PK Navy Jinnah Class Frigate Project

[Anmdt]

Since the project has come to the light prior to the launching of PNS Babur, being the first ship of the PN Milgem project, Jinnah Class Multi-purpose frigate have been an interesting project.
Started as a joint project between Turkish ASFAT and PK Navy, it has been truly "joint" by involvement of personnel from Pakistan on design process under consultancy of the ASFAT and Turkish design subcontractors. Overall design criteria and platform concept has been selected primarily by Pakistan, the design evolves and continues.
One may expect, looking at the PN Milgem's base design, Ada-Class, the PN Milgem (Babur Class from now on) is capable of reaching 3300 tonnes with ease, thus the aim of Jinnah Class project can be assumed to design ships with flexible design that can span from 3500 to 4500 tonnes and beyond.
With the current requirements, it is expected to have the following payload:
- 8 cruise missiles
- 2x8 cell VLS + additional VLS similar to the British GWS35 for Albatros NG and for CAMM
- 2x ASW rocket launcher
- 1x 76 mm main gun
- 2x 25mm RCWS
- Novel EA/ED system
- 3-D search radar
- Hull mounted and Towed array sonar
- Gökdeniz CIWS
- Anti-torpedo countermeasures and other means of counter-measures (Radar, Chaff)
- RHIB bays compatible with USV

An initial design study was published on IDEF'21 by ASFAT:
- Length: 119.55
- Beam: 15.40
- Displacement: 3300 tonnes
- Complement: 200, including Speacial forces and aviation team.

Reference to the @Altay_TR for the images:

The additional platform placed in front of bridge can be seen to spacious to host 2x8 VLS and additional launchers on the side-positions.

Placement of sensors and payload that can be seen here. It seems to be equipped with RIBAT Electronic support module that is developed by Global Industrial & Defence Solutions (GDI), thus it is safe to assume the platform now is going to have Pakistan's contribution at greater extends.

The platform's propulsion is told to be all-diesels 4x6 MW that can run on CODAD configuration, this indicates 2 diesels on a single shaft line, however equal power of each engine also indicates that any single engine may power both of the propellers thus increasing survivability. For this reason, it is expected to see a change on exhaust configuration to let additional space in the mid-hull for additional VLS bay for future upgrades.

The design, despite of starting a few months ago, seem to be well-studied given the past-expertise of ASFAT. The sonar dome also seen to be different from Ada or I-Class thus indicates a new sonar being introduced, and the sonar-dome could be studied with Pakistan. There also have been rumors that Pakistan is going to establish a towing tank for development of various surface and submerged platforms, Jinnah class' scaled model tests may take place in Pakistan.

 

[Test7]

If im not wrong Pakistanis were expecting more firepower. Now that STM has exhibited such this modell, we can assume that the Pakistani navy demanded this displacement. There are options up to TF2000 displacement in Turkish side.

What do you think @Waz ?

 

[The Dutchman]

Only 16 vls for such a ship?

 

[The Dutchman]

You realize that Ada class has no VLS right?

It's an ASW/ASuW corvette, not an air-defense frigate.

can you really call this a ADA class ship?
I dont think so.

 

[LegionnairE]

can you really call this a ADA class ship?
I dont think so.

Yeah it's based on Ada class so I think it's important that you should understand the design philosophy of that class.

It's for naval superiority, not for air defense.

Jinnah class is more like a light İ class and it's perfectly fine. It has gökdeniz instead of Mk 49, and VLS for probably ESSM

 

[The Dutchman]

Yeah it's based on Ada class so I think it's important that you should understand the design philosophy of that class.

It's for naval superiority, not for air defense.

Jinnah class is more like a light İ class.

Ok but the Pakistanis are complaining about it having only 16VLS.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Ok but the Pakistanis are complaining about it having only 16VLS.

True. I read this on Pakistan Defence Forum too. They want 32 VLS.

Oh, and they don't find the ship's stealthiness on the radars enough.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

We need to understand the PN's doctrine.

I don't think the PN ever intends to use its surface fleet to fight an enemy navy.

Its main goals are to (1) police its EEZ and (2) carry out various operations like ASW.

There's no aircraft carrier or fleet task force type of situation.

In reality, the 'fighting fist' of the PN is its submarine fleet, and it's spending big on the sub-surface fleet. They have the 8 Type 039As on order, but they're looking for shallow-water attack subs too. In fact, the industry grapevine's now reporting that the PN is interesting in another conventional submarine to complement the Type 039As. Jane's recently reported that the PN is interested in acquiring 2 Reis-class submarines from Turkey, for example.

