Ukraine Analysis Why Russia will lose this war

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,634
Reactions
37 19,745
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
very interesting and long read again, most informative i have read in a long time.

Why Russia will lose this war?

Much of the "realist" discourse is about accepting Putin's victory, cuz it's *guaranteed*. But how do we know it is?

I'll argue that analysts 1) overrate Russian army 2) underrate Ukrainian one 3) misunderstand Russian strategy & political goals🧵 Image
Consider a timely paper on Russian army by Bismarck Analysis. It's good & informative. It's correct on its land-based and artillery-centric character. It's also correct that Minister of Defence Serdyukov greatly increased army's efficiency in 2007-2012. But it's still misleading Image
Yes, Minister Serdyukov indeed reformed the army. He increased its efficiency, fought with corrupt and crony armament producers improving the army supplies. As a result he became extremely unpopular, made tons of powerful enemies and was ousted in 2012 losing his power and status Image
His successor Shoygu knew better than that. Now who's Shoygu? Shoygu is the *only* single Russian minister who uninterruptedly worked in government since 1991, since the very beginning of Russian Federation. He worked for all presidents, all prime ministers avoided all purges Image
What does it mean? It means he's a cunning political entrepreneur, great in court politics, publicity, image. You survive every single administration by maxing your political survival. And to max it you need to minimise animosity. So you never object to powerful interest groups Image
Serdyukov fought with interest groups and was destroyed. Shoygu was smarter than that. He launched a PR campaign presenting himself as the "saviour" from the Serdyukov's legacy. Whatever his predecessor did, was dismantled. Media cheered, people cheered, interest groups cheered Image
That's a very, very typical problem. Efficiency-maxing requires ruthlessness in dealing with established elites and interest groups. Meanwhile court-politics-maxing requires pondering to them and not making enemies. Serdyukov was maxing efficiency, Shoygu - court politics Image
There was another issue. Shoygu is ethnic Tuvan. In such a country as Russia minority member can hardly become the supreme leader. People don't perceive him as ethnic Russian (see his palace) which means he's not dangerous for the leader and you can safely delegate him the army Image
Shoygy not only purged Serdyukov's appointees, pondered to old military establishment, stopped arguing with army suppliers about the equipment cost and quality. He also pondered to numerous feel-good-lies regarding the Russian big strategy. Let's consider the army vs navy problem Image
Army vs navy had been a traditional dilemma of European powers for centuries. As a rule, you couldn't support both first class army and first class navy, you had to choose. Some powers ignored this to their demise - like 17-18th cc France. Others were more rational, like Prussia Image
We kinda forgot it but in the 17th c principality of Brandenburg centered in Berlin tried to play into a "global maritime power". They built a navy, established colonies in Caribbean and Africa (red). Super costly, super hubris, super stupid. Consumed tons of resources in vain Image
In 18th c. they reconsidered. They sold their colonies, dismantled the navy and started land-maxing. They correctly realised that if they suppress their hubris and minimise the navy (to zero), they can land-max and build the first class army. Which would then unify Germany Image
So. Land-maxing requires minimising the naval ambition. Does Russia minimise its naval ambition? No. It feels obliged to maintain as much Soviet naval legacy as possible. Keep old ships afloat, build new ones, maintain and expand infrastructure for the ocean navy Image
Here is another dilemma. Regional fleets can be effectively used in land wars. For example, Russia declared "navy manoeuvres" and then attacked Ukraine from the sea. That's cheap and effective. But keeping a regional fleet doesn't sound sexy. It's efficiency-maxing, not PR-maxing Image
And Russia is PR-maxing. Putin declared that the share of new ships should reach 70% by 2027. Old Soviet ships are becoming obsolete, Russia's building new ones. BUT. Major Soviet shipyards are located in Ukraine. So now Russia expands shipyard infrastructure to reach this goal Image
Soviet naval legacy is a curse of Russian military. USSR could afford ocean fleets with carrier strike group. Russia can't. But abandoning Soviet ambitions would require suppressing their own hubris (impossible). So they strive to maintain it. Ergo: they can't and won't land-max Image
How does it reflect on this war? First, Russian invading force is small. It has LOTS of artillery ofc. But it's not numerous enough to win. Pro-Russian analysts compare their advance with Barbarossa. But unlike Wehrmacht in 1941 Russian invaders have only *ONE ECHELON OF TROUPS* Image
How is a Blitzkrieg organised? By echelons. First echelon is moving forward as fast as they can. Ofc this means that lots of defenders will be left in their rear. But then the second echelon comes, then third, etc. They finish defenders, occupy territory, control the supply lines Image
If Russia launched a proper Barbarossa-style Blitzkrieg that would happen now - first, second, third echelons. But the second echelon didn't come. It never existed. Why? First, Russia's *not* landmaxing and thus doesn't have so much resources and infrastructure for the land war
Secondly, launching several echelons would require long arduous preparation. You need to mobilise them, move to the borders, quarter, maintain and supply. It's not that easy. It's a hard job that should have been done well in advance to wage a Blitzkrieg. And it hadn't been done
Why Russia didn't prepare a proper Blitzkrieg? And now we come for the third and main reason. Blitzkrieg is a war strategy. Blitzkrieg is how you break & suppress the enemy who's actually fighting. Russia didn't plan it because it didn't plan a war. It planned a Special Operation Image
Ofc partially that's just modern discourse. After WWII traditional understanding of sovereignty as of legal right of sovereign rulers to wage offensive war died. As a result modern states never admit they're waging wars. They're waging "pacifications", "counterterrorism", etc
Consider how all the War Departments and Ministries over the world were renamed into "Defence" in late 1940s. Everyone's defending, nobody's attacking. Why does the fighting happen then? Well, because of criminals - "bandits", "terrorists", "jihadees" or as now in Ukraine "Nazis"
Modern world abolished the distinction between the enemy and the criminal, a key idea of the Roman Law. Powers do wage wars, but to do so they need to criminalise and dehumanise their enemies. Hence, all the "terrorist" discourse. In a sense Putin is going with the flow
But on a deeper level Putin is absolutely correct. His declaration of "special operation" in Ukraine is sincere, because he didn't expect the war. He doesn't know how to do wars. For all of his life he's been organising and launching the special operations
First, as a KGB officer. Then, as St Petersburg city councillor for foreign affairs (= illegally selling Soviet warehouse stuff to the West). In 1990s he closely worked with the criminal world and he did it successfully. Here you see him with a thief-in-law, Grandpa Hassan Image
Btw that's how Putin's pal Grandpa Hassan is celebrating with his close circle. It gives some idea of Putin's business partners and associates
Putin worked with violent entrepreneurs used to killing. But. He had always had the upper hand. Federal and regional governments were very much stronger than these criminal bosses who were very much replaceable. Everyone of them had dozens of henchmen who wanted to take his place
Putin waged special operations when he had much stronger position than these criminals. And he got used to that. Later Yeltsin chose him as a successor and in this capacity Putin launched a bunch of special operations to consolidate power. Again with full support of higher ups Image
Yeah, Putin played badass even before becoming a President. But it was easy to play a badass when he was backed up by then President and the entire apparatus of
Kremlin. Huge power, no risk, no accountability
Later he initiated conflicts each time his had to boost his popularity and tough image. Chechnya, Georgia, Syria. But neither of this was a war. Every conflict was a Special operation waged:

