Indonesia Casual Discussion Warkop Indonesia

[Lordimperator]

Operation Myanmar fredom jad gak neh?

Dah mau pemilu, g sempet

 

[this is crunch]

aku masi penasaran ama rombongan kapal yang head to head tu, ada update kah?

 

[satria]

aku masi penasaran ama rombongan kapal yang head to head tu, ada update kah?

update terakhir hanya kapal pengawas Vietnam yang nerobos jalur rombongan kapal China ... yang lain kayanya menuju negara masing2 ...

 

[this is crunch]

View attachment 57202

update terakhir hanya kapal pengawas Vietnam yang nerobos jalur rombongan kapal China ... yang lain kayanya menuju negara masing2 ...

oalah dah bubar drama nya, kirain bakalan seru saling ramming sana sini, masuk berita pake tagline "Ensuring Free And Open Water (away from the dragon's claim) " hahaha, btw itu Kiem Ngu keren juga langsung motong jalur rombongan liar.

 

[Madokafc]

Frigate versus kapal "nelayan" ya berani donk

 

[RadenSudirman]

Does our gov even care about building sphere of influence?

If I am gov, I will certainty do, there's a lot of time to prepare the concept first.

 

[R4duga]

View attachment 57202

update terakhir hanya kapal pengawas Vietnam yang nerobos jalur rombongan kapal China ... yang lain kayanya menuju negara masing2 ...

the indian, indonesian, and philippines warship goes silent with their AIS off, so no one knows if they follow the thai and vietnam formation....

 

[Madokafc]

Hmm Litbang Angkatan Udara gak nyoba lagi riset bikin bom incendiary kek napalm? stoknya udah kosong soalnya.

Napalm memang cocok sebagai shock terapi untuk anak anak yang bandel, apalagi dijatuhkan di hutan hutan yang dianggap zona merah...

Pas Seroja, Napalm dianggap efektif untuk mencegah konsentrasi unit lawan, distraksi dan menghancurkan moral lawan.

 

[Madokafc]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/aus...alm-plans-in-timor-leste-20150508-ggwxod.html

Australia knew about Indonesia's napalm plans in Timor Leste​

By Philip Dorling​

Updated May 9, 2015 — 2.21amfirst published May 8, 2015 — 10.18am

• 
  
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The Australian and United States governments knew Indonesia was prepared to use napalm against the people of Timor Leste but made no protest, according to secret documents unearthed by an Australian researcher.
Associate Professor Clinton Fernandes from the Australian Defence Force Academy has found previously classified Australian diplomatic papers that call into question repeated Indonesian denials that incendiary weapons were used in Timor Leste during Jakarta's 24-year occupation of the former Portuguese colony.
Associate Professor Clinton Fernandes has found documents which say the Australian government know Indonesia planned to use napalm.
The discovery is a breakthrough in Dr Fernandes' long running research to establish the extent of the Australian Government's knowledge of Indonesian war crimes in East Timor.
One of the documents found by Dr Fernandes at the National Archives of Australia is a September 1983 letter from the Australian consul in Bali, Malcolm Mann, to Dennis Richardson, then counsellor in the Australian Embassy in Jakarta, to report a conversation with the United States consul in Surabaya, Jay McNaughton.
One of the previously classified letters unearthed by Dr Fernandes. SUPPLIED
The American had told Mr Mann that he had "seen intelligence reports that the Indonesians were fitting napalm tanks to their F5 aircraft for use in Indonesia".
lier. Mr McNaughton explained that "American experts had been asked to help with the fitting of the napalm tanks as the Indonesians were having difficulty in trimming the aircraft".

Mr Richardson asked the US Embassy in Jakarta to confirm the Indonesians had approached the United States for assistance in fitting napalm tanks and was told that US contractors had been engaged "because the napalm tanks were made in Italy and modifications were needed in order to fit them to F5s".

In early November 1983 Richardson forwarded a report to the Department of Foreign Affairs in Canberra in which he added that "the United States assumed that, given the recent military build-up in East Timor, the approach had been made in connection with East Timor".

Another previously classified document. SUPPLIED
Following international outcries generated by the use of napalm in the Vietnam War, use of the incendiary weapon against civilians was effectively banned by a 1980 United Nations convention that prohibits conventional weapons which are "excessively injurious" or have "indiscriminate effects".

However Indonesia did not and has not signed the convention.

The Department of Foreign Affairs files examined by Dr Fernandes show the Australian Embassy in Jakarta took no action to protest against Indonesia's use of napalm and there was no reaction in Canberra, where then prime minister Bob Hawke's Labor Government was eager to improve relations with Indonesia and open negotiations with Jakarta on the oil and gas resources of the Timor Sea.

