USA United States Air Force

[Nilgiri]

I’ve heard some aviation experts arguing that behind civilian side lagging lays the replacement of aviation engineering philosophy with business management mentality whereas, as you pointed out, the military domain was still run by MD team which upholds engineering side.
Come to think of it, makes sense too. I mean, you don’t need really take market demands, finance, costs and what not into account. You don’t need to cut corners. You only have to be precise and meticulous to meet USAF requirements and costs are not a big deal.

Yah its long story. In the end "guns vs butter" getting lumped together as "guns AND butter" in one entity has its effects from the issue baked into "vs" to begin with.

For military ("guns" side), it has long been (in some ways since the Bronze age, but definitely in modern era even more so) premium IP frontloaded, gestated and driven to generally low production numbers and selective top-down supply-fed availability to what we call our men-at-arms.

Things (in modern era) that would just collapse under own weight if you rely on "butter" dynamics market demand, ROI and so on to pull it w.r.t the whole population (and its great differences to the men-at-arms small subset of it)....as these rely on slowly + optimally converting that premium IP to something that addresses more mundane (but obviously still important) large efficient production volumes which operates on lower margins over time (as investment + capital on this basically saturates over time) and is fundamentally oriented to civic needs and subjective preferences that govern free market.

There was an excellent paper I read 20+ years ago, that involved analysing a study that Pentagon commissioned to look into what exactly could be implemented (given top down insular "guns" side its responsible for).... from the command-economy model that USSR had at the time. But the pentagon study always basically realised the distinction and need for insularity to military domain alone.

It in many ways is same reason there is ideological training and high discipline in order to make sense of training in military (and the insularity and requirements to join and progress and so on)....compared to civilian domain where these are far less regimented.

The problem of course for USSR was it extended this kind of thing to the whole gamut of economy (GOSPLAN etc) and it basically came with great costs to what is better handled by "butter" dynamics in consumer goods etc (these do ultimately serve larger population morale, their material needs, overall supply competition to help economize supply side and so on).

i.e It is the butter side that ultimately pays for guns in the end....so there needs to be balance in the approach given relative sizes of each population and agenda.

 

[Azeri441]

This is unbelievable BREAKING NEWS that F-47 NGAD will be built by Boeing when most people were speculating LM or NG.
So POTUS Donald Trump has said -
- It will be most advanced, capable, lethal jet.
- Its prototype has been flying secretly since 5 YEARS.
- It will be superior in stealth, speed (Mach 2+, may be supercruise), payload than all current figters, nothing comes even close.
- USA's enemies will never see it coming.
- It can fly with as many drones as desired.
- The price is not revealed intentionally yet which might indicate some technologies.
His associate standing beside him added that they will have generations of air dominance for their grand kids bcoz of the technologies in it.
2 USAF generals including chief were also standing beside.
There are 2 blurred posters showcased on both his sides, by which it looks like "Bird of Prey" concept.

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IDK how this jet can supercede all current jets in speed, agility, payload.
But time will tell soon now. Lots of media & documentaries will be coming.

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No, most people were speculating Boeing because LM and NG already have their hands full

 

[Gessler]

So the F-47 will have canards:

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

No, most people were speculating Boeing because LM and NG already have their hands full

American citizens with their news network might have expected Boeing.
But bcoz LM won ATF & JSF programs which gave them revenue, experience, continued confidence, hence people outside West who obviously would not watch American news channels, would expect LM or NG.
If LM could manage F-22 & F-35 in 1990s then it & NG can manage at least 2 jets today also. NG has B-21, what else? What LM is busy with?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

So the F-47 will have canards:

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It appears so, yes. The posters are heavily edited to hide many things like intakes, exhausts, wings, etc.
At this time, just for fun i would say that it can have "Bird of prey" type gull-wing, much wider, the drooped tip might be movable. The canards might enable a Naval version.
Lots of excitement till the jet is actually revealed like B-21.

 

[Azeri441]

American citizens with their news network might have expected Boeing.
But bcoz LM won ATF & JSF programs which gave them revenue, experience, continued confidence, hence people outside West who obviously would not watch American news channels, would expect LM or NG.
If LM could manage F-22 & F-35 in 1990s then it & NG can manage at least 2 jets today also. NG has B-21, what else? What LM is busy with?

thats exactly why LM and NG wasn't selected, United States wants to maintain multiple producers for national security instead of relying on 1 or 2 contractors.

 

[Azeri441]

So the F-47 will have canards:

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These are just artist renderings, NGAD program is changing requirements, and the final design will look vastly different

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

thats exactly why LM and NG wasn't selected, United States wants to maintain multiple producers for national security instead of relying on 1 or 2 contractors.

Well, that would be a political decision. But purely from tech PoV, LM & NG would give the best results. But in a capitaist economy, they might have demanded huge money. While Boeing has civillian market too but not LM, NG. So Boeing might have relaxed the cost. IDK Biden admin's thinking but Trump is businessman, so may be he didn't wan't to bow down to high cost quoted by LM, NG.