trying to justify or relativize it with "it was normal in those times" or something along those lines is just...despicable.
How about the starvation in the Indian subcontinent because the Brits forced local farmers to grow cotton instead of food. Or the many Africans worked to death by Belgians to feed their country? Atvthe end of these exploitation by Brits and Belgians,the respective victims doesnt end with the capability to produce planes,ships,rockets etc.

One more thing. People are using the word genocide liberally these days without understanding the meaning of genocide itself.

Last time I checked genocide is the deliberate act to killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

The holodomor...doesnt fit that description,because while horrible. The mass death is BYPRODUCT of Stalin's policy not the GOAL itself. See what Im sayinh ? Yes people were exploited to death but their death isnt the intentiom here....just like all human exploitation by industry. Which ironically actually exist to this day
 
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Dmr

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How about the starvation in the Indian subcontinent because the Brits forced local farmers to grow cotton instead of food. Or the many Africans worked to death by Belgians to feed their country? Atvthe end of these exploitation by Brits and Belgians,the respective victims doesnt end with the capability to produce planes,ships,rockets etc.
So we have 3 examples which confirming that holodomor was the norm all over the world?
Because Soviets set factories for "planes,ships and rockets" that should somehow mean what?
I am pretty sure Ukrainians would prefer to have freedom,but got no say in that till 1991.

Last time I checked genocide is the deliberate act to killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

The holodomor...doesnt fit that description,because while horrible. The mass death is BYPRODUCT of Stalin's policy not the GOAL itself. See what Im sayinh ? Yes people were exploited to death but their death isnt the intentiom here....just like all human exploitation by industry. Which ironically actually exist to this day
You know it doesnt take a brain surgeon to figure out that if you take certain people's food away they will die.
When you starve a targeted group of people long enough their death is not a "byproduct" but a certain result of that action.
That is nothing else but "deliberate act of killing of a large number of people with the intention of destroying that group of people in whole or in part".
 

Kathirz

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6_aug_top_daily_express_Holodomor_Genocide.png
 

Ryder

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Seeing the cemeteries in Ukraine and Russia filling up is pretty disturbing.

Generations getting wiped out.

Even if 20 years has passed this conflict the wounds will still be there.

Serbs done to Bosnia while the Russians have done to Ukraine.

Dont be surprised if the Russians write songs praising their war criminals.
 

Relic

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Monthly reminder of what equipment Ukraine will have available for their summer counter offensive. As we don't know what equipment in their existing inventory they're going to be able to free up from the defensive lines, I'm only going to include equipment being provided to them by their allies and purchase. Of course, I won't include any equipment that isn't slated to reach the Ukrainians until the back half of 2023 and into 2024...

Here is what they'll have to start the summer with.

Main Battle Tanks
28x T-55s MBT
60x PT-91 Twardy MBT
80x T-72 MBTS (approximately)
88x Leopard 2A4/6 MBT
14x Challenger 2 MBT

Approximate total MBTs: 270

Armored Fighting Vehicles / Infantry Fighting Vehicles

40x AMX-10RC IFV
40x Marder IFV
109x Bradley M2 ODS IFV
50x CV90 IFV
100x KTO Rosomak AFV
20x Fennek AFV (approximately)
500x HMMWV TOW / .50 Caliber variants (approximately)
25x AMX-10P

Approximate total AFVs / IFVs: 884

Armored Personnel Carriers / MRAPS

400x M113 APC (approximately)
90x Stryker APC
60x VAB APC
60x Bushmaster APC (approximately)
20x ACMAT APC
39x ACSV APC
35x FV105 Spartan APC
40x Mastiff APC
37x Cougar MRAP
250x M117 MRAP
300x M1224 Maxxpro MRAP (approximately)
150x BMC Kirpi MRAP (approximately)
50x ATF Dingo APC

Approximate total APCs: 1531

Self-Propelled Artillery / Rocket Artillery / Self-Propelled Mortars

40x CAESAR, 155mm howitzers (approximately)
30x Panzerhaubitze 2000, 155mm howitzers (approximately)
60x M109, 155mm howitzers (approximately)
12x Archer, 155mm howitzers
30x AS-90, 155mm howitzers
30x BM-21 Grad, 122mm rocket artillery (approximately)
12x RM70 Grad, 122mm rocket artillery (approximately)
12x M142 HIMARS (approximately)
6x M270 (approximately)
20x M113 Panzermorser mortars (approximately)

Approximate total Self-Propelled Artillery / Rocket Artillery / Self-Propelled Mortars: 252
 
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UkroTurk

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At least 10Ukrainian pilots are ready to fly with F-16s.

Ukrainian side loudly asking to western for F-16 transfer.
 

Relic

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At least 10Ukrainian pilots are ready to fly with F-16s.

Ukrainian side loudly asking to western for F-16 transfer.
The F-16 would only be a marginal upgrade on the Mig-29 because of it's weapon's suite and the radar capability it possesses. Even if the West sent, let's say 24 of then to Ukraine, they would be a at the same risk of being hit by Russian air defense as Ukraine's current Migs and Sukhois.

They would definitely be an upgrade on what Ukraine has, but make no mistake, F-16s would not be the game changer that some think they would be.

Put it this way, at this stage of the conflict, if Ukraine could get let's say 200 Tomahawk cruise missiles, or 24 F-16s with a full compliment of armament, I'd go with the cruise missiles all day. The ability to launch them in salvos and overwhelm air defenses, while striking critical Russian targets, would be of great strategic value. Ukraine's greatest need right now is the ability to strike Russian targets, with precision, in the 100-200km range. Especially if you gave them to Ukraine before announcing them, you could really cath the Russian by surprise and target their big ammo store and command centers deep behind enemy lines. You could really massacre their military leadership in that way and further complicate their logistics, rendering their army undersupplied and overwhelmed at the front.
 

Gary

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@blackjack

Finland in NATO meant that (in war)the Russian Baltic fleet is effectively locked in Saint Petersburg. While the frontline and roads leading to Murmansk, home to the Northern fleet is now stretched for thousand of km and vulnerable.

Out of Russia's 4 high seas fleet, only the Pacific fleet is relatively safe from blockade.

As I said before, this war is taking toll on the Russian high seas fleet.

after Finland joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in April 2023 and in the face of impending Swedish membership, Russia needs to reconsider its vision toward its navy. For example, the Baltic Fleet and even the Northern Fleet are becoming too vulnerable. The Baltic Fleet may even lose its role as a significant military force in the region, as its potential area of operation seems limited to the waters near its bases in Baltiysk and Kronstadt. The Northern Fleet’s main bases and even the only Russian shipyard in Severodvinsk responsible for manufacturing and repairing nuclear-powered submarines and other battle vessels are in the potential operational zone of NATO air power, especially considering the upcoming rearmament of the Finnish Air Force with F-35 fighter jets (The Barents Observer, May 28, 2022). All this means that the headquarters of the Russian Navy needs to be more flexible in operational planning and power projection among its fleets.​

On the other hand, that means more money towards where it matters the most for Russia's current situation the ground forces and air forces. That should explain the unconfirmed reports of the cancellation of modernizing Peter the Great nuclear battlecruiser.
 

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