1) for political goals
2) against small force which had no chance to win against Russia Image
Putin fought only with small countries. Chechnya - 1 million people, Georgia - 4. Syria had more, but he fought with rebels, with no proper training or armaments. Also "counterterrorist" discourse allowed Russians to simply level entire cities to the ground with no consequences Image
Every time Putin needed to confirm his alpha status he would devastate some little country with a Special Operation. They didn't require proper preparation because they bore no existential risk to Russia or to him. Like, the fuck they're gonna do? No risk = no need to bother Image
Putin decided to repeat this little trick again. Hence, not that numerous army of invasion, only one echelon of advance, etc. But Ukraine is much bigger - it has 44 million people. What was Putin thinking? Apparently he was expecting zero resistance from the Ukrainian army Image
Putin had a good reason to believe so. Indeed, in 2014 Russian regulars ("ихтамнеты" = "there aren't any of them there") easily destroyed Ukrainian forces in Debaltsevo and Ilovaysk. He saw that Ukrainian army is weak and he can easily route them simply sending Russian regulars Image
Strategically speaking Putin fucked up. He defeated Ukraine, inflicted pain and humiliation. Anyone with an IQ above the room temperature knew the war is not over and Russians would strike again. But - Putin didn't finish Ukraine back then. He thought he'd always have a chance Image
What happened next was quite predictable. Inflicting a painful but not critical defeat on your enemy is risky. Yeah, they kinda became weaker. But the balance of power within them changed. Court politics maxing interest groups lost and efficiency maxing upstarts get a chance Image
Formula of institutional evolution = scare + don't finish them. Napoleon smashed Prussians at Jena-Auerstedt, didn't finish them. Prussia evolved. Commodore Perry scared Japanese in 1853, but the US spiralled into Civil War and left them alone. Japan evolved
Nothing motivates as hard as an existential threat. First, Ukrainians admitted the truth:

«I'll be frank. Today we have no army. Now we can assemble a group of 5 thousand capable soldiers max [out of 125 on paper]"

- reported minister of defence in 2014
I'll make a pause, gonna resume in an hour or so. To be continued soon
In 2014 Ukrainian equipment was awful. Almost 100% vehicle and ammunition were 25+ year old Soviet stocks. Moreover, most of it just expired. Like vehicles existed on paper but were never checked or used since 1991. Their radiators, accumulators all rotten and unrepairable
FSB colonel who led pro-Russian insurgency in 2014 admitted it created problem for him, too. He wanted to restock from the Ukrainian military warehouses, but that stuff just didn't work. Like they took 28 anti-tank missiles and fired them all during Nikolaevka battle. None worked Image
Judging by the interviews with insurgents who were disappointed to find that rockets, shells, grenades taken from Ukrainian warehouses were 99% dysfunctional (ofc, they were 25+ years old) it's not surprising Ukraine lost to Russia in 2014. It's surprising they could fight at all
Even the ancient soviet radio machines didn't work. Ukrainian soldiers had to communicate with SMS and since network was often awful they had to throw their mobile phones up in air in a hope may be it will catch radio signal few meters over the ground
That's how Ukrainian army looked back then. No wonder it was immediately crushed by Russian regulars in Debaltsevo and Ilovaysk and Putin had every reason to believe that resistance will be broken the moment he launches his regular army en masse
A lot has changed. First, Ukraine has had six drafts. Men were drafted and sent to Donbass. Then most demobilised and returned to civilian life. This Donbass contingent was around 60 thousand soldiers and constantly rotated. So now Ukraine has 400 000+ veterans of Donbass war

Many of them were in combat. Thus Ukraine has huge number of veterans with combat experience. Probably more than Russia. Yes, Russia has been fighting in Syria. It never published the size of its force but it's estimated to be 2-3 thousand. Most Russian soldiers have not seen war
Furthermore, combat they've seen is different. Russian soldiers are used to fighting only when they total superiority. In Syria they would just level cities to the ground with bombers. Meanwhile, Ukrainian soldiers have fought only against far stronger and better equipped enemy
Equipment-wise this war took Ukrainian army half-resupplied. It developed many innovative weaponry of its own, but almost none of it was produced on large scale. In most cases soldiers have only few prototypes of new, Ukrainian-produced weaponry
Ukraine ordered 48 Turkish Bayraktars TB2 drones. That's not bad - more than twice what Azerbaijan had in Karabakh. But only 12 of them got to the troops by now. Ukraine is also developing new, stronger drone Bayraktar Akinci together with Turks, but it's too late for this war Image
However, Ukrainians got a number (unpublished) of American-produced Javelins and M141 Bunker Defeat Munition, & British-Swedish produced MBT LAWs. Together with Ukrainian produced anti-tank weaponry such as «Stugna-P», RK-3 "Corsar" and «Barrier» it helps to fight Russian tanks Image
Ukrainian troops hadn't received many new tanks by the time Putin attacked. But they got new armoured vehicles, such as domestic-produced Cossack-2 with Turkish produced Aselsan fighting modules and a number of American armoured vehicles, humvees, etc Image
Finally, Ukraine created a new type of troops - the troops of territorial defence, whose number is estimated in 60 000. It's a copy of the Polish troop type. These are civilians who get military training and can be mobilised in a day to fight only in their own town and region Image
Why? Well, that's pretty obvious. If Russia made a proper Blitzkrieg with several echelons of attack, Ukraine would lose anyway. But Russia didn't. And Ukrainians bet that they wouldn't. First - it's costly and difficult for a state security regime which isn't landmaxing
Second, Putin expected Ukrainian army to run away or surrender in the first day. Like most of foreign observers expected. Now they're of course changing the narrative, but if you look at their posts few days ago they didn't believe that Ukrainians would make any real resistance
So Putin attacked with only one echelon. Troops pushed forward leaving many non-destroyed Ukrainian regulars and levy behind. In a proper Blitzkrieg a second and third echelon would have come to finish Ukrainian defenders. But they didn't. These additional echelons didn't exist Image
Which immediately created the supply and replenishment problem. The first echelon pushed forward. It needs a supply in ammo, in fuel and well, in people. But these supply convoys are being attacked by the regulars and territorial defence troops left behind
By those few Bayraktars Ukraine got
And reportedly by the levy whom the government just distributed guns. These people would be unable to stand against the Russian columns but they can attack convoys. Consider that Ukraine has many veterans with combat experience among civilians
Strelkov, who led pro-Russian insurgency in 2014 confirms this version in his telegram. Supply columns are being destroyed because there's no second echelon Image
Putin is apparently concerned. In the video of 25 Feb he called for Ukrainian military to do a coup d'erat. He wouldn't need it if his plan worked in the first place Image
What does it mean? Putin's plan didn't work. Cuz he didn't plan for war. He never fought a war and has no idea how to fight them. He has been always doing Special Operations and this is a Special Operation, too. They should have just run away or surrender, but they keep fighting
The defeat in this operation will inflict enormous consequences for Putin and his regime. They are unlikely to survive this defeat. Meanwhile, it's unlikely that Putin wins by the same methods
It's not that Russian morale is low, it's rather that it depends on how hard the war is.Most Russian troops would be enthusiastic or wouldn't mind against a small foreign vacation with fun and adventures. Fighting a hard long war with real possibility of death is another matter
Now my laptop died and wouldn't turn on again, so typing from phone
Morale of Russian troops is widely overestimated. According to sociological studies the main motivation to enlist is usually to get an apartment. They are usually young men from underprivileged background with no real prospects in life. That's a chance to get a housing from state
Now if you are dead, you can't get a housing. Perhaps those already in Ukraine have little choice but the very fact that resistance continues, war is bloody and casualties are real would hugely demotivate those back at home. Expect no enthusiasm to go there on Russian side
What Putin can do?