In 2006, following the publication of allegations of Indonesian napalm use against Timorese civilians in the report of Timor's United Nations-sponsored Truth and Reconciliation Commission, then Indonesian defence minister Juwono Sudarsono declared that such attacks "never happened".

"How could we have used napalm against the East Timorese? Back then we didn't even have the capacity to import, let alone make napalm," Mr Sudarsono.

One witness quoted by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Lucas da Costa Xavier, recalled: "The trees and grass would burn when the bombs hit them … Many civilians died from drinking the water contaminated with shrapnel from bombs dropped from the planes, and many died of burns – it was the dry season, so the grass burned easily."

cause they are the first hard evidence of napalm from the official records, and not just the testimony of survivors."

"The documents show that the East Timorese and the small group of international activists who supported them were telling the truth," Dr Fernandes said

"The Labor government that came to office in 1983 knew that the Indonesian military were committing crimes against humanity, including burning people alive with napalm, but they said and did nothing."

Dr Fernandes has been engaged in a protracted legal battle in the Administrative Appeals Tribunal and the Federal Court to secure the declassification of Australian intelligence and diplomatic records relating to Indonesia's occupation of East Timor.

The Australian government claims declassification of the papers would reveal still sensitive intelligence and damage Australia's relations with Indonesia. Much of the government's evidence has been suppressed following the issue of a "public interest certificate" by Attorney-General George Brandis.


"The current government should declassify all relevant records so that the full truth can come out," Dr Fernandes said.

 

[Madokafc]

Indonesian at least ordered Napalm bombs from Italia and Swiss, the finding showing Indonesia Made repeated order from Swiss company

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politi...-developed-a-lethal-incendiary-agent/48185440


History
Napalm from the Alps: How the Swiss developed a lethal incendiary agent
Das Schweizer Militär experimentiert mit der Schweizer Napalm-Variante Opalm
Experimenting with Opalm, the Swiss-developed napalm Bundesarchiv
For years the napalm variant Opalm was delivered to warring countries around the world. The deadly incendiary weapon was long thought to be a Soviet product, but now we know it was developed in Switzerland.

This content was published on January 28, 2023
January 28, 2023
7 minutes
Regula Bochsler
Other languages: 5
At the end of the 1970s the Indonesian Air Force made a propaganda film which showed soldiers attaching bombs to the wings of an American OV-10F Bronco fighter jet. The bombs bore the logo “BOM-OPALM” and were intended to be dropped on East Timor, which had been fighting for independence since 1975.

The incendiary agent Opalm was considered the Soviet version of the American napalm, but recently discovered documents show that it was actually a Swiss product. It was developed in Domat/Ems in eastern Switzerland, tested by the Swiss Air Force and produced in Germany on behalf of a Swiss company.

Filmstill eines indonesischen Propagandafilmes (1977)
A still taken from an Indonesian propaganda film in 1977. Swiss Opalm was used by Indonesia against the people of East Timor. Youtube
The story begins in the early 1950s when the US Air Force dropped 32,000 tonnes of napalm on the Korean peninsula. Military experts were excited because napalm could cause a lot of destruction for little money. The Swiss press reported how “a napalm bomb covers almost 2,000 square metres with its scorching flames and destroys every living being within range”.

The Swiss army also wanted to get its hands on the new weapon. It was spoilt for choice: in 1950 a US company sent a napalm sample to Switzerland, while a little later the French offered “Octogel” and the Dutch “Metavon”. In 1952 another deadly agent surfaced: the Swiss company Holzverzuckerungs AG (HOVAG) was offering an “improved napalm” called Opalm.

Opalm was the brainchild of Werner Oswald, the founder of HOVAG. He had run a government-subsidised plant producing substitute fuel in Domat/Ems since 1941. But when petrol imports resumed after the end of the Second World War, his fuel was no longer in demand. He needed new business ideas, and napalm, a mixture of gasoline and thickening agents, was one of them.

Oswald developed Opalm and patented it. When he offered to sell it to the Swiss army, he argued that in the event of war HOVAG could guarantee production independent of foreign countries. Although the government, which was in charge of the purchase, was convinced that Opalm was “at least as good as” foreign products, it decided against buying it as it was four times as expensive as napalm from the US.

