Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[contricusc]

Again, there is no reality in which Ukraine was going to achieve the type of air superiority that the United States has had during it's modern armoured invasions.

Of course not. Nobody says it would. But it is also undeniable that a few dozen F-16s armed with modern munitions would have brought a significant boost to this offensive.

When we’re talking about thousands of young men being sent to death, there is no excuse for not sending additional weapons that could reduce losses.

If F16s and a few hundred cruise missiles would have reduced Ukrainian casualties even by only 20%, it is criminal not to send them, because you are basically sacrificing thousands of men for some dirty political reasons.

 

[contricusc]

doesn't it looks little bit similar to something happened 21 years ago?
(With much lower intensity of course)

A European state actor seems to have legitimacy for certain kind of actions in wartime that otherwise would be considered as an act of terrorism if it were done by other non-western state/non-state actors. (Speically, let's say....it was against a Western Capital)

There is a difference between a country retaliating in a war after it has been invaded, and a terrorist organization organizing terror attacks.

Is it that hard to see the diffeence?

 

[Afif]

There is a difference between a country retaliating in a war after it has been invaded, and a terrorist organization organizing terror attacks.

Is it that hard to see the diffeence?

Of course, there is a difference.
Perhaps my phrasing was misleading. And I apologise for that.

However, my main point is, let's say.....if iraqi covert operation force did similar drone strikes on financial centers of London, New York after it has been invaded by Us led coalition (on false charges of WMD) do you think it would have been seen as legitimate?

I strongly suspect the opposite.

That's why I said-
"A European state actor seems to have legitimacy for certain kind of actions in wartime that otherwise would be considered as an act of terrorism if it were done by other non-western state/non-state actors. (Speically, let's say....it was against a Western Capital)"

 

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685538124728803328

@Gary
A European state actor seems to have legitimacy for certain kind of actions in wartime that otherwise would be considered as an act of terrorism if it were done by other non-western state/non-state actors. (Speically, let's say....it was against a Western Capital)

This one uses a smaller plane so it is legitimate.

 

[Gary]

However, my main point is, let's say.....if iraqi covert operation force did similar drone strikes on financial centers of London, New York after it has been invaded by Us led coalition (on false charges of WMD) do you think it would have been seen as legitimate?

How is Iraq responsible for 9/11 ? Anyway Imo, the targeting of Russian civilian centers is just as legitimate as Russia's own targeting of Ukraine's centers. This is just 2 opposing countries exercising the basics of air power.

Off course as we on the other parts of the world has seen the absolute euphoria the West had when it comes to see Ukraine doing the dirty work after decades of lecturing people what can and cannot be classified as civilized.

The thing with the West is they classify something based on their particular taste/whim of something. The US bombed civilian centers in its 20 years war in Afghanistan ? That's because they are doing this to help democracy so its legitimate, they will find it alien if lets say someone came up to them and say "Look the Soviet Union bombings of Afghanistan is justified because they are there to defend Communism" so it is bad and needs to be called out.

For them>>

Democracy = good, we can do do whatever we wants and its justified because muhh democracy
Other than democracy= Oh no, not good, they can't do that, it is violating human rights and barbaric. We must stop them.

Realize it or not the world has more or less accept/ forced to accept that democracy = good, and the only accepted order of the world. Thereby the barbaric acts done by the West all over the world doesn't have the same uproar as when Russia is doing the very same. Because their collective subconscious minds identify this camp as equals to - democratic.

You see, the most hardcore supporters of Ukraine's current situations are either :

1. Hardcore anti Russian folks doing it because of nationalist issues and historic grievance (Baltics, Poland)
2. The Twitter pro-Democracy/freedom advocate in their bio (lol) with flags of Ukraine all over the place.

No.1 is understandable, No.2 is the most funny of all, because they do this while championing fellow HR abusers like the US. But its ok because USA= democracy.

In fact such was the power of deceit democracy has, countries like Israel gets away with whatever they want to do, because they are identified in the subconscious mind (in the West) as democratic.
So you know, in the end it actually helps tilt the balance that people interact (and treat) Russia just as any other criminals and HR abusers out there, with dignity and respect. I'm personally against boycotting them in games or whatever international events for example. I hope the Non-Western camp realized this on how to balance things in the long run. Because unless you're Singapore (a country pretty much dependent on the current Western world order to exist) you don't have much to gain by openly going against Russia.

Bush here in Indonesia, treated with respect after the mess he created, I don't see why can't we do the same for Putin (well if its not for the fact that Russia has very little to offer lol).

 

[Afif]

How is Iraq responsible for 9/11 ?

It isn’t. I am talking about hypothetical scenario where Iraq carries out similar drone strikes on Western capitals (like Ukraine on Moscow) after being invaded by US led qualition.

 

[contricusc]

However, my main point is, let's say.....if iraqi covert operation force did similar drone strikes on financial centers of London, New York after it has been invaded by Us led coalition (on false charges of WMD) do you think it would have been seen as legitimate?