Basically, the PN isn't taking its surface fleet as seriously as its sub fleet. It wants a world-class submarine fleet (in numbers and quality), but it wants a mostly passable surface fleet. The PN surface fleet will police Pakistan's EEZ/SLOC, and in wartime, carry out specific missions like ASW. However, they're not going to impose a maritime exclusion zone (MEZ) or slam a blockade on anyone.

Everything about the J-Class' design screams 'MVP' (minimally viable product).

They've swapped the CODAG out for CODAD, stuck to a typical AShW, AAW, and ASW set-up, and are sticking to the essentials with hull design, subsystems, and sensors. I think they're also aiming to keep the costs and complexity under control. It is, after all, KSEW's first time constructing this large a ship with pre-fab kits. Heck, they might even source the inputs (steel, etc) directly from the suppliers.

I also think the PN is trying to keep the J-Class affordable enough to acquire in numbers. The PN's previous CNS said they're working towards a surface fleet of 20 or so major ships. If we include the 4 Type 054A/Ps, 4 PN MILGEMs, and 4 F-22Ps, that's a requirement of 8 ships. The PN will also need to think about replacing the F-22Ps as the first ship of that class will hit 20 years of age in 2030. So, the outlay may need to support the purchase of 8-12 ships through the next 20 years.

As for the VLS, I think the big constraint is the GWS. If the PN can acquire SYLVER or Turkey's MDAS, I think they'll be able to load 32 cells onto that area -- it seems doable. Of course, the CAMM-ER probably isn't a low-cost missile.

@Cabatli_53 @Anmdt @Nilgiri @Waz

 

[Nutuk]

@saqrkh

I think you are wrong buddy, no any army nor navy will put all her eggs in one basket. If it does, she has lost already from begin.

You have to see what Pakistan has in her power, Pakistan is not a rich country, she cannot afford a navy of blue water destroyers and cruisers to attack other countries far away. What she can though is having a navy with littoral Combat Ships to defend her shores.

With a good mix of littoral combat ships and submarines a navy can be a very potent defensive navy and that is what Pakistan is doing. You may dream of destroyers and cruisers but Pakistan navy is building up a very nice defensive line with quite potent ships, 4x Type 54, 4x Milgem PN, ?6x Jinnah class.

With Milgem PN and Jinnah class I am sure the Pakistan shipbuilding industry will already have gained enough knowhow to go design and build on her own and I am sure Turkey will also help with destroyers (like TF2000) in due time.

Turkey never let friends alone.

 

[LegionnairE]

@saqrkh

If what you're saying is true then why bother with creating a new class? why not just build more babur class ships?

 

[Nilgiri]

We need to understand the PN's doctrine.

I don't think the PN ever intends to use its surface fleet to fight an enemy navy.

Its main goals are to (1) police its EEZ and (2) carry out various operations like ASW.

There's no aircraft carrier or fleet task force type of situation.

In reality, the 'fighting fist' of the PN is its submarine fleet, and it's spending big on the sub-surface fleet. They have the 8 Type 039As on order, but they're looking for shallow-water attack subs too. In fact, the industry grapevine's now reporting that the PN is interesting in another conventional submarine to complement the Type 039As. Jane's recently reported that the PN is interested in acquiring 2 Reis-class submarines from Turkey, for example.

Basically, the PN isn't taking its surface fleet as seriously as its sub fleet. It wants a world-class submarine fleet (in numbers and quality), but it wants a mostly passable surface fleet. The PN surface fleet will police Pakistan's EEZ/SLOC, and in wartime, carry out specific missions like ASW. However, they're not going to impose a maritime exclusion zone (MEZ) or slam a blockade on anyone.

Everything about the J-Class' design screams 'MVP' (minimally viable product).

They've swapped the CODAG out for CODAD, stuck to a typical AShW, AAW, and ASW set-up, and are sticking to the essentials with hull design, subsystems, and sensors. I think they're also aiming to keep the costs and complexity under control. It is, after all, KSEW's first time constructing this large a ship with pre-fab kits. Heck, they might even source the inputs (steel, etc) directly from the suppliers.

I also think the PN is trying to keep the J-Class affordable enough to acquire in numbers. The PN's previous CNS said they're working towards a surface fleet of 20 or so major ships. If we include the 4 Type 054A/Ps, 4 PN MILGEMs, and 4 F-22Ps, that's a requirement of 8 ships. The PN will also need to think about replacing the F-22Ps as the first ship of that class will hit 20 years of age in 2030. So, the outlay may need to support the purchase of 8-12 ships through the next 20 years.

As for the VLS, I think the big constraint is the GWS. If the PN can acquire SYLVER or Turkey's MDAS, I think they'll be able to load 32 cells onto that area -- it seems doable. Of course, the CAMM-ER probably isn't a low-cost missile.

@Cabatli_53 @Anmdt @Nilgiri @Waz

I'd agree overall.