Circumventing the law
This did not faze Oswald as he had already found another customer abroad. The government of Burma, a country plagued by internal conflicts since its independence in 1948, ordered Opalm for thousands of bombs including shells and detonators which were to be produced by HOVAG’s Swiss partner companies. When the Swiss government in 1954 refused to issue an export licence, Oswald simply moved production to Germany.

Opalmgranulat wird in Fässer abgefüllt (1952)
Filling up drums with Opalm granulate (1952) Bundesarchiv
In the mid-Fifties there was no law in Germany regulating the export of incendiary agents, so the production plant was dismantled in Domat/Ems and rebuilt in the German city of Karlsruhe. The Swiss chemist who had developed Opalm travelled specifically to Karlsruhe to show Oswald’s new business partner, the German arms dealer Walter Heck, how to make the “secret recipe”.

It was a classic workaround: sales were conducted in Switzerland, while the incendiary agent was produced in Germany from where it was delivered to buyers. Even though it wasn’t in line with the spirit of the Swiss arms law, such a procedure was made legal in 1951 provided the finished weapons never touched Swiss soil.

At the same time, Oswald transferred all business dealings with Opalm to PATVAG, a company he owned with his brothers. This meant the profits didn’t end up with government-subsidised HOVAG, which had financed the development of Opalm, but went straight into the pockets of the Oswald family.

Having recently rejected the export of Opalm, the Swiss government now approved the delivery to Burma of thousands of bombshells produced in Basel. As for the detonators, PATVAG director Erwin Widmer did what many arms dealers were doing: he declared them to be “plastic containers” when he wanted to send them to Pakistan, where one of his employees was preparing an Opalm presentation for the army.

The scam was uncovered by a suspicious Swiss customs official, but Widmer used his good connections to the government and applied for a second – correct – export licence, which he was immediately granted. However, when an outraged HOVAG employee told a newspaper editor about the “plastic containers” and false declarations, the authorities kept quiet and referred to professional secrecy. The PATVAG director received only a tiny fine for the falsely declared detonators.

While the scientists in Domat/Ems continued to improve Opalm and find additives that would make the burning effect even more devastating, HOVAG was looking for new customers. In the summer of 1955 the company sent samples to NATO and several European and Arab countries. Jordan, Syria and Egypt purchased an undisclosed amount of Opalm. The Egyptian Air Force used it to bomb defenceless civilians during the Yemeni Civil War between 1962 and 1967. Police files and letters connected to PATVAG even indicate that the company had sold a licence to the Egyptian army and was involved in the construction of an Opalm production plant near Cairo.

More
Anti-Semitism in Switzerland
Anti-Semitic prejudices tend to rise to the surface during crises. Switzerland has a history of this kind of discrimination.

The Algerian National Liberation Front (FLN) was another customer. PATVAG’S German business partner Walter Heck supplied it with Opalm and flamethrowers which he declared to be “pest control devices”. In 1961 Heck was shot dead in the street, as were several German and Swiss arms dealers before and after him who had supplied the FLN. The French secret service was almost certainly behind the assassinations, as they were doing everything they could to prevent the insurgents of Algeria, which was a French colony, from obtaining arms.

Opalm in Indonesia
In the case of Indonesia, HOVAG again applied for a Swiss export licence in 1957 – and the Swiss government again refused to issue it. This is why the orders were probably processed through Germany, but there is no evidence for this. What is on record is the fact that in 1960 an Indonesian delegation visited the production plant in Karlsruhe and ordered 15 tonnes of Opalm including bombshells.

This was not the last order. A letter from PATVAG confirms that the company made “repeated” deliveries to Indonesia. There is proof that Indonesia ordered enough material for around 3,500 bombs, but it is not known what these deliveries were used for.

The Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor (CAVR), which documented war atrocities during the 24 years of Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor, discovered not only the propaganda film mentioned at the beginning of this article but also a document in which the Indonesian Army listed the characteristics of Opalm: “Burns targets with a heat of +/– 1,725°C for 15 minutes in a radius of 600m” was one of them. An eyewitness reported: “The bombs simply incinerated people and turned them to ash.”

When CAVR published its final report in 2006, the Indonesian defence minister denied napalm had been used in East Timor. “Back then we didn’t have the capacity to import napalm, let alone produce it,” he said.

However, documents found in German and Swiss archives about the Opalm dealings with Indonesia contradict this claim. Either way, it is a fact that Indonesia has still not signed the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the use of Incendiary Weapons which came into force in 1983.

Regula Bochsler: ‘Nylon and Napalm. The story of the Emser Werke and its founder Werner Oswald’. Published by Hier & Jetzt, 2022External link.