I strongly suspect the opposite.

Of course it would have been legitimate. If a country is invaded and bombed by another country, it has the right to retaliate.

The invading country may call the retaliations as acts of terrorism, just like Russia calls the Ukrainian attacks terrorism, but this doesn’t mean they are not a legitimate form of retaliation.

 

[Dmitry]

Russian terrorist attack on a residential building in Kriviy Rig today

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685905426171187200

 

[Relic]

Of course not. Nobody says it would. But it is also undeniable that a few dozen F-16s armed with modern munitions would have brought a significant boost to this offensive.

When we’re talking about thousands of young men being sent to death, there is no excuse for not sending additional weapons that could reduce losses.

If F16s and a few hundred cruise missiles would have reduced Ukrainian casualties even by only 20%, it is criminal not to send them, because you are basically sacrificing thousands of men for some dirty political reasons.

To be clear, there is absolutely nothing criminal about the West choosing when, and how much of their resources they send to Ukraine. You might have a moral objection to it and that's fine, but young (and old) men have died in wars for all of human history. I don't like it any more than you do, but it is the reality of mechanized warfare that there will be casualties. Again, the USA had tens of thousands of them against deeply inferior and outmatched Iraq, despite more air support than anybody could ever ask for.

I'm fully aware of the weapon's suite available to the F-16. At the altitude Ukraine would be forced to fly them (similar to that of their Migs and Sus) to remain under Russia's air defense umbrella, their affect would be minor. They would likely have slightly better range with HAARMS at that altitude. They'd have short range use of JDAMS. There is no guarantee that the U.S. would even provide JASSMs (even know they should). Most of the guided bombs they could drop are glide bombs, that require altitude and proximity to the front line, which is a definite problem for Ukraine.

The reality is that right now, the best use of F-16s for Ukraine would be airborne air defense platforms, featuring a payload consisting of six AIM-9X sidwinder and / or AIM-120 AMRAAM, capable of intercepting airborne targets on route to their respective destinations. Essentially, an airborne NASAMS systems, with additional range and the ability to move rapidly.

 

[Ecderha]

Another one..
ruZZian Su34 was shot down

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685903925642473472

 

[UkroTurk]

Russian terrorism going on

As a result of the strike on Krivoy Rog, 4 people were killed, 43 more were injured. Among dead There is a 10-year-old child.

NEXTA Live

В результате удара по Кривому Рогу погибли 4 человека, ещё 43 пострадали. Среди погибших — 10-летний ребёнок. @nexta_live

t.me

NEXTA Live

Момент прилёта ракеты по жилому дому в Кривом Роге. @nexta_live

t.me

Труха⚡️Україна (Украина)

⚡️Актуальные события Украины!

t.me

Edit:
The number of wounded in Kryvyi Rih has increased to 73, - the head of the Defense Council of the city of Vilkul.

Among the injured are 8 children.
22 wounded were taken to the hospital.
5 dead.

A day of mourning has been announced in the city on August 1 🕯

 

[Ecderha]

Uff....tz tz tz

What Kazakhstan is doing?
Siding with evil thug putin will have vary bad consensuses

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685886704354484224

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685886981417611265

 

[Ecderha]

Over 60% households in ruzzia do NOT have indoor plumbing.
This is the one of main thing that drive ruzzian invaders to loot toilets, washing machines etc. They never have it and never used.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685708001976651776

 

[Bogeyman]

China imposes drone export curbs amid US tech tensions​

China has announced export controls on some drones and drone-related equipment, saying it wants to safeguard “national security and interests” amid escalating tension with the United States over access to technology.

The restrictions on equipment announced on Monday, including some drone engines, lasers, communication equipment and anti-drone systems, would take effect on September 1, the commerce ministry said.

The controls would also affect some consumer drones, and no civilian drones could be exported for military purposes, a ministry spokesperson said in a statement.

“China’s modest expansion of the scope of its drone control this time is an important measure to demonstrate our stance as a responsible major country, to implement global security initiatives, and maintain world peace,” the spokesperson said.

Authorities had notified relevant countries and regions, the spokesperson said.

China has a big drone manufacturing industry and exports to several markets including the US.

US lawmakers have said more than 50 percent of drones sold in the US are made by China-based company DJI, and they are the most popular drone used by public safety agencies.

Not for military conflicts​

DJI said on Monday it always strictly complied with and enforced laws and regulations of the countries or regions in which it operates, including China’s export control regulatory requirements.

“We have never designed and manufactured products and equipment for military use, nor have we ever marketed or sold our products for use in military conflicts or wars in any country,” the drone maker added.

A German retailer in March 2022 accused DJI of leaking data on Ukrainian military positions to Russia, which the company rejected as “utterly false”.

China’s commerce ministry said in April this year that Western media were spreading “unfounded accusations” that it was exporting drones to the battlefield in Ukraine, adding the reports were an attempt to “smear” Chinese firms and it would continue to strengthen export controls on drones.

