Analysis Wasting resources in the Turkish defense industry

KKF 2.0

Well-known member
Messages
354
Reactions
825
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey


I don't appreciate this. In fact, it's quite a typical Turkish pattern among our defense companies to cover as much defense-related fields as possible. This is wrong and actually quite harmful if you take a more wider and systematic approach in evaluating our defense sector.

Simply put, this is a waste of money, resources, time and energy.

And even though SSB has made a leap forward in reorganizing, integrating and coordinating the Turkish defense sector to create more synergy, one can tell that SSB needs to intervene even more heavily.

Some companies need to be banned from commencing certain programs.

It is sad that people - even in the West - don't quite understand how much money we could save and how efficient we could become if only the state actors would start taking a more holistic approach. This topic is very abstract and thus people tend to not understand the full potential here and the said companies will most definitely lobby against any change that they consider as reducing their radius of action.


But we need this, a country like Turkey doesn't need 5, 6, 7 or more 'allrounders' in a limited sector which the Turkish defense industry will always be (same goes for the US, China, Russia, EU etc).

We urgently need more work sharing, division of responsibilities and differentiation - not less. Millions of Dollars are spent without a real, innovative and practical outcome for the country and military.

I feel like every second company is producing drones now. This needs to be addressed. Why hire engineers to work on same or similar projects aross a bunch of companies with limited resources if joining forces makes much more sense and is much more effective in every way possible? Competition is good and it's needed but the SSB has to step up and manage this in a meaningful way.
 
A

adenl

Guest
Indeed, instead of dabbing in each others area of expertise, they should focus on their own and let the SSB coordinate. Havelsan should stick to software and IT and leave the 'hardware' to others.
 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,178
Solutions
2
Reactions
97 23,089
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I feel like every second company is producing drones now. This needs to be addressed. Why hire engineers to work on same or similar projects aross a bunch of companies with limited resources if joining forces makes much more sense and is much more effective in every way possible? Competition is good and it's needed but the SSB has to step up and manage this in a meaningful way.
I agree on this part, if a company is going to develop something and requesting R&D fund from Tubitak or SSB, they should be evaluated on basis of developing a unique or critical technology/platform, or it should be something innovative and out of the box, compared to what is available in the market already.
Indeed, instead of dabbing in each others area of expertise, they should focus on their own and let the SSB coordinate. Havelsan should stick to software and IT and leave the 'hardware' to others.
They already had some hardware section because of the simulators, probably UAV technology has fruited from those control tech, they are already expert in software so the remaining of the job was to bring it together with some simple avionics (for the size of drone).
Most of drones developed recently remains in the safe limits, Havelsan has just joined it: not small or big enough to push limits of engineering or materials.
They may have needed a drone to test their AI algorithms as well (they may not intend to share it with a 3rd party), and preferred to have their own with existing resources.

The same should be told for STM, which is SSB's company. They have been into drone business out of nowhere.
 
Last edited:

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,784
Reactions
18 19,918
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
I was thinking about this today too. Competition helps products thrive if you have a lot of money, time and engineers. We are not Unites states. Frankly, I don't want TAI to develop UAV anymore. Two different companies should not spend their money and time on this work. TAI should direct its resources to helicopter, aircraft projects. Because he will need these too much. For example, Tumosan spent money on Pusat armored vehicle. Where's Pusat? they could spent their money and time more towards engine projects..
 

Reviewbrah

Contributor
Messages
536
Reactions
2,351
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
For example, we had a unnecessary tender for tactical drone project between Baykar and Vestel which further delayed the project

Also to mention, before TB2 won the tactical drone tender and entered service, it was almost forced to comply with unnecessary standard requirements like NATO UAV standard that no UAV had at the time. Also Baykar even had financial difficulties because it wasnt funded properly (Later signed partnership with Kale Group).
 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,178
Solutions
2
Reactions
97 23,089
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Frankly, I don't want TAI to develop UAV anymore
TAI was there before than anybody,
Drone business has more money-profit, less development costs, serially produced in greater numbers compared to aircrafts, helicopters which is to be delivered by 2023-2030, thus everyone wants a portion of it, so does TAI.
Not to mention, none of these companies invested in engines or collaborated in E/Os as TAI did, they went for simple way -exports and foreign partners.
 

what

Experienced member
Moderator
Messages
2,046
Reactions
9 6,058
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
I agree and I hope that we see some mergers in the future Baykar + Vestel for example, all the armored vehicle manufacturers. Not that I want all of them to merge, but they are competing for the same products, even countries such as Germany or France dont have multiple companies in those fields.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,157
Reactions
21 18,765
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
I actually think Vestel should stay as is. Baykar and TAI as well, I think it is defence companies like BMC and the spiderweb like expansion into stupidity that needs to be restricted. And too many Motor developers...

