Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[Woland]

Did they changed the rule yet?

The fencing federation is discussing revising the rules of handshake for the future, but Olya Harlan is already disqualified from the World Cup. In the meantime, the Olympic Committee has issued Harlan an automatic qualification to participate in the 2024 Olympics.

Basically the Fencing Federation acted brainlessly and now both the Fencing Federation and the Olympic committee are trying to figure a way out of the situation. Prior to this the Olympic Committee already had so many scandals that this is just the tip of iceberg. Sports federations, from the Olympic Committee to FIFA have shown a shocking amount of idiocy, corruption and ineffectiveness in the last 10 years.

 

[Nilgiri]

I don't get it, the Russian athlete was competing as a neutral to begin with.

So how is a determination made by another that she is fully onboard with her country's actions in Ukraine?...to not handshake?...even by their own logic. That logic would need the other athlete to be officially representing their country.

IOC is indeed hypocrite organisation here.

As Chess fan, I know the policies that FIDE have taken against Russia as a whole right after the war started.....which surprised me to begin with given strength of Russia within FIDE (especially its politics side).

All Russian competitors compete under FIDE neutrality now in FIDE events.... action was taken against players like Karjakin who expressed support for the war even (FIDE essentially refuses to invite him to their events now). So every Russian player that does compete neutrally are ones that dont comment openly and even have issues with the war but have to measure way they can express this given their families back home etc (I have seen for example the discomfort Ian Nepomniatchi has o n the topic but still takes his stand against the war: https://english.elpais.com/sports/2...sian-who-opposes-the-invasion-of-ukraine.html)

Action would be taken against anyone that doesn't give the handshake or boycotts a game with a Russian in Chess now competing under FIDE flag (and the only way they can with FIDE just like how IOC took action against Russia after Sochi doping).

This is about the best compromise that is achieved....there is difference between Russia the state and Russians the people (and treat them collectively as the same thing no matter what).

"No handshake" in chess is at best grandfathered in in very rare instances, but nothing to do with politics/war, just personal dispute like between Kramnik and Topalov but thats different long story. It is unacceptable to do past that.

Did the Russian fencer openly express support of the war or something like Karjakin (who did so in pretty gross way too) ?

Would IOC do same thing if issue involved american and iraqi athlete w.r.t iraq war?

If not, then a handshake should be given (neutral flag) and IOC should stick with the principled rule applied to one that doesnt give it. Making exceptions makes the issue worse.

 

[Gary]

The IOC is basically saying, YOU (athletes) are responsible for the action of the elites of your country, even though in Russia public participation in the political decision making itself doesn't give much chance to commoners.

And people are celebrating this.

 

[Woland]

The Russian public should be treated similarly to the German public post-WWII. By default everyone is assumed guilty, and inaction is also guilt. This stance is furthered by the fact that even now polling shows that the majority of Russian continue to support Putin, and the majority certainly supported him both when the war first began in 2014 and when the full-scale war launched in 2022.

The Russian public has excused itself from political participation for years while its army raped, murdered and pillaged. Excepting us to shake their hands is disgusting.

Did the Russian fencer openly express support of the war or something like Karjakin (who did so in pretty gross way too) ?

Her brother serves in the Russian army: https://eng.obozrevatel.com/section...ion-has-turned-a-blind-eye-to-27-07-2023.html

 

[Nilgiri]

The Russian public should be treated similarly to the German public post-WWII. By default everyone is assumed guilty, and inaction is also guilt. This stance is furthered by the fact that even now polling shows that the majority of Russian continue to support Putin, and the majority certainly supported him both when the war first began in 2014 and when the full-scale war launched in 2022.

The Russian public has excused itself from political participation for years while its army raped, murdered and pillaged. Excepting us to shake their hands is disgusting.


Her brother serves in the Russian army: https://eng.obozrevatel.com/section...ion-has-turned-a-blind-eye-to-27-07-2023.html

OK, then the Ukrainian competitor has a point here from her standpoint (and I sympathise with her).

i.e Neutral flag is just used as flag of convenience here by Russian athlete.

I still don't like IOC making exception here....as then it has to make exceptions on same basis consistently with other wars and politics.

They have let stand penalties on Arab and Iranian athletes for their non-handshake stuff with Israelis for example (some athletes being IDF or reservist etc)....it becomes matter of perspective the athlete has on Israel and IDF policy have on Palestinians etc....and often sometimes state direction on the subject external to whatever the athlete thinks (e.g Iran and this has played out in Chess world I know quite well too)

So if they boycott or dont handshake, do they get an exception from IOC? This is why I bring up the US and Iraq situation as well.

This just opens a can of worms depending on who has more actionable consensus in these organisations on wars and conflict.

More support to Ukraine will be eroded in Western world by that.... because not everyone is in same context as say an Ukrainian, Polish, Baltic state or Finnish person is with their (justifiably visceral) impression of Russian state and Russian public perceive psyche and role in it.

 

[Relic]

The IOC is basically saying, YOU (athletes) are responsible for the action of the elites of your country, even though in Russia public participation in the political decision making itself doesn't give much chance to commoners.

And people are celebrating this.

Yes. Countries are made up of people. Governments are voted into power (in democracies) by those people. Those people are accountable for the actions of the Governments that they support via their vote(s) and their tax dollars.

Every single Russian of a voting / tax paying age, is responsible for their current actions in Ukraine. They should be spared no quarter and treated with absolute shame when participating internationally. If you want to denounce Russia, leave the country and pay taxes and allegiance elsewhere. Otherwise, you should be viewed as accountable. Period.

 

[Woland]

More support to Ukraine will be eroded in Western world by that.... because not everyone is in same context as say an Ukrainian, Polish, Baltic state or Finnish person is with their (justifiably visceral) impression of Russian state and Russian public perceive psyche and role in it.

I don't disagree, however not everything can be seen from the prism of PR. Athletes who refuse to shake the hand of a Russian mostly do so on moral or emotional grounds, or for the same reasons that I stated above and why I also consider it disgusting to shake the hand of a Russian.

Personally I have no issue with other nationals also refusing to shake the hand of those they feel are representing a country whose actions they deem despicable.

 

[Gary]

Yes. Countries are made up of people. Governments are voted into power (in democracies) by those people. Those people are accountable for the actions of the Governments that they support via their vote(s) and their tax dollars.

Every single Russian of a voting / tax paying age, is responsible for their current actions in Ukraine. They should be spared no quarter and treated with absolute shame when participating internationally. If you want to denounce Russia, leave the country and pay taxes and allegiance elsewhere. Otherwise, you should be viewed as accountable. Period.

Well its not like people don't know the double standard of institutions with "international" titles on them. Its just fun to see the hypocrisy being exposed now.

By this logic itself the common Western people (escpecially the likes of US, UK, Poland) are accountable for the chaos their elected government bring to other parts of the world and thereby are legitimate target for retaliations elsewhere.

 

[Gary]

OK, then the Ukrainian competitor has a point here from her standpoint (and I sympathise with her).

The thing is all sport has a regulatory body. In motorsport its the FIA, in olympics its the IOC. This regulatory body has authority over partcipants willing to compete under events it held and they have the power to force participants to respect whatever deems as law. Any sort of defianxce means sanctions.

In this case the IOC just show how helpless it is against popular opinion in only one part of the world. That Olga Kharlan lady refuses to shake hands ? Pftt, get the fuck out of the sport entirely. That's how regulatory body works. That's how it works everywhere.

 

[Afif]

Well its not like people don't know the double standard of institutions with "international" titles on them. Its just fun to see the hypocrisy being exposed now.

By this logic itself the common Western people (escpecially the likes of US, UK, Poland) are accountable for the chaos their elected government bring to other parts of the world and thereby are legitimate target for retaliations elsewhere.

My man! some logic only works in one way.
You of all people should know that by now.

 

[Gary]

My man! some logic only works in one way.
You of all people should know that by now.

The Ukraine-Russia dispute really force these 'international' institutions to walk naked and expose whatever open secret people have been suspicious at behind their coat.

 

[Relic]

Well its not like people don't know the double standard of institutions with "international" titles on them. Its just fun to see the hypocrisy being exposed now.

By this logic itself the common Western people (escpecially the likes of US, UK, Poland) are accountable for the chaos their elected government bring to other parts of the world and thereby are legitimate target for retaliations elsewhere.

Yes, Western (and all others) countries are responsible for whatever they do internationally and domestically. I think that as a planet we let people off the hook far too easily. There is very little accoutanbility globally.

 

[MaciekRS]

The IOC is basically saying, YOU (athletes) are responsible for the action of the elites of your country, even though in Russia public participation in the political decision making itself doesn't give much chance to commoners.

And people are celebrating this.

Yea, they are responsible. In Poland we have a rule now that russian athletes are forbidden to enter our country even if they have Schengen Visa provided by other EU country. Last week there was some tennis player from russian that flew to Poland for tournament and was blocked to enter at the airport. In that way Ukrainian sportsmen are safe in here, they dont have to compete against enemy .
Russian athletes CAN get Polish Visa if they publicly condamned russian unprovoked war.

 

[Gary]

Yea, they are responsible. In Poland we have a rule now that russian athletes are forbidden to enter our country even if they have Schengen Visa provided by other EU country. Last week there was some tennis player from russian that flew to Poland for tournament and was blocked to enter at the airport. In that way Ukrainian sportsmen are safe in here, they dont have to compete against enemy .
Russian athletes CAN get Polish Visa if they publicly condamned russian unprovoked war.

Oh btw, Polish law or whatever sentiment there is in Poland is not to be used in the IOC or how it will be run, just in case anyone forget anything. The 'I' in IOC stands for International.

If lets say the IOC were to held competition in X country, they must guarantee that the country the event is hosted comply with the rule of the OIC or else just move the event somewhere else.

Condemning Russian adventure is not an IOC business.

 

[Ryder]

Oh btw, Polish law or whatever sentiment there is in Poland is not to be used in the IOC or how it will be run, just in case anyone forget anything. The 'I' in IOC stands for International.

If lets say the IOC were to held competition in X country, they must guarantee that the country the event is hosted comply with the rule of the OIC or else just move the event somewhere else.

Condemning Russian adventure is not an IOC business.

Honestly in the fifa world cup qualifying playoff Poland was suppose to face Russia in the playoffs due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine the Russians got kicked out and Poland got an automatic qualification into the world cup.

I say its bullshit and unfair either they should have played at a neutral ground or Russia should have been replaced with another team.

 

[Gary]

Honestly in the fifa world cup qualifying playoff Poland was suppose to face Russia in the playoffs due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine the Russians got kicked out and Poland got an automatic qualification into the world cup.

I say its bullshit and unfair either they should have played at a neutral or Russia should have been replaced with another team.

Its a long open secret that they have dual standards, it doesn't even have to be debated at all.

But as I said, the Ukraine-Russia violent land dispute really proven the open secret of the preferential treatment of these organization with 'international' stickers slapped all over it. From the OIC, IOC (lol very similar name here), FIA etc.

I see as Asian nations continues to grow in power and wealth there will be some sort of competitor of the OIC or any sports governing bodies. As @Nilgiri has noted, people will take notice after this. Now that the preferential treatment has been exposed.

 

[Gary]

Oh, one more thing to add here, ignoring your stance towards Putin's military adventure, he and Russia does indirectly proven the long held popular assumption/ suspicions that these 'international bodies' are no international at all, not in spirit and not in conduct and in fact just more or less a Western tool which comply to whatever mood there is in the West.

You may hate Putin, but at least thank him for willingly be a living lab rat for us to point out the real hypocrites running the show.

Putin has done an under-appreciated great service to the nations of the world here. Just sayin.
You will one day find this invasion usefull in political arguments.

 

[MaciekRS]

Since we are in the sport subject. There was a russian hockey player who played in Polish league, he sign the papers to condamn russian invasion and last month he was caught spying for russia .

Russian hockey player arrested in Poland on suspicion of spying

The Russian, who has been arrested for three months for fear of escape, faces up to 10 years in prison

news-liga-net.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Ecderha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685151864558596096

 

[Ecderha]

African people will have die from starvation this year because of putin.
Deal crucial to Africa on the safe wartime export of Ukrainian grain, which putin tore up last week

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1685186160128032768