Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Spitfire9

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Out of curiosity, and I'm not mocking you for the (what I consider incredibly naive) assumption/operating thought, but why is this?

Even just going by the numbers, Russia vastly outnumbers them: Ukraine's just opened a new front of all things, dispersed their armies out further, they're incapable of really pushing Russia back as we've seen. The last offensive was their do-or-die, it's not going to happen now. This Kursk thing has a real chance of backfiring, too, as plenty of people have mentioned - they've deployed a whole lot of irreplaceable crack troops and equipment in a venture that could likely see them cut off, surrounded, and destroyed, and on top of that it hasn't stopped Russia marching further toward taking Pokrovsk.

Top-notch western military equipment is great and all, but you ultimately still need people to use it. For all of Russia's losses, they can be replaced, whereas Ukraine's already in dire straits in terms of filling out the ranks.

Do I think this will ultimately come to some negotiated political outcome with Russia (somewhat) going home? Absolutely. That's not going to be a "win" for Ukraine - a third of Ukraine will now be Russian territory, and they'll have lost more-or-less an entire generation of men.

A "lose" situation for Russia is still leaving Ukraine with more territory than they had initially, at the cost of not even a full mobilization of troops. Yes, Russia has a bloody nose from all of this, no question. But there's zero possibility here of a situation in which Zelenskyy "wins" this conflict. Man for man pound for pound, they've lost far more than Russia has, and they're not forcing Putin's troops home en-masse in any meaningful way.
I think that what happens in the next few months depends on
- continuing American support by the next administration (low probability IMO)
- continuing EU, UK, Norway support (high probability IMO)
- whether rules of engagement allow Ukraine to use donated weapons to attack Russia
- whether Russia starts running low on fighting vehicles, missiles
- how much US and Europe ramp up weapons and munitions production

On paper Russia should lose this war (Russian GDP about $2 trillion, Ukraine allies' GDP about $40 trillion). The longer the war lasts, the more western weapons production should rise compared to Russian weapons production.
 
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SilverMachine

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Well, okay, but for example...

"whether Russia starts running low on fighting vehicles, missiles"



This won't happen, it's fantasy. Russia's a monster of production, even on their own, and you factor in the whole China/NK/Iran thing...

Look, we all want this to go as well as possible for Ukraine. But you have to set a realistic ceiling on what's possible to do: it'd be stupid for the west to put any of their own boots on the ground, nobody wants that. The allowing western weapons for strikes inside Russia is already a *really* slippery slope, and not a road I think is wise to go down. Russia, while a paper tiger in a certain sense, isn't *entirely* paper, and they're more than capable of taking the gloves off too. Keep in mind they haven't even really broken out the big guns in terms of air power yet, they've been pretty overly cautious and playing all that close to the chest. F-16's are useful to Ukraine, yay, but they're a 40 year old airframe and something Russia's more than capable of countering with their newer aircraft they've barely used yet.

The US and Europe might be willing to ramp up weapons production, yes. But not for Ukraine. That's thinking "the day after" type of thing, worst case scenario for if Russia's dumb enough to go further into Poland (they're not dumb enough).

It might sound defeatist, but Ukraine isn't coming out of this thing with anything resembling a "win", or even intact as a whole country by 2014 standards. The UK's sent them about all they can, Norway's not much of a factor one way or the other, and the US has a ceiling in which it's not going to involve itself further.

This Kursk incursion succeeds, Zelenskyy has some territory and prisoners to strengthen a negotiating position? Great, awesome. Thing is, they're already lying about the numbers of Russians they've taken POW (it's nowhere near 20 000, usual Uke propagandist horseshit), and it's pretty damn likely these top-tier troops of theirs get cut off & encircled any week now. I wouldn't be hugely optimistic, ballsy a move as this invade-Russia-back tactic may be.
 

contricusc

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Even just going by the numbers, Russia vastly outnumbers them: Ukraine's just opened a new front of all things, dispersed their armies out further, they're incapable of really pushing Russia back as we've seen. The last offensive was their do-or-die, it's not going to happen now. This Kursk thing has a real chance of backfiring, too, as plenty of people have mentioned - they've deployed a whole lot of irreplaceable crack troops and equipment in a venture that could likely see them cut off, surrounded, and destroyed, and on top of that it hasn't stopped Russia marching further toward taking Pokrovsk.

Russia’s population is much higher than Ukraine’s, but wars are not won on population numbers alone. If you get to the point where you can’t equip your army with enough weapons, your capability to field capable troops hits a ceiling.

While everyone is speaking about Ukraine running out of soldiers for a while (which I think it is greatly exaggerated and far from happening), nobody mentions that Russia has its own problems when it comes to recruiting troops. Russia mostly relies on paid troops right now, and they have kept raising the salaries of troops in order to be able to keep pace with recruiting. This strategy has its limits, because if they continue down this path of bidding up troop pay to attract new people, the government will run out of money.

