Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

[FiReFTW]

Unlike the Russians, the Ukrainians are not fighting a war of conquest. If Russia stops fighting, Russia remains. If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine disappears.

There is also the small matter of whether the people of Ukraine would prefer to live under totalitarianism or to live under democracy. With family connections in Ukraine but less than in 2022 (one, a civilian, died after the Russians occupied aouthern Kherson), I am certain that most people in Ukraine would hate to live in a state governed by Russia. Some would rather die fighting. Some do.

Its not about stopping the fighting its about sitting down and making a deal, yes you sacrifice territory but stop the war, stop the killing and of course safety guarantees that Russia can't possibly ever wage war on Ukraine in the future, problem solved.

 

[FiReFTW]

For the first time, I agree with you that Europeans are truly stubborn.
Your example proves it
How many times have we explained to you that Europeans didn't start this war? How can they stop it? By refusing to support Ukraine? But the Russians will quickly occupy all of Ukraine and reach the Polish border. I wonder what you'll say then?
It seems you're the most stubborn European

By sitting down and negotiating a peace.

 

[Spitfire9]

The Ukranian war is hurting the economy yes, for whole of Europe not only 1 country, those are just facts.

Russia's invasion had an immediate adverse effect on the world - crude prices shot up, grain prices shot up. Worldwide.

 

[Spitfire9]

Its not about stopping the fighting its about sitting down and making a deal, yes you sacrifice territory but stop the war, stop the killing and of course safety guarantees that Russia can't possibly ever wage war on Ukraine in the future, problem solved.

The only sure guarantee that Russia would not attack Ukraine again would be if Russia could not attack Ukraine again.

How can that be achieved?

 

[Iskander]

By sitting down and negotiating a peace.

It seems you missed the initial stage of the conflict. Frau Merkel and monsieur Hollande tried everything 10 years ago. They and Putin reached two peace agreements on Ukraine – Minsk I and Minsk II. But, alas,
Putin long ago decided to revive the USSR. And that's impossible without war. That's the main reason for the war.
Europe has nothing to do with it.

 

[FiReFTW]

The only sure guarantee that Russia would not attack Ukraine again would be if Russia could not attack Ukraine again.

How can that be achieved?

Well thats impossible so lets come back to reality, any country can attack any country at any time, nothing makes that impossible.

However if you put some measures into the mix where such an attack would be devastating for the attacking country, then it will be absolutely stupid and inconceivable for that country to do that.

Your from the UK, so you should be able to understand all of this.

 

[FiReFTW]

It seems you missed the initial stage of the conflict. Frau Merkel and monsieur Hollande tried everything 10 years ago. They and Putin reached two peace agreements on Ukraine – Minsk I and Minsk II. But, alas,
Putin long ago decided to revive the USSR. And that's impossible without war. That's the main reason for the war.
Europe has nothing to do with it.

Doesn't matter if Europe has nothing to do with it, ending the war is the priority.

 

[contricusc]

The Ukranian war is hurting the economy yes, for whole of Europe not only 1 country, those are just facts.

I tried to make the analogy with the US tariffs on Switzerland, so that you could finally understand that you cannot negotiate the end of a conflict that was unilaterally started, when the aggressor still thinks it has the upper hand. It is not possible.

Just like the Swiss cannot force Trump to lift the tariffs, and if he is not willing to negotiate, there is nothing they can do about it, the same situation is true for Ukraine and Europe against Russia.

Putin is not willing to negotiate the end of the war under reasonable terms, so there is nothing Ukraine and Europe can do to have peace. Their only option is to fight and increase the pain on Russia, until the Russians are willing to negotiate a just peace, which means withdrawing from the whole of Ukraine, and allowing it to join the EU and NATO.

 

[Spitfire9]

I tried to make the analogy with the US tariffs on Switzerland, so that you could finally understand that you cannot negotiate the end of a conflict that was unilaterally started, when the aggressor still thinks it has the upper hand. It is not possible.

Just like the Swiss cannot force Trump to lift the tariffs, and if he is not willing to negotiate, there is nothing they can do about it, the same situation is true for Ukraine and Europe against Russia.

Putin is not willing to negotiate the end of the war under reasonable terms, so there is nothing Ukraine and Europe can do to have peace. Their only option is to fight and increase the pain on Russia, until the Russians are willing to negotiate a just peace, which means withdrawing from the whole of Ukraine, and allowing it to join the EU and NATO.

I think that events even before the invasion cast doubt on NATO membership being a guarantee of security to members. Didn't one US president say that if members did not 'pay their way' the US would not come to their aid if it was needed?

To me it would be better for Ukraine to join an EU that increased spending on defence to a level where it could guarantee the protection of all members due to its military strength, a strength provided by weapons made by EU countries. That is not the position now, so some less secure interim arrangement for Ukraine's security would need to be made. The problem of corruption in Ukraine would also need to be fixed before it would qualify to join the EU.

 

[TR_123456]

To me it would be better for Ukraine to join an EU that increased spending on defence to a level where it could guarantee the protection of all members due to its military strength, a strength provided by weapons made by EU countries.

That guarantee would only be possible in a decade,not before.
Combine the current European militaries plus the production capacity of weapon systems and you will see that Europe cant even defend itself for a longer period(a month at most).