1. Start destroying infrastructure (done)
2. Blockade cities (done)
3. Simply level cities with bombers and artillery like in Chechnya or Syria (may be)

The first two would inflict humanitarian catastrophe and as he hopes break the will
Third one is more problematic. Unlike Chechnya or Syria where you could easily justify the open genocide with "fighting jihadees" which is a fair play in the "war on terror", here it would be more difficult and actually might draw the NATO response. Still, I can't exclude this
So my prognosis is: if the fight continues and victory is not achieved Russian ability and willingness to fight will be disappearing quickly. Putin doesn't have a choice but many of his subordinates do


Even in case when Russia doesn't technically lose and some source of armistice/agreement is achieved, Ukraine already won. Why? Many describe this conflict as kinetic. Bullshit. Human conflicts or interactions are not kinetic. They are mythological and run by myths
Money is a myth. It exists only because we believe so. Power is a myth. Nation is a myth. Institutions are purely mythological. Consider the story of the burning of Moscow in 1572. Ivan the Terrible divided his country to Zemschina (land) and Oprichnina (taken apart)
Oprichnina was under his personal rule. Oprichniks - his forces - launched terror campaign against Zemschina. They slaughtered entire noble houses, massacred cities, killed enormous number of commoners facing no resistance. Why? Were they strong and brave? No. Because if the myth
Russian people existed within a myth of Orthodox monarchy. Ofc there would be individuals who would go against the Orthodox Tsar. But it was impossible to organise a resistance against him. Thus resistance would be individuals and easily crushed by organised Oprichnik forces
Oprichniks became very brave and badass. Because mythology of the Russian people prohibited 99% of them to resist these security forces. So with the time they decided they are really cool.

In 1572 when Crimean Khan attacked Moscow Oprichnik forces went to face him
Kinetically speaking they had overwhelming superiority. Guns, cannons, much heavier armor or weaponry. Their defense and firepower was very much stronger. But they were routed in one day simply by arrows. Because they were used to fight people whose myth prohibited to resist them
Within the Muscovite mythology Oprichniks were invincible untouchable demigods, as hands of Orthodox Tsar, who's kinda living God. But when facing foreign enemy they left this mythological space. And entered a new space where they are just people and can get arrow in the face
They were not used to getting arrows in the face. The very realisation they are not demigods but mortals shocked them. They ran away dropping their armor, guns and cannons. Moscow was burnt to the ground despite having total "kinetic" and technological superiority
So. Power is mythological. Russian state security are gods within their own mythological space where they represent the god like state. But what they found that Ukrainians left this mythological space. Thus Russian state security has no power there.