Everyone believes that Russia has an unlimited supply of soldiers if they decide to do a mobilization, but why are they avoding doing it if it was such an easy solution? The reality is that a total mobilization is very risky for the Putin regime. Also, there is also the precedent of high paid troops in the Russian military, which makes mobilization much more problematic. People will find it unacceptable to fight for free, while those who volunteered got paid handsome money for the same thing.

A mobilization would also further strain the Russian economy, and would cause a big wave of migration, so it is not a good solution for Russia. The question is, will Russia be willing to sacrifice its entire country and future just to keep a few provinces in Ukraine?

Top-notch western military equipment is great and all, but you ultimately still need people to use it. For all of Russia's losses, they can be replaced, whereas Ukraine's already in dire straits in terms of filling out the ranks.

People keep telling that Ukraine is running out of people to use the weapons, yet they managed to surprise everyone by building up many well equipped and trained brigades to invade the Kursk region. If they were running out of troops, they wouldn’t be able to pull this off.

Do I think this will ultimately come to some negotiated political outcome with Russia (somewhat) going home? Absolutely. That's not going to be a "win" for Ukraine - a third of Ukraine will now be Russian territory, and they'll have lost more-or-less an entire generation of men.

Ukraine is not willing to accept losing territory in a negotiated peace. Their conditions are quite clear, they want their land back to 1994 levels, including Crimea. Why would they accept anything less, after they fought so hard and sacrificed so much?

A "lose" situation for Russia is still leaving Ukraine with more territory than they had initially, at the cost of not even a full mobilization of troops. Yes, Russia has a bloody nose from all of this, no question. But there's zero possibility here of a situation in which Zelenskyy "wins" this conflict. Man for man pound for pound, they've lost far more than Russia has, and they're not forcing Putin's troops home en-masse in any meaningful way.

Russia is losing men and equipment at a higher rate than Ukraine. While the initial stockpiles of weapons were much larger on Russia’s side, the production capabilities of new weapons are a differnt thing. Russia has managed to ramp up its production because it relies mostly on refurbishing stockpiles of old soviet equipment, which is cheaper and take less time than producing new equipment.

The problem with this type of ramp-up is that it will run out of equipment to refurbish (many estimates point to 2025 as the year when they run out of tanks/IFVs to refurbish). After that point, the production of new military vehicles will be much lower, and they won’t be able to properly equip their troops and replace the losses.

On the other side, Ukraine will benefit from a ramp-up in production on the Western side, so while the West will be able to donate more equipment, Russia will be able to produce less. This means that the balance of power will greatly shift in favor of Ukraine.

Add to that the increasing number of advanced weapons that Ukraine is allowed to use now than at the begining of the conflict, and the qualitative advantage will greatly turn in Ukraine’s favor.

The surprise Kursk invasion shows that Ukraine can still surprise analysts, and the fact that they were able to take more land in one week than Russia did in six months shows better strategy and more effective allocation of resources. As for Russia quickly taking back that land and encircling Ukrainian troops, that is wishful thinking on the Russian side. Ukraine is clearly trying to move the new border to the Seym river, where it has destroyed the bridges, making the resupply of Russian troops south of the river very difficult. After those troops surrender/retreat/are defeated and Ukraine secures all the land south of the river, the new positions will be very good for defending and creating a buffer zone inside the Kursk region.
 

Spitfire9

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Well, okay, but for example...

"whether Russia starts running low on fighting vehicles, missiles"



This won't happen, it's fantasy. Russia's a monster of production, even on their own, and you factor in the whole China/NK/Iran thing...

Look, we all want this to go as well as possible for Ukraine. But you have to set a realistic ceiling on what's possible to do: it'd be stupid for the west to put any of their own boots on the ground, nobody wants that. The allowing western weapons for strikes inside Russia is already a *really* slippery slope, and not a road I think is wise to go down. Russia, while a paper tiger in a certain sense, isn't *entirely* paper, and they're more than capable of taking the gloves off too. Keep in mind they haven't even really broken out the big guns in terms of air power yet, they've been pretty overly cautious and playing all that close to the chest. F-16's are useful to Ukraine, yay, but they're a 40 year old airframe and something Russia's more than capable of countering with their newer aircraft they've barely used yet.

The US and Europe might be willing to ramp up weapons production, yes. But not for Ukraine. That's thinking "the day after" type of thing, worst case scenario for if Russia's dumb enough to go further into Poland (they're not dumb enough).

It might sound defeatist, but Ukraine isn't coming out of this thing with anything resembling a "win", or even intact as a whole country by 2014 standards. The UK's sent them about all they can, Norway's not much of a factor one way or the other, and the US has a ceiling in which it's not going to involve itself further.

This Kursk incursion succeeds, Zelenskyy has some territory and prisoners to strengthen a negotiating position? Great, awesome. Thing is, they're already lying about the numbers of Russians they've taken POW (it's nowhere near 20 000, usual Uke propagandist horseshit), and it's pretty damn likely these top-tier troops of theirs get cut off & encircled any week now. I wouldn't be hugely optimistic, ballsy a move as this invade-Russia-back tactic may be.
Fighting vehicles: I think Russia is losing tanks many times faster than it is producing new ones. I read that a lot of stored tanks are being brought back into service but they are older types and the stock is finite.