I think Tümosan who made the 530 hp for FNSS should continue, possibly absorb some of the others if necessary. Or maybe TEI should.

However if they can make money and employ ppl then I don't mind it, as long as it's not purely sponsored by our tax money.


Interesting short video on prof. Ismail Demir (SSB) and other people placed as the head of different def firms.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,157
Reactions
21 18,765
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey

REPUBLIC OF TURKEY
HEAD OF DEFENSE INDUSTRY
PROF. DR. İSMAİL IRON N BACKGROUND​

İsmail Demir was born in 1960 in Elazığ. He completed his primary education in Ankara and Eskişehir; He completed his secondary and high school education in Eskişehir. He graduated from Istanbul Technical University (ITU) Aeronautical Engineering Department in 1982. After working as a research assistant at Uludağ University and ITU for one year, he went to the USA in 1985 with a scholarship from the Ministry of National Education for his master's and doctoral studies.

He received his master's degree in applied mechanics from the University of Michigan and in aerospace and aviation from Purdue University. In 1989, he started to work on solid body mechanics, fracture mechanics and materials as part of his doctorate education. He also worked as a research assistant on various subjects in this department, where he received the best graduate researcher award. He also took part in research conducted within research institutions such as Livermore and Pacific Northwest Laboratories. He graduated from Washington State University Mechanical Engineering Department with a doctorate in 1992.

In May 1992; He worked on semiconductor single crystal growth as a post-doctoral researcher in British Columbia and Victoria universities in Canada. In 1993, he started to work as an assistant professor in the Mechanical Engineering Department of King Saud University, Saudi Arabia.

In 1997, he received the title of associate professor in aircraft elements and materials from ITU Faculty of Aeronautics and Astronautics. During this period, he went to the USA to participate in various research projects for short periods and conducted research on materials, numerical modeling, micro and mesomechanics and nanotechnology as a part-time researcher in Livermore, Northwest Pacific National Laboratories, Washington State University Materials Research Center and mechanical engineering departments.

In 2002, he started to work as a researcher at the Center for Materials Research at Washington State University, took part in DARPA projects and conducted research on micro electromechanical systems.

In late 2003, he returned to Turkey on the invitation of Turkish Airlines began his career as head of training within the Corporation. In April 2005, he was appointed as the deputy general manager responsible for technology at THY. During his tenure, he actively participated in the processes of establishing sub-companies according to THY's areas of expertise and the privatization of the majority of its shares by public offering.

In May 2006, when he was the head of THY Aircraft Maintenance and Repair Unit, he separated this unit from THY and restructured it as a company with a separate legal entity and became the first general manager of THY Teknik AŞ. While carrying out this duty, he not only created the Turkish Technic brand, but also made THY Teknik a worldwide aircraft maintenance and repair company serving companies other than THY. As a result of these efforts, THY Teknik was able to rank among the top 10 aircraft maintenance and repair companies (MRO) in a short time and eventually succeeded in being chosen as the best aircraft maintenance and repair company in Europe.

During his duty as THY Teknik's general manager and vice chairman until 2014; Aircraft engine maintenance and repair company named Turkish Engine Center with a capital of 150 million USD with the American company Pratt & Whitney Motor, the American company Goodrich AeroStructures and the Goodrich Turkish Technic Service Center (GTTSC) for the maintenance of the aircraft engine hood and reverse reaction units, Zorlu Enerji and the aircraft named TURKBINE engineers and gas turbines maintenance and repair company, TUSAŞ and aircraft cabin interior equipment manufacturing company (Turkish Cabin Interior TCI), Kibar Holding and aircraft seat manufacturing company (Turkish Seat Industries-TSI) served as.

During his tenure at Turkish Airlines Company, land from SSM with the ideal of establishing a world-class maintenance and repair center in order to provide added value to the area around Sabiha Gökçen Airport in the 80s, which the late Turgut Özal named the Advanced Technology Park (ITEP) area The HABOM project, which started with negotiations on allocation and leasing, was the first project to be successfully completed despite various handicaps, construction and ground problems. a more than $ 300 million in construction and established by an equipment cost more than $ 100 million 370 thousand square meters of indoor space with aviation maintenance and repair center, architecture, and in Turkey in terms of construction techniques and the first could be called in Europe the practice is where implemented.

In the same period, he made moves such as building a hangar at Ankara Esenboğa Airport and incorporating two huge new hangars at Atatürk Airport, which a private company had difficulty in operating, to THY Teknik. In addition, technician training programs enabled THY Teknik to take place in the world MRO market as a brand in terms of capability and capacity. THY Teknik, which started its operations as a unit of THY with an annual turnover of US $ 200 million, 10% third party customers and 2500 people, in 2005 when he started his duty; He left it as a company with a turnover of US $ 850 million, 28% third party customers and 5,000 people.

He was appointed to the Undersecretariat of Defense Industry in April 2014. Defense Industry Undersecretary provided as the completion of several defense projects in Turkey and the initiation of new projects. Iron; Under the leadership of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, it carries out its procurement and modernization processes with the slogan "For Our Independence and Our Future" with new restructuring in order to realize the ideal of an uncompromising, domestic and national defense industry.

The Undersecretariat for Defense Industries was attached to the President with the arrangement made in 2017, and in July 2018 it was restructured as the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey. Dr. İsmail Demir continues his duty as the head of Defense Industry.

Demir, who has published numerous articles on composite materials, crack mechanics, theoretical and numerical elastic modeling, micro electromechanics in various international journals and conferences, is married and has four children.

 

Reviewbrah

Contributor
Messages
536
Reactions
2,351
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Regional industrial development has to improve for small-medium companies to minimize wasting resources. For example, many so called regional "universities" wouldn't pass as high schools. They should be shut down majority of the them and be replaced with city, community colleges, vocational schools. Money saved from so called "universities" should be used to fund actual proper universities that is strategically located. Proper universities can contribute billions of dollars to economy. They should at least establish regional R&D centers with capable resources that will work and help guiding small-medium businesses.

Organized industrial zones like Teknokents are very important for growing organized industry but many lack capable management.

It would be nice if we could get more Turkish entrepreneurs who went to good engineering schools and have US or EU work experience to help local companies have proper human capital and necessary management skills to compete internationally and earn better vision.
 

Reviewbrah

Contributor
Messages
536
Reactions
2,351
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I wonder how many small medium business owners read science, research publications.
Language barrier is a big issue as almost all of them is in English

If I was Turkish government and I would run a service to translate publications at a mass scale and provide them to small companies for free.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,157
Reactions
21 18,765
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
Regional industrial development has to improve for small-medium companies to minimize wasting resources. For example, many so called regional "universities" wouldn't pass as high schools. They should be shut down majority of the them and be replaced with city, community colleges, vocational schools. Money saved from so called "universities" should be used to fund actual proper universities that is strategically located. Proper universities can contribute billions of dollars to economy. They should at least establish regional R&D centers with capable resources that will work and help guiding small-medium businesses.

Organized industrial zones like Teknokents are very important for growing organized industry but many lack capable management.

It would be nice if we could get more Turkish entrepreneurs who went to good engineering schools and have US or EU work experience to help local companies have proper human capital and necessary management skills to compete internationally and earn better vision.
Even here in Denmark the universities can have "wings" in different parts of the country. e.g. branches withing Agriculture could be located in places where there is a lot of farming and such.

In Philippines, I've been on Bohol, and went all the way to Cogtong (opposit end of the island), in that rather small place with perhaps 2-3k people they had a university (BISU - Bohol Island State University)


Really a rural place, but even they have small branches for improving studying.

What I want to say is that education is good and important, and opportunities must be given, but we need to also have profession/study fields that supports people in the areas.

Students rent a room with 4-6 others (dormitory like) where they sleep and then go to school next day, no need to build giant apartment complex with luxury.
 
S

Sinan

Guest


I don't appreciate this. In fact, it's quite a typical Turkish pattern among our defense companies to cover as much defense-related fields as possible. This is wrong and actually quite harmful if you take a more wider and systematic approach in evaluating our defense sector.

Simply put, this is a waste of money, resources, time and energy.

And even though SSB has made a leap forward in reorganizing, integrating and coordinating the Turkish defense sector to create more synergy, one can tell that SSB needs to intervene even more heavily.

Some companies need to be banned from commencing certain programs.

