US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

[Kaptaan]

WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.

The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021


Mmmm wonder who was behind this blocking action? Just so as readers know Pakistan has serious issues with terrorist scumbags operating on the Af-Pak border and the vast Balochistan province. The geography of this region is actually the easternmost extention of the Anatolian highlands similiar to the areas in Turkey where PKK terrorists operate. The region is semi-arid, mountain/plateau at averaging 4-5000 feet with very low population density. Hot in summer and freezing in winter with very heavy snowfall.

One of the most vital project to Pakistan's future is laying down transport infra along what is known as the western corridor [marked in green line below] which will link with the new Gwadar port on the Arabian Sea. However not naming names do not want this project to succeed and are fininancing terrorists to drive away investors. Every weak a police or military patrol will be ambushed. This is easy as the vast region is mountainous and every bend or hill is ideal ambush location. Five minutes of ambush and the bad guys just run into the hills.

The only effective way to counter this is provide close air support that can be quickly be moved to the area to carry air recon and then provide fire support. The problem is high altitude, extreme weather takes toll on helicopters. The present fleet of Cobra helicopters are old and heavy use has made most of them out of service at any given time.

This is where these Atak T-129s come in. A fleet of them would have helped to scour the mountains and eliminate the terrorists. Clearly USA has no beef in this so you make your conclusions why USA blocked these - particularly as Pakistan will now be forced to buy Chinese helicopters which were tested and failed to meet the requirement in the tough conditions of Balochistan. Pakistan might well end up with a inferior product and lose more men on the mountain roads.

Ambush territory

@mulj @T-123456

 

[Kaptaan]

Honestly, I was looking forward to a squadron of these unleashed on the terrorists. Also Pakistan would have guranteed supply of spare parts to keep the fleet operating at max operational capacity. Our boys on the ground would have got a boost in morale. But alas ....

 

[Cabatli_TR]

USA's meaningless export policy. Who are they actually punishing when they ban Turkish gunships to Pakistan? They are encouraging the states like Turkey to develop their own sub-products to end dependency to US arms from screw to engines.

 

[TR_123456]

View attachment 15807


WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.

The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021


Mmmm wonder who was behind this blocking action? Just so as readers know Pakistan has serious issues with terrorist scumbags operating on the Af-Pak border and the vast Balochistan province. The geography of this region is actually the easternmost extention of the Anatolian highlands similiar to the areas in Turkey where PKK terrorists operate. The region is semi-arid, mountain/plateau at averaging 4-5000 feet with very low population density. Hot in summer and freezing in winter with very heavy snowfall.

One of the most vital project to Pakistan's future is laying down transport infra along what is known as the western corridor [marked in green line below] which will link with the new Gwadar port on the Arabian Sea. However not naming names do not want this project to succeed and are fininancing terrorists to drive away investors. Every weak a police or military patrol will be ambushed. This is easy as the vast region is mountainous and every bend or hill is ideal ambush location. Five minutes of ambush and the bad guys just run into the hills.

View attachment 15811
The only effective way to counter this is provide close air support that can be quickly be moved to the area to carry air recon and then provide fire support. The problem is high altitude, extreme weather takes toll on helicopters. The present fleet of Cobra helicopters are old and heavy use has made most of them out of service at any given time.

This is where these Atak T-129s come in. A fleet of them would have helped to scour the mountains and eliminate the terrorists. Clearly USA has no beef in this so you make your conclusions why USA blocked these - particularly as Pakistan will now be forced to buy Chinese helicopters which were tested and failed to meet the requirement in the tough conditions of Balochistan. Pakistan might well end up with a inferior product and lose more men on the mountain roads.

Ambush territory


View attachment 15808

View attachment 15809


View attachment 15810

@mulj @T-123456

There is not much to be done,you'll have to go for the Chinese Z-10ME.
My guess is that the contract will be changed to T-629,T-929 or both in the future.
Both with indigenous engines so,no bs.

 

[Combat-Master]

Pakistan held on and were hopeful for approval as was TAI General Manager - it seems the Pak-Turk Duo is too much of an threat to US interests, no holding us back bring the T-629 on with TS1400 engines with maximum offsets !

 

[TR_123456]

Pakistan held on and were hopeful for approval as was TAI General Manager - it seems the Pak-Turk Duo is too much of an threat to US interests, no holding us back bring the T-629 on with TS1400 engines with maximum offsets !

Delaying the inevitable,that is all the US and others can do.

 

[Kaptaan]

Then the American's croak on about why Pakistan pulls toward the Chinese. There is genuine anger in Pakistan against USA. I am Anglophile and tend to be easy with US but even I struggle to defend American policies. The amount of crap they have unloaded on Pakistan over the decades is shocking -

in 1965 war when Pakistan was desperately fighting India the US blocked all supplies. They had the audacity of saying it was "fair" as it applieed to both Pak and India. The reality was they kicked Pakistan in the crotch. Almost all defence products were of American manufacture. In 1960s Pakistan even relied on buying bullets from USA. Every single bullet, bolt, nut came from USA. The Indians had mostly Soviet stuff so the blockade had no effect on them. Within week the entire war machine began to grind down. It was only thanks to Turkey and Iran who also used primarily American equipment sent supplies on emergency footing.

After this began the effort to create indigenous capacity. It began with licence made G3 rifles etc and slowly has been moving up the scale.

In 1990 USA blockaded 30 F-16s which had been paid for and then locked them up at some storage facility for next few decades.

In 2001 USA threatened to bomb Pakistan back to stone age unless the country gave it's airbases, ports, roads and airspace for the invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan agreed with one caveat. Please do NOT let anti Pakistan faction take over Afghanistan. What this actually mean't was do not let the Northern Alliance [NA] take over which was rabidly anti Pakistan and supported by India.

This is akin to Turkey saying to Americans do NOT let PKK affliliated groups take over Damascus. For what is pretty obvious reason. Guess what USA did within weeks? They handed Kabul over to Northern Alliance. Ever since 2001 Afghanistan has been in effect ruled by NA. Which of course mean't Kabul suddenly became rabidly anti Pak and pro India. No surprises there.

What do you think Pakistan did then. Said "f** you" quitely and then began supporting Taliban to overthrow the pro NA government in Kabul that USA installed. What else do you expect? This of course has been the source of two decades of complaints about Pakistan being duplicitous ignoring that they made they left Pak no choice after they went back on their word in allowing NA to rule Kabul.

The good news now is they have woken up the reality that they made a mistake and are now negotiating a way out with Taliban with Pakistan enabling these talks.

 

[Kaptaan]

Example of why these choppers are needed in the vast expanse of Balochistan.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Then the American's croak on about why Pakistan pulls toward the Chinese. There is genuine anger in Pakistan against USA. I am Anglophile and tend to be easy with US but even I struggle to defend American policies. The amount of crap they have unloaded on Pakistan over the decades is shocking -

in 1965 war when Pakistan was desperately fighting India the US blocked all supplies. They had the audacity of saying it was "fair" as it applieed to both Pak and India. The reality was they kicked Pakistan in the crotch. Almost all defence products were of American manufacture. In 1960s Pakistan even relied on buying bullets from USA. Every single bullet, bolt, nut came from USA. The Indians had mostly Soviet stuff so the blockade had no effect on them. Within week the entire war machine began to grind down. It was only thanks to Turkey and Iran who also used primarily American equipment sent supplies on emergency footing.

After this began the effort to create indigenous capacity. It began with licence made G3 rifles etc and slowly has been moving up the scale.

In 1990 USA blockaded 30 F-16s which had been paid for and then locked them up at some storage facility for next few decades.

In 2001 USA threatened to bomb Pakistan back to stone age unless the country gave it's airbases, ports, roads and airspace for the invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan agreed with one caveat. Please do NOT let anti Pakistan faction take over Afghanistan. What this actually mean't was do not let the Northern Alliance [NA] take over which was rabidly anti Pakistan and supported by India.

This is akin to Turkey saying to Americans do NOT let PKK affliliated groups take over Damascus. For what is pretty obvious reason. Guess what USA did within weeks? They handed Kabul over to Northern Alliance. Ever since 2001 Afghanistan has been in effect ruled by NA. Which of course mean't Kabul suddenly became rabidly anti Pak and pro India. No surprises there.

What do you think Pakistan did then. Said "f** you" quitely and then began supporting Taliban to overthrow the pro NA government in Kabul that USA installed. What else do you expect? This of course has been the source of two decades of complaints about Pakistan being duplicitous ignoring that they made they left Pak no choice after they went back on their word in allowing NA to rule Kabul.

The good news now is they have woken up the reality that they made a mistake and are now negotiating a way out with Taliban with Pakistan enabling these talks.

Turks experienced a similar shock when liberating Northern Cyprus in 1974, where the US placed an arms embargo on Turkey that lasted 4 years. Most major military companies in Turkey were set up during that era due to that shock.

Turkey should have never allowed herself to become dependent on the outsider for weapons.

 

[Kaptaan]

Turks experienced a similar shock when liberating Northern Cyprus in 1974, where the US placed an arms embargo on Turkey that lasted 4 years. Most major military companies in Turkey were set up during that era due to that shock.

Turkey should have never allowed herself to become dependent on the outsider for weapons.

Yep. Self sufficiency and or from partners who can be trusted is only way forward. One of the problems with Pakistan defence forces is they have traditionally been postured for large scale, conventional war against India involving mass armour, artillery and air combat. This has left the country woefully ill equipped to deal with asymetrical warfare involving small bands of mobile terrorists who chose when to hit and then scatter.

This fight has been left to poorly armed paramilitary FC [akin to Turkish Jandarma] and Levies [sort of part time local guards]. In the ambush you see above is a FC vehicle.

As a sidenote the Baloch are related to Kurds and their language has the same contours and it is speculated they broke off from that region and moved east at some point in time.

 

[Ryder]

Yep. Self sufficiency and or from partners who can be trusted is only way forward. One of the problems with Pakistan defence forces is they have traditionally been postured for large scale, conventional war against India involving mass armour, artillery and air combat. This has left the country woefully ill equipped to deal with asymetrical warfare involving small bands of mobile terrorists who chose when to hit and then scatter.

This fight has been left to poorly armed paramilitary FC [akin to Turkish Jandarma] and Levies [sort of part time local guards]. In the ambush you see above is a FC vehicle.

As a sidenote the Baloch are related to Kurds and their language has the same contours and it is speculated they broke off from that region and moved east at some point in time.

Honestly Pakistan needs be like Zia Ul haq and deal with the Balochs with a iron fisted approach.

Send a message to every terrorist and separatist that breaking up Pakistan will be your end.

Kurds and Balochs are both Iranic this is why they are used by Iran to break up Turkiye, Syria, Iraq and Pakistan. Persians, Balochs and Kurds are from the same race hence why the Persians use them as proxies.

Iranians where ever they are cause problems in a country. In the Karabag war of the early 90s an Iranic ethnic group supported by Iran rebelled against Azerbaijan.

 

[Kaptaan]

Honestly Pakistan needs be like Zia Ul haq and deal with the Balochs with a iron fisted approach.

Send a message to every terrorist and separatist that breaking up Pakistan will be your end.

Kurds and Balochs are both Iranic this is why they are used by Iran to break up Turkiye, Syria, Iraq and Pakistan. Persians, Balochs and Kurds are from the same race hence why the Persians use them as proxies.

Iranians where ever they are cause problems in a country. In the Karabag war of the early 90s an Iranic ethnic group supported by Iran rebelled against Azerbaijan.

I would not go as far as blaming it on the Iranic group - that is a very diverse peoples and good % of Pakistan is of that extraction including myself. In Pakistan Baloch, Pakhtuns, Wakhi etc are all Iranic including our PM. Even the Punjabi's and Sindhi who make the other half are what you might call partial Iranic being as they are the Indo Aryans. But for sure a minority of Baloch are giving lot of grief helped by outside powers and the hostile terrain.

 

[Huelague]

Take this in minds brothers and never forget.

 

[Ryder]

I would not go as far as blaming it on the Iranic group - that is a very diverse peoples and good % of Pakistan is of that extraction including myself. In Pakistan Baloch, Pakhtuns, Wakhi etc are all Iranic including our PM. Even the Punjabi's and Sindhi who make the other half are what you might call partial Iranic being as they are the Indo Aryans. But for sure a minority of Baloch are giving lot of grief helped by outside powers and the hostile terrain.

View attachment 15814

Iranic peoples will cry racism when they are the biggest racist themselves.

Persians always believe they are above everybody.

 

[Parry Brima]

View attachment 15807


WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.

The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021


Mmmm wonder who was behind this blocking action? Just so as readers know Pakistan has serious issues with terrorist scumbags operating on the Af-Pak border and the vast Balochistan province. The geography of this region is actually the easternmost extention of the Anatolian highlands similiar to the areas in Turkey where PKK terrorists operate. The region is semi-arid, mountain/plateau at averaging 4-5000 feet with very low population density. Hot in summer and freezing in winter with very heavy snowfall.

One of the most vital project to Pakistan's future is laying down transport infra along what is known as the western corridor [marked in green line below] which will link with the new Gwadar port on the Arabian Sea. However not naming names do not want this project to succeed and are fininancing terrorists to drive away investors. Every weak a police or military patrol will be ambushed. This is easy as the vast region is mountainous and every bend or hill is ideal ambush location. Five minutes of ambush and the bad guys just run into the hills.

View attachment 15811
The only effective way to counter this is provide close air support that can be quickly be moved to the area to carry air recon and then provide fire support. The problem is high altitude, extreme weather takes toll on helicopters. The present fleet of Cobra helicopters are old and heavy use has made most of them out of service at any given time.

This is where these Atak T-129s come in. A fleet of them would have helped to scour the mountains and eliminate the terrorists. Clearly USA has no beef in this so you make your conclusions why USA blocked these - particularly as Pakistan will now be forced to buy Chinese helicopters which were tested and failed to meet the requirement in the tough conditions of Balochistan. Pakistan might well end up with a inferior product and lose more men on the mountain roads.

Ambush territory


View attachment 15808

View attachment 15809


View attachment 15810

@mulj @T-123456

Why not go for South African Denel Rooivalk attack helicopter? It's using French engine. Also French cannon, MBDA's AAM, and South African own ATGM ZT-6 Mokopa.

The service ceiling is the same with ATAK T-129 (20k feet). Speed and range is probably similar as well.

 

[Ryder]

Why not go for South African Denel Rooivalk attack helicopter? It's using French engine. Also French cannon, MBDA's AAM, and South African own ATGM ZT-6 Mokopa.

The service ceiling is the same with ATAK T-129 (20k feet). Speed and range is probably similar as well.

Rooivalk got screwed over by Airbus. Rooivalk cant even get exports thanks to Eurocopter because it uses a French engine. Most likely the French will veto it as France and Pakistan relations are not really that good.

 

[Parry Brima]

Rooivalk got screwed over by Airbus. Rooivalk cant even get exports thanks to Eurocopter because it uses a French engine. Most likely the French will veto it as France and Pakistan relations are not really that good.

I see. Have no idea that the relation between France and Pakistan is not really good.

Well, I guess the only option left is buying second hand units then (apart from China's option). I heard a rumour several weeks ago that Indonesia might want to sell its MI-35 helicopters. Not that many, maybe only 7-8 units total.

Indonesian Army have also successfully tested their MI-35 to launch FFAR rockets (produced by Indonesian SOE PT DI). So the rockets supply will not be totally dependent on Russia.

 

[Philip the Arab]

What about a conversion of MI-17 or something?


No?

 

[Ryder]

Not just to hit Turkey and its defence industry it is also to undercut competition.

Usa is doing this so it can sell its own stuff. Usa and the philippines have good relations and the usa still refuses to give the export licence for the Turkish T129 for the Philippines. Usa is offering them Apaches or the AH1Z

 

[Saithan]

Not just to hit Turkey and its defence industry it is also to undercut competition.

Usa is doing this so it can sell its own stuff. Usa and the philippines have good relations and the usa still refuses to give the export licence for the Turkish T129 for the Philippines. Usa is offering them Apaches or the AH1Z

Wrong. US and PH don’t have good relations. PH is in worse condition due to horrible economy and lots of internal issues. PH is doing lots of internal cleanup of corruption, but the west doesn’t like that. The leeches don’t like that.

Still Turkey can give more hardware etc. for less money, but the leeches don’t like that. So israel is getting some contracts due to unrestricted export and such.