IISS estimate for 2023 T-90 production: 60-70
IISS estimate for 2024 T-90 production: 60-70+
IISS estimate for 2025 T-90 production: perhaps 90


Analysts have tallied 3,000 destroyed, abandoned and captured Russian tanks. Numerically, that's the entire pre-war force—and the losses are disproportionately modern tanks rather than the older T-55s and T-62s the Russians began dragging out of open-air vehicle parks shortly after the war widened.


I believe that Russia has put about 20 Su-57 into service since 2019. No avalanche of those being produced, it would seem.

Russian shell production has ramped up enormously, it seems. Ukraine's allies nowhere near as much.

I know little about Russian weapons production but apart from shells (and drones?) I don't see Russia producing the number of weapons required to maintain supply to its armed forces at the rate they are being used/lost. Additionally, the Kremlin has to find a way of paying for new production. Ukraine does not have to find the cash to settle for weapons supplied.

I suspect that Putin privately bitterly regrets deciding to wage a blitzkrieg attack on Ukraine intended to topple the country in a few days or weeks... and finding himself stuck in an extremely expensive stalemate years later.
 
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contricusc

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Well, okay, but for example...

"whether Russia starts running low on fighting vehicles, missiles"

This won't happen, it's fantasy. Russia's a monster of production, even on their own, and you factor in the whole China/NK/Iran thing...

Russia is a monster of production because it refurbishes old Soviet equipment from storage. Once they run out of things to refurbish, their production levels will drop a lot.

As for their allies, only China is a true manufacturing powerhouse, but so far they are unwilling to help Russia with weapons, because that would mean the end of their economic relationship with Europe. China wants to keep Europe as an economic partner, to counterbalance the US, and it is not willing to sacrifice this relationship for weak Russia, which will sell them cheap oil and gas anyway, because it has no alternative.

As for the eternal friendship between China and Russia, this is just another wishful thinking for Russian supporters. China’s relations are transactional in nature. They only look for their own interest, and they are extracting lots of benefits from Russia at a very low cost, so there is no need to help it more. Also, the weakenuing of Russia is in the interest of China, just as it is in the interest of Europe. In the end, the Chinese and the Europeans don’t have any land disputes and can be real economic partners, while both of them can put pressure on Russia from both sides. China still has territories to recover from Russia, not from Europe.

Look, we all want this to go as well as possible for Ukraine. But you have to set a realistic ceiling on what's possible to do: it'd be stupid for the west to put any of their own boots on the ground, nobody wants that. The allowing western weapons for strikes inside Russia is already a *really* slippery slope, and not a road I think is wise to go down.

The West needs to allow Ukraine to strike anywhere in Russia with the donated weapons. All the restrictions currently in place are total nonsense that are limiting the effective use of those weapons. But slowly the restrictions will be lifted, as it has happened before.

Russia, while a paper tiger in a certain sense, isn't *entirely* paper, and they're more than capable of taking the gloves off too. Keep in mind they haven't even really broken out the big guns in terms of air power yet, they've been pretty overly cautious and playing all that close to the chest.

The Russians have basically used everything they have except nuclear weapons (and chemical weapons). They don’t have any secret weapons left to deploy. They have used air power to their maximum capability.
 

TheInsider

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The real problem is not tanks. Russians are ramping up the production of missiles, gliding bombs, kamikaze UAVs, and artillery shells. The accuracy of Russian missiles, UAVs, and gliding bombs improved greatly. I think Ukraine is moving towards a dire situation.
 

Spitfire9

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The real problem is not tanks. Russians are ramping up the production of missiles, gliding bombs, kamikaze UAVs, and artillery shells. The accuracy of Russian missiles, UAVs, and gliding bombs improved greatly. I think Ukraine is moving towards a dire situation.
A good way to reduce the glide bomb damage to Ukraine is to strike the bases in Russia from which aircraft carrying them take off. Ukraine seems to be able to neutralise all or nearly all attack drones if numbers do not swamp defences.
 

Relic

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The real problem is not tanks. Russians are ramping up the production of missiles, gliding bombs, kamikaze UAVs, and artillery shells. The accuracy of Russian missiles, UAVs, and gliding bombs improved greatly. I think Ukraine is moving towards a dire situation.
You need armor and artillery to conduct offensives. There is no reality in which Ukraine can take the offensive to Russia if it doesn't have sufficient armor to go on the offensive.

Both sides are losing loads of armor and artillery to drone strikes and counter battery fire. Defended land is extremely difficult to take in this war without exceptionally high losses.

Ukraine isn't it in a particularly dire situation. There is no situation in which Russia can penetrate deep into Ukraine and sustain those forces. Nor can Ukraine.
 

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