 

[this is crunch]

Hmm Litbang Angkatan Udara gak nyoba lagi riset bikin bom incendiary kek napalm? stoknya udah kosong soalnya.

Napalm memang cocok sebagai shock terapi untuk anak anak yang bandel, apalagi dijatuhkan di hutan hutan yang dianggap zona merah...

Pas Seroja, Napalm dianggap efektif untuk mencegah konsentrasi unit lawan, distraksi dan menghancurkan moral lawan.

Indonesian at least ordered Napalm bombs from Italia and Swiss, the finding showing Indonesia Made repeated order from Swiss company

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politi...-developed-a-lethal-incendiary-agent/48185440


History
Napalm from the Alps: How the Swiss developed a lethal incendiary agent
Das Schweizer Militär experimentiert mit der Schweizer Napalm-Variante Opalm
Experimenting with Opalm, the Swiss-developed napalm Bundesarchiv
For years the napalm variant Opalm was delivered to warring countries around the world. The deadly incendiary weapon was long thought to be a Soviet product, but now we know it was developed in Switzerland.

This content was published on January 28, 2023
January 28, 2023
7 minutes
Regula Bochsler
Other languages: 5
At the end of the 1970s the Indonesian Air Force made a propaganda film which showed soldiers attaching bombs to the wings of an American OV-10F Bronco fighter jet. The bombs bore the logo “BOM-OPALM” and were intended to be dropped on East Timor, which had been fighting for independence since 1975.

The incendiary agent Opalm was considered the Soviet version of the American napalm, but recently discovered documents show that it was actually a Swiss product. It was developed in Domat/Ems in eastern Switzerland, tested by the Swiss Air Force and produced in Germany on behalf of a Swiss company.

Filmstill eines indonesischen Propagandafilmes (1977)
A still taken from an Indonesian propaganda film in 1977. Swiss Opalm was used by Indonesia against the people of East Timor. Youtube
The story begins in the early 1950s when the US Air Force dropped 32,000 tonnes of napalm on the Korean peninsula. Military experts were excited because napalm could cause a lot of destruction for little money. The Swiss press reported how “a napalm bomb covers almost 2,000 square metres with its scorching flames and destroys every living being within range”.

The Swiss army also wanted to get its hands on the new weapon. It was spoilt for choice: in 1950 a US company sent a napalm sample to Switzerland, while a little later the French offered “Octogel” and the Dutch “Metavon”. In 1952 another deadly agent surfaced: the Swiss company Holzverzuckerungs AG (HOVAG) was offering an “improved napalm” called Opalm.

Opalm was the brainchild of Werner Oswald, the founder of HOVAG. He had run a government-subsidised plant producing substitute fuel in Domat/Ems since 1941. But when petrol imports resumed after the end of the Second World War, his fuel was no longer in demand. He needed new business ideas, and napalm, a mixture of gasoline and thickening agents, was one of them.

Oswald developed Opalm and patented it. When he offered to sell it to the Swiss army, he argued that in the event of war HOVAG could guarantee production independent of foreign countries. Although the government, which was in charge of the purchase, was convinced that Opalm was “at least as good as” foreign products, it decided against buying it as it was four times as expensive as napalm from the US.

Circumventing the law
This did not faze Oswald as he had already found another customer abroad. The government of Burma, a country plagued by internal conflicts since its independence in 1948, ordered Opalm for thousands of bombs including shells and detonators which were to be produced by HOVAG’s Swiss partner companies. When the Swiss government in 1954 refused to issue an export licence, Oswald simply moved production to Germany.

Opalmgranulat wird in Fässer abgefüllt (1952)
Filling up drums with Opalm granulate (1952) Bundesarchiv
In the mid-Fifties there was no law in Germany regulating the export of incendiary agents, so the production plant was dismantled in Domat/Ems and rebuilt in the German city of Karlsruhe. The Swiss chemist who had developed Opalm travelled specifically to Karlsruhe to show Oswald’s new business partner, the German arms dealer Walter Heck, how to make the “secret recipe”.

It was a classic workaround: sales were conducted in Switzerland, while the incendiary agent was produced in Germany from where it was delivered to buyers. Even though it wasn’t in line with the spirit of the Swiss arms law, such a procedure was made legal in 1951 provided the finished weapons never touched Swiss soil.

At the same time, Oswald transferred all business dealings with Opalm to PATVAG, a company he owned with his brothers. This meant the profits didn’t end up with government-subsidised HOVAG, which had financed the development of Opalm, but went straight into the pockets of the Oswald family.

Having recently rejected the export of Opalm, the Swiss government now approved the delivery to Burma of thousands of bombshells produced in Basel. As for the detonators, PATVAG director Erwin Widmer did what many arms dealers were doing: he declared them to be “plastic containers” when he wanted to send them to Pakistan, where one of his employees was preparing an Opalm presentation for the army.

The scam was uncovered by a suspicious Swiss customs official, but Widmer used his good connections to the government and applied for a second – correct – export licence, which he was immediately granted. However, when an outraged HOVAG employee told a newspaper editor about the “plastic containers” and false declarations, the authorities kept quiet and referred to professional secrecy. The PATVAG director received only a tiny fine for the falsely declared detonators.

While the scientists in Domat/Ems continued to improve Opalm and find additives that would make the burning effect even more devastating, HOVAG was looking for new customers. In the summer of 1955 the company sent samples to NATO and several European and Arab countries. Jordan, Syria and Egypt purchased an undisclosed amount of Opalm. The Egyptian Air Force used it to bomb defenceless civilians during the Yemeni Civil War between 1962 and 1967. Police files and letters connected to PATVAG even indicate that the company had sold a licence to the Egyptian army and was involved in the construction of an Opalm production plant near Cairo.

More
Anti-Semitism in Switzerland
Anti-Semitic prejudices tend to rise to the surface during crises. Switzerland has a history of this kind of discrimination.

The Algerian National Liberation Front (FLN) was another customer. PATVAG’S German business partner Walter Heck supplied it with Opalm and flamethrowers which he declared to be “pest control devices”. In 1961 Heck was shot dead in the street, as were several German and Swiss arms dealers before and after him who had supplied the FLN. The French secret service was almost certainly behind the assassinations, as they were doing everything they could to prevent the insurgents of Algeria, which was a French colony, from obtaining arms.

Opalm in Indonesia
In the case of Indonesia, HOVAG again applied for a Swiss export licence in 1957 – and the Swiss government again refused to issue it. This is why the orders were probably processed through Germany, but there is no evidence for this. What is on record is the fact that in 1960 an Indonesian delegation visited the production plant in Karlsruhe and ordered 15 tonnes of Opalm including bombshells.

This was not the last order. A letter from PATVAG confirms that the company made “repeated” deliveries to Indonesia. There is proof that Indonesia ordered enough material for around 3,500 bombs, but it is not known what these deliveries were used for.

The Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor (CAVR), which documented war atrocities during the 24 years of Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor, discovered not only the propaganda film mentioned at the beginning of this article but also a document in which the Indonesian Army listed the characteristics of Opalm: “Burns targets with a heat of +/– 1,725°C for 15 minutes in a radius of 600m” was one of them. An eyewitness reported: “The bombs simply incinerated people and turned them to ash.”

When CAVR published its final report in 2006, the Indonesian defence minister denied napalm had been used in East Timor. “Back then we didn’t have the capacity to import napalm, let alone produce it,” he said.

However, documents found in German and Swiss archives about the Opalm dealings with Indonesia contradict this claim. Either way, it is a fact that Indonesia has still not signed the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the use of Incendiary Weapons which came into force in 1983.

Regula Bochsler: ‘Nylon and Napalm. The story of the Emser Werke and its founder Werner Oswald’. Published by Hier & Jetzt, 2022External link.

hmmmm not quite sure with your intention, you are suggesting about it but yet you also showed how bad public opinion on it.

Anyway, about using Napalm on our own region, im afraid that it would cause larger environmental effect rather than moral and human casualties, the wildfire it create might not be controlled and become catasthropic in the end. So, for near future, i still oppose the use of this kind weapon on our soil.

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655691915294289920

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655871041892388864

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655938497361096708

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655938497361096708

That's supposed to be Rafale but you know...
Sometimes banner creators just "comot" Google pics

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655956438815244289

 

[Zinan 二]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655956438815244289

untung ni frigate kalah sama Fremm, kalo menang trus ga dibayar2 buat activate kontrak bisa rame di twitter kayak kasus kereta cepat, apalagi formiler sama ytuber jepang pedes2 coy ngehina indo. apalagi kalo yg dapet pendanaan destro cina.

 

[Madokafc]

untung ni frigate kalah sama Fremm, kalo menang trus ga dibayar2 buat activate kontrak bisa rame di twitter kayak kasus kereta cepat, apalagi formiler sama ytuber jepang pedes2 coy ngehina indo. apalagi kalo yg dapet pendanaan destro cina.

Beda proyek kok

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655998472313528321

 

[NEKO]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655938497361096708

Satu lagi alutsita rahasia TNI terbongkar?