It is sad that people - even in the West - don't quite understand how much money we could save and how efficient we could become if only the state actors would start taking a more holistic approach. This topic is very abstract and thus people tend to not understand the full potential here and the said companies will most definitely lobby against any change that they consider as reducing their radius of action.


But we need this, a country like Turkey doesn't need 5, 6, 7 or more 'allrounders' in a limited sector which the Turkish defense industry will always be (same goes for the US, China, Russia, EU etc).

We urgently need more work sharing, division of responsibilities and differentiation - not less. Millions of Dollars are spent without a real, innovative and practical outcome for the country and military.

I feel like every second company is producing drones now. This needs to be addressed. Why hire engineers to work on same or similar projects aross a bunch of companies with limited resources if joining forces makes much more sense and is much more effective in every way possible? Competition is good and it's needed but the SSB has to step up and manage this in a meaningful way.
I'm fundamentally not against companies producing similar products. This causes competition and perfection of these systems.

For example, BMC, FNSS, Otokar, Katmerciler, Nurol racing for wheeled tactical vehicles and they are excelling in their fields, exporting their products to various countries.

However these are private firms and doing R&D with their own money.

TAI, Havelsan, STM, Aselsan are governmental firms. These shouldn't race against each other, makes no sense.
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
4,516
Reactions
6 7,173
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Drone development is not all that resource consuming and the rewards are high. Plus, success is not guarantied. So we need more companies to make sure there is success. They will pivot to other branches of the field like flying cars and robotics where we still lag behind. Until we have a big success in every field we can't push the brakes.

We don't have any component makers in the field at all either.
 
Last edited:

KKF 2.0

Well-known member
Messages
354
Reactions
825
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I'm fundamentally not against companies producing similar products. This causes competition and perfection of these systems.

For example, BMC, FNSS, Otokar, Katmerciler, Nurol racing for wheeled tactical vehicles and they are excelling in their fields, exporting their products to various countries.

However these are private firms and doing R&D with their own money.

TAI, Havelsan, STM, Aselsan are governmental firms. These shouldn't race against each other, makes no sense.
The defense industry is one of the few sectors in any economy around the world where the ownership of companies is not a primary cause of debates because the main customer has been and always will be your own government. There's no country in this world that is capable of financing its defense sector solely with money earned from exporting weapons.

This means that there's no company in the defense sector which doesn't need assistance and guidance from the state. Looking closer at America, Europe or Eastern Asia, you will clearly see that the defense sector is always conacted to the state in order to fulfill its needs.

Export is a tiny little part of our defense sector and it will never be the main source of income. Our companies are producing the same stuff for one customer: TSK.

It's a waste of time, energy and money. The government should clearly state that it's not going to buy the same system from 5 different companies.

Having said that, I respectfully disagree with your statement about private businesses and their money. These companies are out there to generate income from tax payers money which most definitely entitles the government to dictate the rules of the game.

Yes, America is a capitalistic country but its defense sector is an exemption from this rule. It is more like a public-private-partnership with a totally different approach.

Ironically, America's defense sector is the one part of the US that is very similar to the Chinese counterpart.
 
S

Sinan

Guest
Having said that, I respectfully disagree with your statement about private businesses and their money. These companies are out there to generate income from tax payers money which most definitely entitles the government to dictate the rules of the game.
I didn't said otherwise.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,157
Reactions
21 18,765
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
I didn't said otherwise.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to secure supply chain of the components? You find out that 4-5 armoured vehicle companies need suspension so it would make sense to have jv firmnproduce these suspension and optimize the process and do further R&D ( as an example). Instead of having all of them develop suspensions and have manpower for that.
 

KKF 2.0

Well-known member
Messages
354
Reactions
825
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I didn't said otherwise.
(...) However these are private firms and doing R&D with their own money.

TAI, Havelsan, STM, Aselsan are governmental firms. These shouldn't race against each other, makes no sense.

If I understand you correctly, you're fine with (private) companies investing resources in any project as long as it's not on the government's expense.

But I bet you my bottom dollar that the main customer of all the mentioned companies is the Turkish state. The income from export is probably next to nothing in the overall picture. They're mainly using revenue generated from business with the government to fund these projects.

As I said before, privately-owned company or not, it simply doesn't matter here, SSB needs to do better in terms of worksharing and dedicating scope of duties for each company or JV.
 
T

Turko

Guest
Research and Development are too expensive , government should support some realms which private sector isn't interested investing in.
Also I assume some know-how comes from spies. Government can spy on some international technologies while private sector can't.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom