Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Relic

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The topic of ATACMS Ballistic Missiles has been a popular one on this board and around the internet. But there have been plenty of misconceptions regarding ATACMS and the reasons that they were not being sent to Ukraine.

The popular narrative was that is was more of a political decision, because the U.S. didn't want to risk Ukraine striking into Russia with the long range weapon. In reality, however, that was and always has been only a secondary consideration. The fact is that Ukraine listens when the USA definitively tells them not to use U.S. donated long range weapons in Russia proper. Ukraine doesn't dare do anything to the contrary, out of fear that they will have their access to those weapons cut off for geopolitical reasons.

The truth is that USA genuinely did not have many that they were willing to send from their strategic arsenal. Estimates were that the U.S. Army and Marine Corps had approximately 1200-1500 ATACMS units in their arsenal and that included M39 shorter range, older variants, complemented by newer M48 and M57 (unitary warhead) variants. Eventually, USA chose to send a small number (20 or fewer) of the older M39 variant, to use specifically against two Russian helicopter bases in occupied Ukraine, that housed the KA-52s that were wreaking havoc on Ukrainian armor. We saw those missiles used to devastating effect last fall, when Ukraine decimated 14 KA-52s in a single night at the aerodromes mentioned above, forcing the Russians to pull their KA-52s back into Russia and out of the fight.

Fast forward to today and the situation surrounding ATACMS has changed significantly with the arrival of the PrSM (Precision Strike Missile) into U.S. Army inventories. The PrSM is a drastic upgrade that is quickly making ATACMS obsolete in U.S. inventories, which in turn, increases the number that can be sent to Ukraine. USA received its first PrSM's in December, 2023. They are scheduled to receive many more throughout 2024 and the U.S. Army recently signed a new contract with Lockheed Martin to purchase an additional $219 million usd worth of PrSM's in a contract that will carryover into 2025. Every time a new batch of PrSMs arrives, more ATACMS can be sent to Ukraine and it appears that the M48 and M57 extended range variants are now being sent as well. A recent strike on the Dzhankoy airfield in Crimea saw ATACMS used to shred Russian S-300 air defense systems on site.

Furthermore, Lockheed Martin remains at a full rate production of 500 M57 ATACMS missiles each year, most of which are for export to American Allies such as Poland, Australia, South Korea, and recently, the Baltic countries. However, a portion of those 500 M57 variants were being purchased by the U.S. military each year and now that they are buying PrSMs instead, those missiles can now be purchased using American USAI funding and will be sent directly to Ukraine. Recently, in the $6 Billion usd USAI package , the category "Ammunition for HIMARS" was included as an item that would be procured directly from American industry. Make no mistake, that was worded in that manner to be purposely generic and avoid specifying GMLRS vs ATACMS, both of which are munitions fired by HIMARS and both of which were purchased under that title.

So that leaves the important question of just how many ATACMS (of all variants) can Ukraine expect to receive? I think that if we're going to speculate, it would serve us well to be conservative. Let's say that from PDA USA will be willing to send 1 ATACM for each 1 PrSM that they receive in 2024. From all public sources that are available, it appears USA will receive approximately 75 PrSM's, after receiving 55 in the initial December, 2023 batch. That means by the end of 2024 USA will have received roughly 130 PrSMs, which, in turn, should make 130 ATACMs available for transfer to Ukraine. If we factor in USAI procurement direct from Lockheed Martin (which previously went to USA) we can, conservatively, add another 50 missiles to that total. Therefore, in 2024 Ukraine should get approximately 180 mixed variant ATACMS to bolster their medium / long range strike capability. Certainly enough to do substantial damage to Russian bases in Crimea and in the rear of the Donbas, but not nearly enough to act as some silver bullet.

So if Ukraine can reasonably expect to receive 180'ish ATACMs over a 12 month period, what weapons can / need to be sent to augment their medium / long range strike capability? That equation starts and likely ends, with Western cruise missiles. Ukraine has already proven that they can use British / French made Stormshadow / SCALP-EG cruise missiles highly effectively. The problem, of course, is supply and Ukraine is short when it comes to the quantity it possesses in its inventory. So how many more will they get in 2024? Earlier this year French Prime Minister Macron announced that France would send an additional 40 units of SCALP-EG in 2024. Meanwhile, Britain announced that they will be sending additional Stormshadow missiles among a package of 1600 strike / air defense missiles. But how many of those missiles are Stormshadow cruise missiles? We don't know for sure, but let's be conservative and go with the number 40, to match the French donation. Britain announced just this week that domestic manufacturer MBDA is moving into surge production of Stormshadow to restock British inventories and increase availability to Ukraine. What we've found out recently, however, is that another country has quietly pledged to donate Stormshadow as well and that country is Italy, who helped the French and British design the cruise missiles and also stocks large quantities of them. Because Italy is highly secretive of the quantities of what they send to Ukraine, we must be ultra-conservative in guessing how many units they are willing to send. Let's go with 20 units in 2024, half as many as their British and French counterparts. That brings the conservative total of Stormshadow cruise missiles from France, Britain and Italy, for Ukraine, up to roughly 100 units in 2024, all of which can be fired from Ukraine's fleet of SU-24 aircraft.

While the European contribution of cruise missiles has the capacity to be impactful this year, it's really USA that truly has the ability to send a meaningful number of cruise missiles to Ukraine in 2024. Those missiles, of course, are JASSM cruise missiles, which Ukraine will be able to launch when it receives it's initial batch of F-16s at some point this summer. JASSM has the ability to be the ultimate compliment to Stormshadow / SCALP-EG and ATACMS, as Ukraine seeks long range strike solutions. As it stands, the U.S. Air Force keeps an inventory of 1000-1500 JASSM cruise missiles on hand at any given time. Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin produces an additional 550'ish units per year for domestic consumption and foreign sales. Funding in the most recent Ukrainian aid package will provide requisite dollars to increase that number to close to 1000 units per year, which is Lockheed Martin's stated goal. USA purchases 400-450 JASSMs per year, with the remainder sold to Allies. That means any JASSMs sent to Ukraine will come directly from American Air Force inventories for the foreseeable future, using PDA. So what's a reasonable number that USA can afford to send along with the arrival of Ukraine's F-16s? Given that USA will receive another batch of close to 500 JASSMs in 2024, one could see them being willing to send Ukraine approximately 200 units from their exisiting inventories. As the JASSM-ER and JASSM-XR gain favour in U.S. Air Force inventories, the original JASSM missiles remaining are aging and becoming increasingly obsolete for American purposes. With substantial funds recently passed to surge production and replace them with more of the newer variants, 200 older model JASSMs seems like a reasonable and conservative number.

In summation, using a substantial amount of sourcing, combined with highly conservative estimates, it's my prediction that Ukraine will receive the following medium / long range strike weapons in 2024.

M39 / M48 / M57 ATACMS (USA PDA): 130 units

M57 ATACMS (USA USAI): 50 units

Stormshadow (Britain): 40 units

SCALP-EG (France): 40 units

Stormshadow (Italy): 20 units

JASSM (USA PDA): 200 units

Total: 480 medium / long range strike ballistic and cruise missiles.
 
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Ryder

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That's clearly not how it works, when the country is in an economic downturn, inequality keeps on rising, youth unemployment and inflation is the name of the game, the last thing you want (as a government) to is borrow money...to send it to other countries.

This is what the average Americans see, whether the Europeans accept it or not.




Holy shit and I thought you couldn't be even more comical. But then again being dumbassery has always been your stock in trade for the last year or so.

In the 50s the average American can afford:

  1. A house (or two) with huge lawn, not a rented room
  2. A family usually with two kids or more
  3. A car that they actually own, and not having to worry about getting confiscated by creditors.
For the modern Americans this isn't achievable for most of them. This is why you're seeing van culture popping out and degeneracy spread as youths are no longer willing to have families (and the responsibilities that comes with it).

You mention smartphones and computers as if the Americans actually progress LOL

In the 50s, the average American family looks like this

eznfovhfpz3b1.jpg


The car ✅
The house (with a huge lawn and car park, interior bathroom, TVs and an integrated sink etc) ✅
and even the Tricycle ✅

Is something that an average Indonesian family couldn't comprehend

images


No car (what's a car ? LOL)
Bathroom ? Go to the nearest river


See the difference?

