US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

VCheng

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Yep I'm sure the US will put the cobras right back on the table (along with all the other stuff cancelled), you know....the one that made Pakistan seek out T-129 in the first place.


The 200+ tier 1 guys at the pentagon that were field officers (and are now promoted to flag officers or more than that) dealing with the haqqani network + taliban back in the day (especially where their largest sanctuaries were)....sure have no role in any of this.

All of this can be regarded as "hostile" only if one ignores certain acts and events from the Pakistan side. This is a four lane highway with traffic on both sides.
 

Kaptaan

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Let me clarify the donkey that @Nilgiri and @VCheng have thrown in here and began to thrash. About the US officers, Haqqani network blah, blah. The so called infamy by Pakistan of 'running with the hares and hunt with the hounds'. And see who really was duplicitous and outright cheap cheater.

Go back to 2001 and when Taliban were ruling Afghanistan. Kabul then was more pro Islamabad and hostile to India. Taliban were a primitive bunch but in geo-politics you chase your interests and not their looks. Not long before that simiiar primitive bunch who could be described as proto-Taliban branded as Mu-jihad-een were Uncle Sam's fcuk buddies. But they were koshur because they only killed the bad Red Soviets.

As we all know US came kocking on Islamabad door after 9/11 and asked the then President Musharaf the rights to use Pakistani ports, airports, airspace and road infrastructure to invade Afghanistan. Pakistan agreed on one caveat.

"Please, pretty fcukin please do NOT allow any group or groups to take over Kabul that would be hostile to Pakistan" or words to the effect. Now I call that pretty fair. I mean which country would allow itself to be used to have a hostile regime installed as a neighbour?

Would Turkey willingly allow it's territory to be used by another power to say install PKK government in Iraq? Or Syria and thus threaten Turkey? Would USA allow it's territory to be used to instal a pro Venezuelan Hugo Chavesian type regime that would be inimical to US interests in Mexico. I don't think so.

What did USA do? As soon as it invaded it gave Kabul over to Northern Alliance, the very group that Pakistan feared. Thus America renaged on it's pledge. Now not naming names always going around trumpeting the idea that all countries pursue there interests, what do you think Pakistan was going to do?

Launch a war against USA for renaging and playing dirty? No, being the weaker country it did not have that option. What was the other option? Yes, begin support to the Taliban covertly so they could be counter weight to the new regime installed by USA that was hostile to Pakistan. This option was imposed on Pakistan by USA backtracking on it's pledge.

Was that policy vindicated? absolutely yes. Today USA is in talks with the same Taliban which now will play some role in future Afghan government in Kabul.

And thus we are here where we are with a sore Pentagon who can't see their own shenanigans but only feel the boot up their backside ....
 

Nilgiri

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All of this can be regarded as "hostile" only if one ignores certain acts and events from the Pakistan side. This is a four lane highway with traffic on both sides.

Honestly Pakistan dispensation continued approaching/fan-boying US for military gear after OBL raid.... strikes me as a number of things (regarding that lot)....none of them good.

There is seemingly next to no attention to the basic structure of how the Pentagon even works, and the inertia of certain things in the (more visceral) memory as promotions+time work their way through.
 

Nilgiri

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Let me clarify the donkey that @Nilgiri and @VCheng have thrown in here and began to thrash. About the US officers, Haqqani network blah, blah. The so called infamy by Pakistan of 'running with the hares and hunt with the hounds'. And see who really was duplicitous and outright cheap cheater.

Go back to 2001 and when Taliban were ruling Afghanistan. Kabul then was more pro Islamabad and hostile to India. Taliban were a primitive bunch but in geo-politics you chase your interests and not their looks. Not long before that simiiar primitive bunch who could be described as proto-Taliban branded as Mu-jihad-een were Uncle Sam's fcuk buddies. But they were koshur because they only killed the bad Red Soviets.

As we all know US came kocking on Islamabad door after 9/11 and asked the then President Musharaf the rights to use Pakistani ports, airports, airspace and road infrastructure to invade Afghanistan. Pakistan agreed on one caveat.

"Please, pretty fcukin please do NOT allow any group or groups to take over Kabul that would be hostile to Pakistan" or words to the effect. Now I call that pretty fair. I mean which country would allow itself to be used to have a hostile regime installed as a neighbour?

Would Turkey willingly allow it's territory to be used by another power to say install PKK government in Iraq? Or Syria and thus threaten Turkey? Would USA allow it's territory to be used to instal a pro Venezuelan Hugo Chavesian type regime that would be inimical to US interests in Mexico. I don't think so.

What did USA do? As soon as it invaded it gave Kabul over to Northern Alliance, the very group that Pakistan feared. Thus America renaged on it's pledge. Now not naming names always going around trumpeting the idea that all countries pursue there interests, what do you think Pakistan was going to do?

Launch a war against USA for renaging and playing dirty? No, being the weaker country it did not have that option. What was the other option? Yes, begin support to the Taliban covertly so they could be counter weight to the new regime installed by USA that was hostile to Pakistan. This option was imposed on Pakistan by USA backtracking on it's pledge.

Was that policy vindicated? absolutely yes. Today USA is in talks with the same Taliban which now will play some role in future Afghan government in Kabul.

And thus we are here where we are with a sore Pentagon who can't see their own shenanigans but only feel the boot up their backside ....

Where is the evidence of this pledge by the US w.r.t northern alliance?
 

Kaptaan

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Honestly Pakistan dispensation continued approaching/fan-boying US for military gear after OBL raid
It's called trying to extract the maximum out of a bad deal.
 

Kaptaan

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Where is the evidence of this pledge by the US w.r.t northern alliance?
It would take some effort for me to find some source to confirm this but until then I want you to use your your common sense. Would any country allow willingly to piggyback it's enemies into power? Does that make sense? I gave the example of PKK. Would Istanbul provide a logistical shoulder to have it's enemies installed next door? No, it would not. So logic alone tells you Musharaf would have asked this of of the Americans. I mean even thay turd had that much sense.

Northern Alliance despised Pakistan and Pakistan despised NA. This went back to even 1980s and the 1990s civil war when Pakistan supported Taliban against NA.
 

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Musharraf also mentioned the Northern Alliance, an anti-Taliban opposition group that has used the U.S. strikes to advance on a major Afghan city, Mazar-i-Sharif, from which it could potentially launch an attack on the capital Kabul.

Pakistan has traditionally condemned the alliance, which has ties with three of Pakistan's regional rivals, Russia, Iran, and India. Pakistan has warned that the alliance should not be allowed to seize power unilaterally, and has been disturbed by U.S. and British support for the group.

Powell, who spoke of the United States' "enduring commitment" to a relationship with Pakistan, tried to reassure Musharraf on the issue. He said the U.S. and Pakistan "both have a common goal in seeing that the post-Taliban government in Kabul would be one that represented all the people of Afghanistan and a regime that would obviously be friendly to all of its neighbors, [including] Pakistan."



If you want more I can trawl but I think this gives you a taster from when all this was playing out. But then this cnut Powel was the same guy who held a tube in US Assembly Hall and told the world bunch of pure, fabricated grade A bullshat that led to illegal invasion of Iraq and war crimes.
 

Kartal1

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Yes Renk transmission. Italian gun. There is many foreign input besides the mentioned. VLS / CiW / RAM
Turkey is on the last stage of development for the local 76mm cannon, a marine powerpack will probably be the fruit of a Turkish-Ukrainian venture (at least that is the plan), US VLS can be replaced with a Turkish made MDAS which is going to be used also in Istanbul class frigates together with a variety of Turkish missiles of which some are operational and other in development, CIWS is ready and operational and national equivalent of RAM with the name Sapan is being developed at the moment. In 2-3 years I think the most of the gaps will be filled. The biggest obstacle is the powerpack but very promising initiatives are being carried out together with Ukraine on that matter.
 

GoatsMilk

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Why these lessons are still being learnt is beyond me. We know the game and we know the tricks yet act surprised when it happens over and over again.
 

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Turkey is on the last stage of development for the local 76mm cannon, a marine powerpack will probably be the fruit of a Turkish-Ukrainian venture (at least that is the plan), US VLS can be replaced with a Turkish made MDAS which is going to be used also in Istanbul class frigates together with a variety of Turkish missiles of which some are operational and other in development, CIWS is ready and operational and national equivalent of RAM with the name Sapan is being developed at the moment. In 2-3 years I think the most of the gaps will be filled. The biggest obstacle is the powerpack but very promising initiatives are being carried out together with Ukraine on that matter.
That's theory , I know the developments. If you look back to MKEK projects you can't see a success story but always delays. If the projects will be realized in the next 5 years the ships for Pakistan could be delivered 2028-2030. Sapan is an electromagnetic gun and not RAM . Ukraine propulsion is based on gas turbines. Diesel Marine engines and transmissions are an other level. Milgem has CODAG propulsion. At the current stage it sounds all good but will need at least 10 years to produce the mentioned systems in TR.
Turkey is on the last stage of development for the local 76mm cannon, a marine powerpack will probably be the fruit of a Turkish-Ukrainian venture (at least that is the plan), US VLS can be replaced with a Turkish made MDAS which is going to be used also in Istanbul class frigates together with a variety of Turkish missiles of which some are operational and other in development, CIWS is ready and operational and national equivalent of RAM with the name Sapan is being developed at the moment. In 2-3 years I think the most of the gaps will be filled. The biggest obstacle is the powerpack but very promising initiatives are being carried out together with Ukraine on that matter.
 

Kartal1

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That's theory , I know the developments. If you look back to MKEK projects you can't see a success story but always delays. If the projects will be realized in the next 5 years the ships for Pakistan could be delivered 2028-2030. Sapan is an electromagnetic gun and not RAM . Ukraine propulsion is based on gas turbines. Diesel Marine engines and transmissions are an other level. Milgem has CODAG propulsion. At the current stage it sounds all good but will need at least 10 years to produce the mentioned systems in TR.
When it comes to the 76mm gun I am sure they will complete it. It is stated that the development is in the last stage. I am not talking about the electromagnetic gun Sapan. I am talking about the RAM project Sapan that seems to run from your eyes. The most of the systems will be ready before the 10 years mark you pointed. My only worry is about the powerpack but maybe alternative could be found for Pakistan.
 

MASA

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When it comes to the 76mm gun I am sure they will complete it. It is stated that the development is in the last stage. I am not talking about the electromagnetic gun Sapan. I am talking about the RAM project Sapan that seems to run from your eyes. The most of the systems will be ready before the 10 years mark you pointed. My only worry is about the powerpack but maybe alternative could be found for Pakistan.
You know MKEK has very limited capacities and not the best testimony in the past. But who knows ? Can you pls. share a link of RAM / Sapan ?
 

VCheng

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Honestly Pakistan dispensation continued approaching/fan-boying US for military gear after OBL raid.... strikes me as a number of things (regarding that lot)....none of them good.

There is seemingly next to no attention to the basic structure of how the Pentagon even works, and the inertia of certain things in the (more visceral) memory as promotions+time work their way through.

Madams and Johns, and the odd donkey show down in Tijuana! :D
 

Kartal1

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You know MKEK has very limited capacities and not the best testimony in the past. But who knows ? Can you pls. share a link of RAM / Sapan ?
Source: Turkish Navy & Savunma Havacilik Magazine
1615732954396.png


I first have read about Sapan on another forum. We don't know much about the project at all. Maybe @Cabatli_53 would have more up to date info on the project?
 

Cabatli_TR

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Source: Turkish Navy & Savunma Havacilik Magazine
View attachment 16008

I first have read about Sapan on another forum. We don't know much about the project at all. Maybe @Cabatli_53 would have more up to date info on the project?

I don't have much info but I predict that Sapan will be high likely Turkish RAM missiles.
 
E

ekemenirtu

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WZ-9 engines have poor power-to-weight ratio compared to the LHTEC and TS1400 engines, it won't perform as required. Plus, T-129 has some foreign components that the manufacturers won't be happy hooking up to Chinese hardware. It's LHTEC engines or no T-129.

Alternative being the T-629 with Turkish engines, but that would have to be a long term solution. Pakistan needs them attack helicopters ASAP

If that is the case, unfortunately, Pakistan may have to settle for drones (MALE/HALE UCAV) from Turkey or China, I guess, for use against insurgents/rebels in Balochistan. Full blown war against India seems unlikely at this time. An attack helicopter for use against Indians may be put on hold until the TS1400 engine matures.

Can six TB2 drones from Turkish Air Force inventory not be sold right now, if needed?
 

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It would take some effort for me to find some source to confirm this but until then I want you to use your your common sense. Would any country allow willingly to piggyback it's enemies into power? Does that make sense? I gave the example of PKK. Would Istanbul provide a logistical shoulder to have it's enemies installed next door? No, it would not. So logic alone tells you Musharaf would have asked this of of the Americans. I mean even thay turd had that much sense.

Northern Alliance despised Pakistan and Pakistan despised NA. This went back to even 1980s and the 1990s civil war when Pakistan supported Taliban against NA.
Northern Alliance wasn't in power post Taliban. An Interim Govt. led by an ethnic Pashtun - Hamid Karzai took over. Of course it had elements from the Northern Alliance.

Pakistan didn't know that the power vacuum created by the overthrow of the Taliban would largely be filled by leaders of the Northern Alliance? If they did, they should have refused the US permission to use its bases and airspace.
 

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