The drone export curbs come after China announced export controls of some metals widely used in chipmaking last month, following moves by Washington to restrict China’s access to key technologies, such as chipmaking equipment.

Beijing on Friday defended its dealings with Russia as “normal economic and trade cooperation” after a US intelligence report released last week said Beijing possibly provided equipment used in Ukraine that might have military applications.

China imposes drone export curbs amid US tech tensions

Beijing says it wants to safeguard ‘national security and interests’ amid escalating tension with Washington.

www.aljazeera.com

China will either make its neutrality clear or officially side with the Russians.

 

[UkroTurk]

Russia hits Kherson, many injured

July 31, 2023, 18:46

Kherson under enemy fire

The youngest victim is only 16 years old. The girl was taken to the hospital in serious condition, the chairman of the OVA said.

 

[UkroTurk]

The threat level is very high: after a break, the enemy brought missile carriers into the Black Sea​

20:08, 07/31/23



A surface ship and two submarines equipped with Kalibr are in the sea.

The Russian occupation forces are increasing the presence of launch vehicles in the Black Sea. On Monday, July 31, after a break of several days, the enemy put ships equipped with Caliber into the sea.

"During the day, a surface rocket carrier was put on combat duty, and now an underwater one has also been added. Thus, up to 12 Kalibr-type missiles are ready. The level of missile threat is very high," the Yug Operational Command reports.

The population is asked to be vigilant, if necessary, go to shelter. It is noted that the Defense Forces are on the alert, but the consequences of combat work can be dangerous.

 

[contricusc]

The reality is that right now, the best use of F-16s for Ukraine would be airborne air defense platforms, featuring a payload consisting of six AIM-9X sidwinder and / or AIM-120 AMRAAM, capable of intercepting airborne targets on route to their respective destinations. Essentially, an airborne NASAMS systems, with additional range and the ability to move rapidly.

Even if that would be its best use, it would still save lives (mostly civilian lives in this case) which still shows that delaying the delivery is a criminal act.

 

[Ecderha]

ruZZian new type vehicle agains drones - "obr. 2023"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1686073997841039360

 

[Relic]

Even if that would be its best use, it would still save lives (mostly civilian lives in this case) which still shows that delaying the delivery is a criminal act.

Again, you're misusing the word criminal by making a moral appeal. There is nothing criminal about another country not giving their assets to Ukraine. They don't belong to Ukraine, and, therefore, Ukraine does not have a right to those assets.

You and I can both agree that we would have liked to see Ukrainian pilot training for F-16s start a number of months ago, but there is more to it than simply training pilots and delivering airframes. Namely, maintenance upkeep for the aircraft and and above all else, layered air defense over the air bases that they planned to house the F-16s at. You'd need more Patriot and / or SAMP/T for balistic missiles defense, layered with NASAMS and / or IRIS-T to intercept cruise missiles and shorter range systems such as BUK or Gepard to intercept drones. Defending an air base (let alone multiple) housing F-16s would be extremely difficult. Russia would invest enormous resources into destroying those facilities.

F-16s are going to be a nice oart of the puzzle, but they won't be a silver bullet of sorts.

 

[contricusc]

Again, you're misusing the word criminal by making a moral appeal. There is nothing criminal about another country not giving their assets to Ukraine. They don't belong to Ukraine, and, therefore, Ukraine does not have a right to those assets.

In theory, you are right, but this is taking the things out of context. This war is not just Ukraine vs Russia. It is by extension a war between the West and Russia fought by the Ukrainians, and it is the moral duty of the most powerful Western military to help them win the war with the least casualties.

There is a disproportionate balance of power between the US and all the other Ukraine allies, which makes US restraint the more shameful. Consider the amount of weapons delivered by Poland compared to their total military arsenal, and compare that to the US. Poland delivered tanks, helicoptes and fighter aircraft, while the US delivered none of the above so far, despite having huge numbers of everything, far beyond what they actually need.

So on one hand you have Poland which has serious security concerns and yet it gives lots of weaponry compared to their total arsenal, and on the other hand you have the US which has no security concerns of its own (by being by far the most powerful military in the world) and a huge arsenal, yet it is extremely slow in delivering weapons.

European countries have delivered tanks, which US has still not delivered.

European countries have delivered fighter jets (soviet type), the US still has not delivered any jets.

European countries have delivered cruise missiles (storm shadows), the US still has not.

And all of this while the US has far more military power than European countries combined, and far less threats.

There is really no excuse for not sending cruise missiles and ATACMS.

My feeling is that the US wants to avoid a quick Russian defeat and tries to prolong the war as much as possible, which is why I call it criminal.

F-16s are going to be a nice oart of the puzzle, but they won't be a silver bullet of sorts.

They won’t be a silver bullet, but they are needed and have been needed since the start of the war. If preparations had started immediately after the invasion, Ukraine would have been able to deploy them by now.

All those delays caused by political decisions are only extending the war and causing additional loss of life. Those evil politicians are treating the war as if it was some sort of a computer game, not a real war where people are needlesly dying.