And now talking about smartphones and computers. The 21st-century Indonesian family has TV, Computers and every kid as young as 10 now has smartphones. So it's either Indonesia has advanced very rapidly (I don't think so) or the Americans have lost that wealth gap that they usually enjoy during their golden era.

Western Economic system that is full of inequality.

Communism was seen as the next thing but that led to dictatorships and poverty.

Capitalism you need to money to survive while communism you will just starve to death.

Western economic system is hailed as the best thing ever but more you research and dive down into it its full inequality with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer not to mention how governments are puppets to various corporations and companies.

Lets look at interest in particular. Interest is nothing more than slavery that is used to trap people into ever cycle of debt then you have finance which is another word for interest where people trap themselves into buying cars and paying enormous prices for it.

Lets not forget the taxation system the average citizen cant declare 100$ they will easily fine him even throw a person into prison for not paying taxes while the rich get all sorts of tax breaks.

Look at the taxes we get charged like gst, carbon tax, luxury tax so on so on.

But yeah politicians expect the working class and lower classes to send their sons to fight their wars abroad.
 

Gary

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Except that the US has a very low unemployment rate, and those Trumpists that have fallen for this type of propaganda are not young at all.

They are people frustrated with their declining health due to old age and with the current culture trends, and they are venting their frustration on anything their master tells them to.

And yes, there are also some young Trumpists who just went with the trend, but Trumpism is more present in older people.

And how is that wrong ? Age 65 these people have seen a lot and with that flight hours they could actually compare what's the state of affairs of current America and the America they grew up (the 50s and 60s).

They clearly know something is missing.

This is just not true. Modern Americans can easily afford nicer homes and cars than their grandparents. The problem is that a lot of people have made very bad life choices, such as doing drugs and taking on debt when young, and this is why they fail miserably in their life.

Hello

People who are hardworking and disciplined with their life can easily make it in the US. This is why people from all over the world want to emigrate there. Not because there is a lack of opportunity as you try to present it.

Umm no, the thing has to do with the gap between the rise of cost of ownership and inflation.


The offshoring of jobs to Asia creates a lot of unemployment, while inflation runs rampant...and you have an overworked, overstressed Americans. The trend in house ownership, the decline of young adults starting a family is a clear symptom of this. People could no longer afford shit.


Indonesia has advanced very rapidly for sure. The wealth gap between wealthy and emerging countries has shrunk a lot in the last 70 years.

Of course, the US is much wealthier and there are much better opportunities for average Americans to build wealth than there are for the average Indonesian, but the wealth and opportunity gap is lower than in the past.

This doesn’t mean that Americans have it worse than seventy years ago. It is just that the growth in the quality of life has been lower in developed countries than in developing ones, which is just the natural way of things.

That's not even the point mate, just because they have smartphones, TV and shit doesn't mean that their life quality is any better than their elders. It's just they're enjoying the products of their era the same way their elders once had access to radio when the elders of those elderly once had not.
 

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That implies that they actually have a huge reserve behind them that has yet to be exhausted in combat. Let's see how's the Ukrainian mobilization goes.

So Russia has :

  • A huge manpower fresh manpower yet to be used
  • A huge advantage in artillery and ammo
  • increasingly accurate and timely ISR
  • increasingly competent air force with precision munitions
 

Gary

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Everything I said in this piece last year debating @contricusc (27 March 2023)eventually manifested in 2024. 😅

I am ALWAYS right.
It doesn't have to be a 1:1 comparison. Yes, there's no American dead yet in Ukraine but that's not even remotely the point. If this war grind on, the Americans (either they got directly affected or not) will start questioning their entire involvement in the war.

You see, in 2001 in Afghanistan, no one in the U.S will ever imagine that in 20 years time they have to flee the country humiliated...at the time the general wisdom is, we got it under control, we just put a loyalist government in Afghanistan and they're going to fight there instead of us, what could possibly go wrong ? The same naiveness shown today for what appears to be a young war.

It depends on the Russian willingness to extend the war and for how long, wait long enough and the advantage will be Russia's. In 10,20, 30 years time the world is going to change a lot. No one will guarantee that every U.S administration will be the likes of Biden and no one could absolutely guarantee that domestic U.S opinion will not change the political outlook of the states. Wait long enough and the people in the States consciously or provoked will start asking "why are we spending so much in Ukraine ?, instead of healthcare (maybe)?" and then this will roll and roll until it turns into a very big political snowball that the U.S government could no longer dodge.

The thing is for Russia, whatever the scenario is, the West is never in the game of Endurance, they got tired, bored, lose interests and so on.




U.S losses is only piecemeal in number, but again persist long enough (add that to domestic problems) and people will start looking for answer. People will start dumb question like, why are we spending so much abroad, and not build schools instead blah blah blah...and in return the Politicians (who needed their vote) will naturally start to cease support gradually.

Time and time again, Its not the battlefield victory that U.S/West antagonist should be looking at, its the defeat at home that they should go for. Its not going to be a 1:1 comparison yes, but the underlying problem is the same. No one understands this better than Vo Nguyen Giap of Viet Nam or Mullah Omar of Afghan Taliban. Putin himself a student of history, should go check this out.


It is the war in the middle east started by an unprovoked attack on U.S soil that gave rise to populist like Trump in the first place, what are the chance that people got tired their tax money is used for a war that has nothing to do with an actual attack on U.S soil ? Maybe another fertile ground for another Trump style populist ?


Motivated yes, but the numbers will not be their advantage...in Afghanistan and Viet Nam the two underdogs understand their weakness and goes underground, Ukraine on the other hand is going head on knee to knee which will gradually scrape their overall power.

Motivation on Ukraine's side would only be effective with continuing support by their Western allies, lose that support and there's no point for Igor to be motivated because there's nothing left to fight Russia with.

You can boast motivation aloud, but in the face of bad prospects, people will start looking elsewhere, in Syria the refugee seeker started gradually from a very popular and energetic uprising.

In the end, the fighting men in Ukraine does have the prospect of a long war with Russia or leave the country and find safe place for him and his family to stay. And the family part is why many fighting men in Syria left their country. In the Battlefield they're just as motivated, but enter the family safety equation and the whole motivation started to collapse..and I bet people in Ukraine are no different.

The war is like a year long and Bali is getting flooded by men of fighting age from Ukraine (and Russia)


so much so we are planning to stop issuing Visa


Yes, that's why they only likely have to wait long enough until that very support scraped thin enough over time. They have the industry, and more importantly population to sustain this. 142 million vs 40 million its very clear who will run out of men early. Especially when the casualty ratio on both side are humongous.

Just in case anyone forget, Ukraine is 2nd rate in importance to other more pressing issues (like Taiwan).

But yes I acknowledge in the end it is yet to be seen how the Russian siloviki enforce its will on keeping society bend under its whim to continuously go to war...but if they do (and they can) and they wait patiently long enough its a natural advantage for them.




The war in Afghanistan and Viet Nam is also tiny both from monetary and manpower and loss perspective, but their gradual tiredness is always there and it repeats again and again, either in Viet Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq and later on probably Ukraine.


1. Domestic issue takes its toll
2. Ukrainian men will eventually sideline nation for family


A child needs a father,” he said.
Now, he could be stranded after a controversial law stripped fighting age men abroad of consular assistance. Those between 18- and 60-years-old will only be able to replace their passports in the Ukraine, meaning they will have to return to the country - and risk the draft.
The move, designed to help plug a dire manpower gap in the country’s armed forces, addresses long-running tensions over men who managed to evade a ban on foreign travel for the duration of the war. But critics, including some serving soldiers, have warned it may be unconstitutional and will simply encourage those who are already overseas to stay away. Poland has suggested it could even deport Ukrainian men back to their home country for conscription.
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For his part, Vladimir, 39, will not be heeding the call and returning: “It was morally difficult [to leave] but I decided my family needs me. I don’t feel any kind of pressure from family or friends to go back. My mates all understand my situation.”
 

Relic

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Israel 🇮🇱 is retiring its Patriot Batteries in favour of more advanced Iron Dome, David's Sling and Arrow 3 air defense systems, after a surge of funding from the United States 🇺🇸 in the recently passed aid supplemental.

This would be the perfect opportunity to get Ukraine 🇺🇦 the additional Patriot Batteries they've been asking for. Whether sold to Ukraine directly, or purchased by USA for direct transfer to Ukraine, Ukraine is looking for a total of 7 Patriot batteries to compliment their SAMP/T Battery, as well as their tier 2 and tier 3 systems such as NASAMS, IRIS-T SLM / SLS, FrankenSAM, Skynex, Crotale, Gepard, Avenger, etc...

 

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This is pure cope and disinformation.

1. The recent U.S. aid package literally included funding specifically for an auditor general to oversee the weapons transfers to Ukraine to ensure they were being procured and used appropriately.

2. The claim from the American Right is that approximately $40 million usd "went missing" due to corruption, out of more than $100 Billion usd worth of military aid and macroeconomic funding for Ukraine. Furthermore, the macrofinancial loans that were included in the latest package specifically state that they CANNOT be used to pay Ukrainian state pensions, something the American Right was concerned about.

Spartz knows very well what she's doing. "We don't know how our money is being used" is BS designed to create doubt in America regarding the legitimacy of Ukraine's cause. She knows very well that the overwhelming majority of that money is being used to pay a conscript / volunteer military and it's associated support structure, that is 4-5x the size of the regular Ukrainian military during peace time. Ukraine is spending nearly 50% of its federal budget to support the war effort and USA 🇺🇸 / European Union 🇪🇺 funds are keeping the government solvent while they they do that.

Spartz is simply a Russian stooge, flapping her gums to make money and gain clout. She's a moron, and the exact type of Right Wing clown that the Patrick Bet David Podcast thoroughly enjoys propping up and introducing to the mainstream via their YouTube audience.
 

contricusc

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And how is that wrong ? Age 65 these people have seen a lot and with that flight hours they could actually compare what's the state of affairs of current America and the America they grew up (the 50s and 60s).

At 65 years of age, people see their youth through the effect of nostalgia. They remember the good old days when they were young, healthy and strong and had an active life, and by association they think everyhting was better back in the day.

I know many older people in Romania who are nostalgic for the communist times, and they say it was better back than, when in reality we lived in total poverty compared to what it is now. You really can’t take seriously the opinion of 65 year olds when they speak about the time of their youth.

Old men remember with nostalgia the time when they could get an erection without taking pills, and they think everything was better back then because of that. The truth is it was not.

Umm no, the thing has to do with the gap between the rise of cost of ownership and inflation.

Housing is in a bubble because of the long period of low interest rates. This has allowed people to bid up housing prices to extreme levels, and this is why they are unaffordable now. All it takes is for a prolonged period of high interest rates to deflate the hausing bubble (it will be painful for many but it is necessary to correct the mistakes of the past).

Also, people need to adjust their wants to their possibilities. Many people complain about not affording a house because they want to live above their means in a wealthier neighborhood than what they can afford. Poor people should look for cheaper houses in less desirable areas, but people today are so entitled that they think they deserve anything.

Entitlement is the biggest differentiator between now and seventy years ago. Today’s Americans are much more entitled and believe they should have everything they want without putting the effort, and this is why they keep complaining while making bad life choices like doing drugs, choosing a bad education and taking on student debt so they can party for four years in a luxury five stars university.

The offshoring of jobs to Asia creates a lot of unemployment, while inflation runs rampant...and you have an overworked, overstressed Americans. The trend in house ownership, the decline of young adults starting a family is a clear symptom of this. People could no longer afford shit.

It is just that the unemployment is very low in the US. You have a lot of service sector jobs now, instead of thr factory jobs of the past. People have easier jobs now, which contributes to the higher quality of life.

The decline in young adults starting a family is more cultural than economical, because decades of extreme feminism have turn many American women into undesirable harpies who want to trap men into a divorce and milk them of child support money. This has resulted in many men going MGTOW as they want to avoid the risk of financial ruin that is modern marriage.

That's not even the point mate, just because they have smartphones, TV and shit doesn't mean that their life quality is any better than their elders. It's just they're enjoying the products of their era the same way their elders once had access to radio when the elders of those elderly once had not.

Technological advances do matter and they improve the quality of life. Just like when people replaced horse-buggies with cars they had a boost in quality of life, the same happened when people replaced radios with computers, smartphones and smart TVs.

The access to affordable high tech products is something unseen before in the history of mankind, and this has contributed greatly to the increase in standard of living everywhere. Just by having a smartphone and an internet connection people can now access tons of educational material and they can self-grow if they are willing to put the effort. You couldn’t do that in the past.
 

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GMaAEA_XYAA_RYy


US Treasury department eases sanctions against 10 largest Russian banks

Transactions with Russian banks for payments for energy, including oil, gas and timber, were allowed.


The United States no longer believes that Ukraine will win the war. And they are giving a signal of softening to the Russians.

@Ryder @TR_123456 @Anmdt @Yasar_TR @Zafer @Mis_TR_Like @Kartal1
They probably want to slow down the coming of a BRICS currency.
 

Ryder

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GMaAEA_XYAA_RYy


US Treasury department eases sanctions against 10 largest Russian banks

Transactions with Russian banks for payments for energy, including oil, gas and timber, were allowed.


The United States no longer believes that Ukraine will win the war. And they are giving a signal of softening to the Russians.

@Ryder @TR_123456 @Anmdt @Yasar_TR @Zafer @Mis_TR_Like @Kartal1

Remember the bullshit lie that Russia has ran out of missiles and jets.

All they ever did was create a false illusion to the Ukrainian cause.

Did more harm than good.
 

contricusc

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Total: 480 medium / long range strike ballistic and cruise missiles.

This is a little over 9 missiles per week, which means Ukraine could do on average a serious strike every week if the missiles you mentioned are delivered.

Considering that many of the missiles will be available only after the F16s are operating, it means that the strike capability of Ukraine will be greatly improved in the second half of the year.
 

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undirect goal..US have no reasons to help UA directly, but undirectly, what happens today already waited by the US since long time a go
I doubt this war will weaken Russia. They had no idea if their fighters would do fine against western systems, now they know.
They had no idea how capable their systems, now they know.
They did not know the soft spots of western systems, now they know.
They were not aware how big the economic effects would be, and what they can do to secure their money, now they know.

Russia has a lot more experience and knowledge than any of the European country than ever before.
 

UkroTurk

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GMaAEA_XYAA_RYy


US Treasury department eases sanctions against 10 largest Russian banks

Transactions with Russian banks for payments for energy, including oil, gas and timber, were allowed.


The United States no longer believes that Ukraine will win the war. And they are giving a signal of softening to the Russians.

@Ryder @TR_123456 @Anmdt @Yasar_TR @Zafer @Mis_TR_Like @Kartal1

The aim of this action must be Decrease of tension due to usage of blocked Russian assets.


Kinda we charged you 5 billion but don't cry to much you can earn another 5 billion.
But anytime we could cut your breath.
So we are the boss and you are looser. We choose the ones who makes money on earth.
 

MaciekRS

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I doubt this war will weaken Russia. They had no idea if their fighters would do fine against western systems, now they know.
They had no idea how capable their systems, now they know.
They did not know the soft spots of western systems, now they know.
They were not aware how big the economic effects would be, and what they can do to secure their money, now they know.

Russia has a lot more experience and knowledge than any of the European country than ever before.
Yes, now they know.
Today on russia site topwar was an article in which they realize that Pakistan have more AVACS then Russia. And russia in the last 30 years lost capabilities to build new one.

And one of commentaries from russian
"Compared to the background of truly developed countries, they are of course backward, but this is a different question. If backward countries have already overtaken us in some respects, then where are we in relation to developed countries?"

Remember that Ukraine even before the war was one of the poorest countries in Europe.
 

Relic

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Norway 🇳🇴 Australia 🇦🇺 and Latvia 🇱🇻 have jumped on board the string of countries announcing new military aid packages for Ukraine 🇺🇦.

Today Norway 🇳🇴 announced that they will send Ukraine $600 million usd worth of air defense support in 2024, along with $30 million usd in humanitarian aid. The air defense support is expected to come in the form of additional NASAMS systems and air defense interceptors.

Australia announced a new $65 million usd package for Ukraine that includes short range air defense systems, UAVs, generators, and personal protective equipment.

Meanwhile, Latvia 🇱🇻 announced that they will join Estonia 🇪🇪 in giving Ukraine 0.25% of their GDP in military aid in 2024 and beyond. They announced a new aid package today consisting of undisclosed air defense and enhanced UAV production.



 
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