They are just mortals
And finally. The very fact of resistance against so much superior enemy very much empowers the Ukrainian mythology. It's enormous mythos building we are witnessing. The very phenomenon of war is inconceivable without taking into account mythological dimension
Consider Venice. When Napoleon came they surrendered without a shot. Very smart, saved lives, saved the city. It's just killed the mythos of Venice. People lived but the Republic died. It was never restored and is unlikely to be restored again
Theorists of war of the bygone age understood it. Clausewitz pointed out that it's important not only if you lost independence but *how* you lost it. If you submitted without a fight, you saved lives. But you killed your mythos. You'll be digested by the conqueror
But if you lost after the brutal and bloody fight your mythos is alive. The memory of the last battle will live through the ages. It will shape the mythological space your descendants live in and they'll attempt to restore independence at the first opportunity. End of thread
If someone finds the original article please post it.

it’s excellent so I thought it deserved to be posted outside the conflict thread where it’ll drown and be forgotten.
 

Ecderha

Experienced member
Messages
4,552
Reactions
4 7,822
Nation of residence
Bulgaria
Nation of origin
Turkey
Please consider that lot of russia media keep hiding about WAR. There is so much propaganda at moment that russian people just start to find out what Putinki DID
It is Social factor which is ONE of direction which russia will lose war and much more.

Only why that russian CAN SEE the REAL TRUE of Present is through International messaging platforms

Like this

It is explain so much about Putin circle of ill minds creating Evil and Diabolic actions which lead to ONE THING DEATH
 

Barzani

Committed member
Messages
154
Reactions
97
Nation of residence
Iraq
Nation of origin
Iraq
Yeah a lot of that tweet thread relies on Russia maintaining a light infantry, light tank push (their probing vanguard) without using heavier or more advanced weapon systems. It's only been a few days.
 

Merzifonlu

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
718
Reactions
25 2,155
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
You are mistaken.
Russia will win this war but lose everything else.
No. Russia will lose this war and also will lose everyting else. Russia's only salvation is to change this fate: An immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of forces.
 
Last edited:

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
5,091
Reactions
12,694
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
No. Russia will lose this war and also will lose everyting else. Russia's only salvation is to change this fate: an immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of forces.
We'll see in a couple of days when the Russians take Kiev.
Just hope that they dont start carpet bombing cities.
 

Saithan

Experienced member
Denmark Correspondent
Messages
8,634
Reactions
37 19,745
Nation of residence
Denmark
Nation of origin
Turkey
The part about the article that I found very important was how Ukraine rotated servicemen the past many years ensuring all got frontline donbass experience.

I’ve said it before but my conviction now is that all men and women must serve in the military and stand guard in hudut or peace spring area and such. I do not believe that Turkeys future bodes well if a religious segment considers Secular Republic supporters as an enemy. It’s more important to show them the attrocities around the world so they can value the Turkish Republic and the freedom they enjoy.
 
M

Manomed

Guest
Yeah a lot of that tweet thread relies on Russia maintaining a light infantry, light tank push (their probing vanguard) without using heavier or more advanced weapon systems. It's only been a few days.
Yeah thats retarded for russians to do I don't think Its softening up etc they are not using their full power for some reason don't say Its civilians etc Its not about that
 

Merzifonlu

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
718
Reactions
25 2,155
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
We'll see in a couple of days when the Russians take Kiev.
Just hope that they dont start carpet bombing cities.
Not even if Kyiv destroy all the cities in Ukraine, the result will not change. Because Ukraine looks like Vietnam, not Afghanistan or Iraq. Massive quantities weapons and experienced fighters will flow into Ukraine unceasingly.
 

TR_123456

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
5,091
Reactions
12,694
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
Not even if Kyiv destroy all the cities in Ukraine, the result will not change. Because Ukraine looks like Vietnam, not Afghanistan or Iraq. Massive quantities weapons and experienced fighters will flow into Ukraine unceasingly.
Not even close(Vietnam),Ukraine is almost completely flat,guerilla war not an option when buildings are flattened.
You seem overly confident in Ukraine's capabilities.
Ukranians are brave but also rational,lets see what happens.
 

Merzifonlu

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
718
Reactions
25 2,155
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
No sir, I am confident in NATO's grudge and capabilities. May be rational Ukrainans will drop weapons but foreign fanatical fighters not. Like Syria!
 