The doctrine suggests more intent in sub-surface potency given its relevant force-multiplication (w.r.t investment and time needed) to the Pakistani naval situation at large (and options there w.r.t what's rigid and flexible).

I would go far as to say the surface fleet is support detail (sleight of hand, smoke and mirrors and whatever can be done on top as situation presents itself) for the sub surface guys (which I think Pakistan will double up in. It affords a dimension that Pakistan can also optimise away from a traditional spread other navies use to wargame and rely upon for their doctrine.

This (sub-surface) approach is also driven by Pakistan's lack of raw shipyard capacity+diversity (and its lack of distribution/hedging of them - given all is concentrated in Karachi). SSK (as a contained asset) can be leveraged off foreign MIC more immediately given whats needed to invest+grow+maintain compared to above-surface assets for shipyards....and what each respectively can deliver.

Not taking anything away from MILGEM and other stuff Pakistan gets for it (surface wise) with time....but looking at the broad ecosystem parameters on offer here...and the funding availability I forsee.

This is not gone unnoticed from India, given the increasing shift to dedicated ASW (Kamorta, Poseidon etc) assets too, though this is also influenced by the raw scale PLAN is able to project increasingly into Indian Ocean too.

In any case, it will be interesting to see this decade what the subsurface sensoring investment will be for unmanned resources and also how Pakistan's MPA and own ASW shapes up in more integrated way w.r.t the above surface realm it can afford and deploy.

The overall strategy extends to how Pakistan governs its affairs w.r.t Army and AirForce too if one pays attention. It is very much situation of making the most of what we have (given the situations inherited which is longer topic to get into)....there is little available room to expand laterally into domains other armed forces have more scope and appetite for.

 

[Anmdt]

If im not wrong Pakistanis were expecting more firepower. Now that STM has exhibited such this modell, we can assume that the Pakistani navy demanded this displacement. There are options up to TF2000 displacement in Turkish side.

What do you think @Waz ?

STM or ASFAT? I think this project is being carried out with MSB ASFAT.
We will need to get use to bi-head structure MSB ASFAT and SSB STM, a luxury for us but both of them conducts negotiations and bag deals.

can you really call this a ADA class ship?
I dont think so.

It is not affilated with Milgem project anymore. This ship has a different architecture from Ada-Class. It will even diverge more as time passes.

True. I read this on Pakistan Defence Forum too. They want 32 VLS.

Oh, and they don't find the ship's stealthiness on the radars enough.

Looks like they are expert in anything. The RCS is superb for a design emerged in a few months. It is not perfect but it is enough.

The ship's design support up to 32 VLS + 24 Albatros NG/ CAMM at once. However this requries increase of tonnage to 4500 and beyond. Pakistan getting a flexible design that they can scale up to get heavy frigate, scale down to get light MP frigate.

We need to understand the PN's doctrine.

I don't think the PN ever intends to use its surface fleet to fight an enemy navy.

Its main goals are to (1) police its EEZ and (2) carry out various operations like ASW.

There's no aircraft carrier or fleet task force type of situation.

In reality, the 'fighting fist' of the PN is its submarine fleet, and it's spending big on the sub-surface fleet. They have the 8 Type 039As on order, but they're looking for shallow-water attack subs too. In fact, the industry grapevine's now reporting that the PN is interesting in another conventional submarine to complement the Type 039As. Jane's recently reported that the PN is interested in acquiring 2 Reis-class submarines from Turkey, for example.

Basically, the PN isn't taking its surface fleet as seriously as its sub fleet. It wants a world-class submarine fleet (in numbers and quality), but it wants a mostly passable surface fleet. The PN surface fleet will police Pakistan's EEZ/SLOC, and in wartime, carry out specific missions like ASW. However, they're not going to impose a maritime exclusion zone (MEZ) or slam a blockade on anyone.

Everything about the J-Class' design screams 'MVP' (minimally viable product).

They've swapped the CODAG out for CODAD, stuck to a typical AShW, AAW, and ASW set-up, and are sticking to the essentials with hull design, subsystems, and sensors. I think they're also aiming to keep the costs and complexity under control. It is, after all, KSEW's first time constructing this large a ship with pre-fab kits. Heck, they might even source the inputs (steel, etc) directly from the suppliers.

I also think the PN is trying to keep the J-Class affordable enough to acquire in numbers. The PN's previous CNS said they're working towards a surface fleet of 20 or so major ships. If we include the 4 Type 054A/Ps, 4 PN MILGEMs, and 4 F-22Ps, that's a requirement of 8 ships. The PN will also need to think about replacing the F-22Ps as the first ship of that class will hit 20 years of age in 2030. So, the outlay may need to support the purchase of 8-12 ships through the next 20 years.

As for the VLS, I think the big constraint is the GWS. If the PN can acquire SYLVER or Turkey's MDAS, I think they'll be able to load 32 cells onto that area -- it seems doable. Of course, the CAMM-ER probably isn't a low-cost missile.

@Cabatli_53 @Anmdt @Nilgiri @Waz

I strongly sense PN will be getting Turkish MDAS. You are right after-all, despite of an available AESA radar CENK-S , PN asked for Smart-S for this ship, it is safe to assume they plan to get from this ship in high numbers. I think this project will resemble Ada class, Pakistan will provide contribution overtime with subsystems and revive the industry to do so. It seems to start with ESM and may involve USVs, tracking radar, weapons and other electronics like consoles or even parts of CMS.

Also, for the larger variants the mast seem tl be wide enough to accomodate CAFRAD multi function X band module. A second mast indicates it can be used for a survailance radar in S band. We can say in the end the ship will become like Babcock's frigate. Even if PN needs an expensive platform it will be derived from this.

@saqrkh

If what you're saying is true then why bother with creating a new class? why not just build more babur class ships?

Babur can not support beyond 3500 tonnes i think. They can make more ships on this class as well even without weapons as an OPV, they own the IP rights of Babur.

 

[Nutuk]

@saqrkh

If what you're saying is true then why bother with creating a new class? why not just build more babur class ships?

Maybe Jinnah class was mainly designed by Pakistani engineers under guidance? I don't know that is a question only your own ministers can answer. I like the Jinnah class more than the Babur class.

There is also said that from the 4 ships the first 3 will be Babur and 4th to be build as Jinnah class and later Pakistan will build as many Jinnah class as she wants. So it solely depends on what the PN is planning

 

[Anmdt]

Maybe Jinnah class was mainly designed by Pakistani engineers under guidance? I don't know that is a question only your own ministers can answer. I like the Jinnah class more than the Babur class.

There is also said that from the 4 ships the first 3 will be Babur and 4th to be build as Jinnah class and later Pakistan will build as many Jinnah class as she wants. So it solely depends on what the PN is planning

In my opinion, merely commenting by seeing certain lines, it is designed by Turkish engineers of a certain company. Asfat here is the main contractor of the design and project and they will be creating the concept (unlike PN Milgem) with Pakistan, with a difference, this time Pakistan will not only deliver requirements but also study the design with asfat.

 

[Baron]

@saqrkh

I think you are wrong buddy, no any army nor navy will put all her eggs in one basket. If it does, she has lost already from begin.

You have to see what Pakistan has in her power, Pakistan is not a rich country, she cannot afford a navy of blue water destroyers and cruisers to attack other countries far away. What she can though is having a navy with littoral Combat Ships to defend her shores.

With a good mix of littoral combat ships and submarines a navy can be a very potent defensive navy and that is what Pakistan is doing. You may dream of destroyers and cruisers but Pakistan navy is building up a very nice defensive line with quite potent ships, 4x Type 54, 4x Milgem PN, ?6x Jinnah class.

With Milgem PN and Jinnah class I am sure the Pakistan shipbuilding industry will already have gained enough knowhow to go design and build on her own and I am sure Turkey will also help with destroyers (like TF2000) in due time.

Turkey never let friends alone.

Jinnah class is going to be the most advanced platform in PN.It would have been much better if they ordered more jinnah instead of type54a/p.It's good news for Pakistanis that PN is getting CAMM-ER instead of HQ16.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Anmdt

Jinnah class has more tonnage but what new capability does it bring on the table?
Just more cells of VLS? Better seakeeping? Sensors are basically the same.

Also, why is everyone moving towards CAMM-ER? just becuase it's lighter than ESSM?

 

[Nutuk]

CAMM-ER reaches 18km+ altitude, ESSM about half

 

[Anmdt]

@Anmdt

Jinnah class has more tonnage but what new capability does it bring on the table?
Just more cells of VLS? Better seakeeping? Sensors are basically the same.

Also, why is everyone moving towards CAMM-ER? just becuase it's lighter than ESSM?

ESSM is not leased to everyone, British offers Albatros literally to anyone. I think this is the major reason
+ Albatros has easier integration and maintenance compared to ESSM.

The new design is more flexible, ie. they can expand it further when they need larger platforms than what Ada-Class can handle.

 

[Bogeyman]

Jane's recently reported that the PN is interested in acquiring 2 Reis-class submarines from Turkey, for example.


@Cabatli_53 @Anmdt @Nilgiri @Waz

Can you give me links?

 

[Nutuk]

Interesting, although the missile is probaby very depleted and out of energy by the time it reaches there, that's still quite a high altitude,

Not very depleted! CAMM-ER is of new generation with dual pulse engine like the Hisar missile. Hence why it belongs to the more capable missiles