Lool

Experienced member
DefenceHub Diplomat
Messages
2,920
Reactions
14 5,032
Nation of residence
Albania
Nation of origin
Albania
If this war escalates, Russia will end up winning this fight but will lose the war.... Period!


-Most of its military equipment will be gone
-Most of Russia's soft power about how amazing its military is and how they are the 3rd mightiest military force worldwode is practically in the dustbin rn
-Most of its economy would be embargoed and broken
-Recession would be severe and Unemployment will skyrocket
-Taking loans will be catastrophically expensive and paying international debts will be near to impossible due to ruble being crushed
-Imports will skyrocket while its export value will hit rock-bottom due to ruble being crushed
-Putin will be considered as the new Hitler and how much of a killer and bloodthirsty asshole he is which will make it harder for him to stand on the international stage since his image will be in the worst dustbin ever made
Etc......

Above all, the new attempts (if made😂) to restructure the military and learn from their mistakea; however after seeing what happened in Libya and then ukraine, it seems that bloodthirsty Putin and his idiotic cronies dont learn


Russia will win the fight but lose the war.... Period!!
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,767
Reactions
119 19,787
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
The part about the article that I found very important was how Ukraine rotated servicemen the past many years ensuring all got frontline donbass experience.

It is actually super key thing in the end. You need to be working out in regular deployments to get things smooth and slick on such stuff....2nd nature in the head and training....and also knowing your logistics inside out for each intensity level (and make use of defensive advantage on that etc).

NATO found this out when it analysed REFORGER each time afterwards too (down to minute detail in the before and after to get final %'s on wargame reality and re-insert the lessons in relevant areas)....

i.e which units mobilised and performed the best...which ones did not....and crucially why (and address it). They are really only power at scale that has done this on planet Earth.

The other (non western p5) powers (i.e China and Russia) of note simply have not done so ....because they:

a) need to spend that resource to do so (and trade this off in their mindset with other spending they do in military or non-military domains)...and enjoying bulk deterrence that might be counter-productive to this (compared to smaller and especially threatened-feeling countries).

b) their varying/lacking level of development+experience in military institutions developed to handle and address failures rather than make it "someone elses problem" in the ladder or simply cover it up etc.

Thus it is wartime when these things get called out and fleshed out in the end....for all to see for themselves, whatever the strategy and context that is opted for past it.

Indian mobilisations of scale (brasstacks and then parakram) are somewhat complicated story of their own...again there were major issues baked in.

But China and Russia have not done that kind of mobilisation relative to their force structures (till Russia just did now and now finding out problems real time).

Other countries (of smaller scale) have to keep things rotating well to stay prepped and relevant as they can....and when threatened in some way....often do just that. They generally manage a lot better than bigger countries overall on this as you can imagine.

@Joe Shearer @Paro @AlphaMike

BTW the related contents here also doesn't deserve to be lost in the large RUS-UKR war thread...and may be of use for audience in this thread to get some detail on what people are seeing with the Russian approach (at least in their first phase):

TIFWIW:


1/I am going to try to explain the irrational Russian Armed Forces behavior towards strategy, common thought, or even the chances repatriated SSO that are now POW try to murder a bunch of men with stars.

2/Here's where I will start from. The Russian armed forces have never attempted anything like this. This isn't about what kind of war they're fighting it's about what they're capable of mustering.

3/Secondly it seems the decision making structrues have low opinion in general of Ukraine and their fighting abilities and sort of an ideal that there's a willing subservience in Ukranians if they get to be part of Russia. Pure racism informing their decision making process.

4/Thirdly battalion tactical groups are terrible units to support operations. They have overload the commander lack support and might not properly integrate with air or do adeqaute scouting as signals and recon are missing along with liasons with them.

5/Fourthly without standing down even if parts of the UA Nat Guard, Police, Border Guard, Territorials and Army are defeated, UA regional commands can be autonomous for days and are vast structures, short of ordering their demobilization their removal is way too costly for RuMoD.

6/And there's a lot of hidden corruption and misreporting that gets baked in into calculations but the higher you go up the chain as in a corporation, the more dimissive management is that it will be an issue. AKA Putin doesn't even remotely grasp how bad it is.

7/Based on those 5 let me try to explain the situation now. Russian units aren't stopping fire or limiting use of their kalibrs and stand off strikes. This is all they could muster south. Kalibrs are limited by launch tubes, a bit over a hundred is what they had ready.

8/We saw constant trains and movement over time moving Ru equipment and lots of aircraft being moved over to mustering points and at the end people. By then the supply was at its limit just keeping them warm and fed. They found out the hard way this was their logistical limit.

9/What people sa wasn't that troops packed spare tanks for long drives. They were carying their fuel reserves on them. The few organic refueling trucks were not enough to make up an actual reserve or depot. They had one full compliment, some spares in one truck , thats it.

10/This didn't seem that crazy in the Kremlin because the prevailing thought in the higher echelons and Putin's inner circle and the FSB was one highly dismissive of Ukraine highly hyped up by Russian army propaganda reporting. They missed that they were buying their own bullshit

11/The release of the information paralyzed them in terms of decision making. But the inherent bias remained and UA delayed mobilising so it didn't dissuade them. For 7 days they ate away supplies rather than actively trying to build them further, they were waiting a go order.

12/The limited supply meant it had to be a mad dash. BTGs were split into smaller sub units traveling on multiple roads to avoid congestion. When they met something they'd wait to coalesce or get into a fight. If the UA was suprised it would work.

13/Were the Ru troops quality ones they'd do better with just surprise on their side. But they were mostly poorly trained as full units were never called up before. Usually a brigade would send only a company and could hand pick.

14/Now it's either confess the lies about readiness or be creative. Because the corruption had created such a rot, brigade commandes chose "creative" (criminal), conscripts were added to the build up. Ghosts soldiers on the roster were hidden. That meant BTGs were far greener.

15/When these hit a city or made contact they'd deploy in unideal formations of platoon to company size. Not their fault all that much, this is what they knew. Then if a UA unit knew in advance where they were and was careful, it would anihilate the BTG splinter formation.

16/Because the timetable had to be kept, supplies were already short with the delay Ru troops would go a step further. They'd keep one sub unit to block and redirect subsequent units, the rest would continue on parallel roads. Again timetable meant usually more major roads.

17/After a couple of road blocks, BTG'd be diluted, lost a bunch of units and fighting to standstill. You'd expect that there would be air or artiller support. But BTGs aren't suited for that, when they move in chunks in parallel the artillery spotters could be in another group.

18/As we said also there was a problem stocking supplies but still CAS should probably not be as limited? Yes but Russian SSO more used to directing it had other tasks and Russia doesn't have a platform like the US surveilance planes and drones that can operate in contested air.

19/And the air was contested because of the limited early strikes due to the small build up + limited recon of where UA AF & AD were prior to this. Satelites take pics at known times, moving equipment often can dissuede strikes as it's uncertain anything will be in place.

20/What then was struck were major stationary objects, depots in main areas, radars, major command and control but again limited by number of reloads. So then Ru MoD started rolling the columns with heavy support of helicopters and planes ahead.

21/This works on day 1 when you know where your guys start & can track where they are easily and you know beyond that point it's all enemy. Once you land and refuel, it's less easy especially because as we mentioned, a BTG splitinter lacks a signals unit, just has a few officers.

22/Then comes the air asault. Becuase you have to be quick you also have to do risky stuff. The problem of course is that because your helicopters are parked in fields, ready for one load with some trucks and one set of ammo, you can do it once a day with each group.

23/That's why you wait till the end of the assualt attempt to see if it works. If you have to refuel and prep for a second go, your trucks have to go to a depot and reload and then come back. And only then try again.

24/You still have to try to take the airport fast and get guys in because if the operation takes too long and you haven't kept them(the UA) on the back foot your green troops are still moving piecemeal on roads, don't have much with them, any small village could be their end.

25/So the air assault fails, part of the pincer moves fail, you can't budge most of the UA troops what do you do? You go for broke, hope you win the race between entrechment in Kyiv and you just throwing all you have and hope if you decapitate UA, regional commands lose faith.

26/Otherwise becuase what remains of your force is split in small groups moving on main roads UA can mobilize move via back roads and just recapture most of the towns as you have few troops for actual 24/7 duties and to even spot them moving back into the town.

27/Can it work? I don't know. Is it a good plan. Hell no. Could they execute anything else, without the entire structure confessing the army has corruption,which yes the boss expected, but it's such a rot it might cost him his throne, yeah not when he's in this mood.

28/ So the spineless bunch decided to throw away 18-19 year old conscripts and veterans and pray they get lucky. Also that Putin hasn't noticed how nuts this is shows that he's either delusional or is completely inept when it comes to military affairs.



PS/ A lot of the commentary prior missed the readiness of the Russian forces and the poor state of affairs. Overreliance on official statements and major military pages missed tons of low level testimonials and regional investigative pieces on how big the rot was.

PPS/ Aggregation of Zvezda and VK mil informing pages and MAKS show sales pitches should be tempered by what we can find on the ground and regional and smaller outlets, forums and blogs were servicemembers were pissed were abundant to the point they shouldn't have been dismissed.

PPPS/ We saw lots of evidence for that and even then a part of the community of analysts dismissed it assuming once it's about having a war footing RU structures will take it serious. But that's not how bad habits work.

PPPPS/ And in the minds of the Kremlin they have been continuously on a war footing. So if during that time they left arms companies bankrupt sometimes even more than once, the habit was not going to break most likely.

To quote Nemtsov here:
<<Он ёбнутый... чтоб вы поняли?>>

And huge thanks to @ain92ru who knows a lot more than me about this but due to the situation in Russia has posted a lot less.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,767
Reactions
119 19,787
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Forgot to tag @Vergennes ....he might have something quite useful to contribute on this topic.
 

Barzani

Committed member
Messages
154
Reactions
97
Nation of residence
Iraq
Nation of origin
Iraq
Yeah thats retarded for russians to do I don't think Its softening up etc they are not using their full power for some reason don't say Its civilians etc Its not about that

It is, they thought the Ukrainians would collapse quicker. Also that if they release footage of all the Ukrainian soldiers they've killed, it would possibly make the Ukrainians fight harder and make occupation more difficult and alarm the west even more.

That's why all footage is one sided at the moment, Russia is not releasing anything.

Though this may change soon, as they want to end this quickly.
 
M

Manomed

Guest
It is, they thought the Ukrainians would collapse quicker. Also that if they release footage of all the Ukrainian soldiers they've killed, it would possibly make the Ukrainians fight harder and make occupation more difficult and alarm the west even more.

That's why all footage is one sided at the moment, Russia is not releasing anything.

Though this may change soon, as they want to end this quickly.
I disagree If russians were winning everywhere would be filled with pictures etc I know how russian propaganda works
 

Barzani

Committed member
Messages
154
Reactions
97
Nation of residence
Iraq
Nation of origin
Iraq
I disagree If russians were winning everywhere would be filled with pictures etc I know how russian propaganda works


Russia has not released footage of them decimating Ukrainian defenders trying to reposition, it's all Ukrainian civilians posting it like this video.

Also no pictures of killed Ukrainian soldiers in the cities they have taken or vehicles destroyed, again imagery is only shared by the western side.

Remember, they are trying to look like the good guys and consider east Ukrainians Russians
 
Messages
8
Reactions
5
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Australia
If someone finds the original article please post it.

it’s excellent so I thought it deserved to be posted outside the conflict thread where it’ll drown and be forgotten.
The Javelins and MBT LAWs should be hidden and transported in civilian vehicles, random vehicles.

Utility vehicles like 4WDs, SUVs, pickups and utes, should be reserved for resupplying, and personnel movement.

What is that big-arse river going right through the middle of Ukraine there?? boats, lots of boats..

I am interested to know who is advising president Volodymyr Zelenskyy?
 
Messages
8
Reactions
5
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Australia
The Javelins and MBT LAWs should be hidden and transported in civilian vehicles, random vehicles.

Utility vehicles like 4WDs, SUVs, pickups and utes, should be reserved for resupplying, and personnel movement.

What is that big-arse river going right through the middle of Ukraine there?? boats, lots of boats..

I am interested to know who is advising president Zelenskyy?

I wrote this tonight, to a good friend of mine in FB-


That is a lot of pissed off guys, with a lot of guns, and some of them are really really smart, smarter than the Russian plods in the tanks, and on the ground...

and a lot of guns,
and all those windows...
...so, so many windows.

I dunno,
but I think the Ukraine
standing citizen army
may stand a chance.

:)
 
Messages
8
Reactions
5
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Australia
I wrote this tonight, to a good friend of mine in FB-


That is a lot of pissed off guys, with a lot of guns, and some of them are really really smart, smarter than the Russian plods in the tanks, and on the ground...

and a lot of guns,
and all those windows...
...so, so many windows.

I dunno,
but I think the Ukraine
standing citizen army
may stand a chance.

:)
I really hope so.
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom