It was a mistake to leave Turkey out of Mideast gas club -- Shaffer

[Yoyo]

Turkey is starting to collect the fruits of its determined and principled stance in the East Med.

Here's a good read from The Times of Israel:

Mistake to leave Turkey out of new East Med gas club – international expert

Cooperation must include adversaries, says energy expert Brenda Shaffer, doubting that either East Med gas pipe to Europe or big Israeli role in Europe-bound Gulf oil will take off

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Yoyo]

Turkey has turned this dream of a pipeline into a pipe dream.

 

[Oublious]

this is nothing but crocodile tears....

 

[Xenon54]

this is nothing but crocodile tears....

Its called business, nobody said they love us, nor does anyone expect any love, nobody is this mess likes the other they just cooperate because they have to.
Its just that Turkey is a to big of a chunk to swallow for any of those in the eastern med so they hoped they would make a difference by acting together but Israel and Turkey will sooner or later restart the cooperation mark my words.

 

[Ravenman]

Israel is the only important neighbour in this area. If you cooperate with them, you will sea all international pressure dissappear.

No more attacks at our economy, no more Kurdish insurgency, no more anti-Turkish newspapers. And Washington will support you in every case.

It sounds like fantasy but it is true. This world is cut in two pieces: nations with Israel and nations against Israel.

 

[Yoyo]

Israel is the only important neighbour in this area. If you cooperate with them, you will sea all international pressure dissappear. No more attacks at our economy, no more Kurdish insurgency, no more anti-Turkish newspapers. And Washington will support you in every case.

It sounds like fantasy but it is true. This world is cut in two pieces: nations with Israel and nations against Israel.

Maybe not "attacks" per se, but certainly "controlling measures". Israel will never allow Turkey to develop as an independent economic and military power no matter how great our relations with it might become in time, and that's simply because they don't want a superpower Muslim neighbor that looks after its own interests. It's not rocket science. We don't want a powerful Israel or Greece or Armenia next door to us either.

That said, I'm old enough to remember the decades BEFORE our relations with Israel soured. Our economy was exiting one crisis just to enter another one. Corruption cases like ISKI and Susurluk were a daily occurance. We were begging the IMF all the time for loans. Our currency's annual devaluation rate was in quadruple digits. Life in Turkey was like shit and on top of all that, we had zero defence industry.

Being "friends" with Israel certainly isn't a magic solution for ANY of our problems. And if you think Kurdish Insurgency would end after improving our relations, you're just plain wrong my friend. PKK committed their first crimes in the early 80's, and their activities reached a peak in the 90's. E.g. the decades when Turkey was basically "best friends" with Israel.

You should go back and watch some old 32. Gün tapes.

 

[Ravenman]

Maybe not "attacks" per se, but certainly "controlling measures". Israel will never allow Turkey to develop as an independent economic and military power no matter how great our relations with it might become in time, and that's simply because they don't want a superpower Muslim neighbor that looks after its own interests. It's not rocket science. We don't want a powerful Israel or Greece or Armenia next door to us either.

That said, I'm old enough to remember the decades BEFORE our relations with Israel soured. Our economy was exiting one crisis just to enter another one. Corruption cases like ISKI and Susurluk were a daily occurance. We were begging the IMF all the time for loans. Our currency's annual devaluation rate was in quadruple digits. Life in Turkey was like shit and on top of all that, we had zero defence industry.

Being "friends" with Israel certainly isn't a magic solution for ANY of our problems. And if you think Kurdish Insurgency would end after improving our relations, you're just plain wrong my friend. PKK committed their first crimes in the early 80's, and their activities reached a peak in the 90's. E.g. the decades when Turkey was basically "best friends" with Israel.

You should go back and watch some old 32. Gün tapes.

Ofcourse Israel doesnt like a powerful independent moslim neighbour, but we are now. Turkey has taken a lot of crucial steps since 2010 and there is no way back. They know that very well. The only way to stop Turkey, is to put pressure on our economy with international incidents, domestic restlessness and war at multiple fronts. Thats the strategy they used to bring down Sultan Abdulhamid II and collapse the Empire.

Its 1914 again and we are getting more and more isolated by having beef with 5 nuclear powers (USA, Russia, France, Israel, India) and our neighborhood at the same time. There is not one day passing without a negative story about us in the international press. This has a devastating effect on our economy.

We must cut this pressure strategicly by (temporarily) restoring our relations with Israel and still go our way in Libya, Syria, Iraq, the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean.

We are not the same Turkey that bought sabotaged drones from Israel to bomb empty mountains. They cant fool us this time.

 

[Yoyo]

Ofcourse Israel doesnt like a powerful independent moslim neighbour, but we are now. Turkey has taken a lot of crucial steps since 2010 and there is no way back. They know that very well. The only way to stop Turkey, is to put pressure on our economy with international incidents, domestic restlessness and war at multiple fronts. Thats the strategy they used to bring down Sultan Abdulhamid II and collapse the Empire.

Its 1914 again and we are getting more and more isolated by having beef with 5 nuclear powers (USA, Russia, France, Israel, India) and our neighborhood at the same time. There is not one day passing without a negative story about us in the international press. This has a devastating effect on our economy.

We must cut this pressure strategicly by (temporarily) restoring our relations with Israel and still go our way in Libya, Syria, Iraq, the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean.

We are not the same Turkey that bought sabotaged drones from Israel to bomb empty mountains. They cant fool us time.

Okay, let us know when Israel at least stops supporting PKK/YPG terrorists against us or retracts its signature from the oil/gas agreements it's signed with the Greeks in violation of our continental shelf, and we might consider taking a friendly step as well.

You can't expect Turkey to go kiss Israel's ass while it's actively attacking us from all directions.

 

[Saithan]

I think you are both talking about the same thing, but have difficulty finding acceptance of eachothers POV.

1. Our economy is under pressure, and whether that is foreign interference or internal cause the only one to blame is the government.
2. We are alone atm, and that is again due to government politics, you might as well go back and look at every foreign step that led to this isolation.
3. Our defense industry is on the rise, but it had begun so ever since we were dissatisfied with the hardware we bought, especially the herons.
4. Wars on our borders just adds to the above mentioned issues.

I too remember buying ayran for around 5.000 Lira in the 80-90's, I remember receipt collections (my relatives did).

Now we have another challenge, we must bring our foreign debt to 0 if we don't work towards it then it can only escalate as that is what WARS do!

Strict budget discipline and reduce cost on unnecessary things. e.g. Halic in Istanbul turns murky so what it's natural occurance, do we need to waste money cleaning it if it has no enviromental affect ? I think CHP is investigating why it turns murky, and that is the right way to deal with issues.

Prioritize investments and don't try to do everything at once, and do not compromise on our defence industry, especially not TN.
Just my opinion.

 

[Ryder]

I think you are both talking about the same thing, but have difficulty finding acceptance of eachothers POV.

1. Our economy is under pressure, and whether that is foreign interference or internal cause the only one to blame is the government.
2. We are alone atm, and that is again due to government politics, you might as well go back and look at every foreign step that led to this isolation.
3. Our defense industry is on the rise, but it had begun so ever since we were dissatisfied with the hardware we bought, especially the herons.
4. Wars on our borders just adds to the above mentioned issues.

I too remember buying ayran for around 5.000 Lira in the 80-90's, I remember receipt collections (my relatives did).

Now we have another challenge, we must bring our foreign debt to 0 if we don't work towards it then it can only escalate as that is what WARS do!

Strict budget discipline and reduce cost on unnecessary things. e.g. Halic in Istanbul turns murky so what it's natural occurance, do we need to waste money cleaning it if it has no enviromental affect ? I think CHP is investigating why it turns murky, and that is the right way to deal with issues.

Prioritize investments and don't try to do everything at once, and do not compromise on our defence industry, especially not TN.
Just my opinion.

Im going to be honest I defended Berat Albayrak despite him being Tayyips son in law. Im like okay let him do his job and I will decide.

I feel like he has to leave to be honest and somebody competent to take control. His giving no confidence and even said I dont care about the exchange rate pretty pathetic and petty.

 

[Saithan]

I wonder if Albayrak is related to the Albayrak Group that owns Tümosan, that operates harbour in Somalia...

 

[Zafer]

Turkey's cooperation with Israel is only possible when Israel gives up on their expansionist ambitions. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Israel has always been the only enemy of Turkey in the past couple of centuries. Even when the relations were close it only benefited Israel and undermined Turkish interests. It has always been a relation that weakened Turkey. Turkey which didn't have any strength to threaten anyone was of course not worthy of any enmity. That same Turkey was already invaded by Israel. Other nations' objections are again because of Israel. The situation has been like this even before Israel was a thing.

The only way we can stop Israel's expansionist ambitions is to match their tech level, period.

 

[Saithan]

Turkey's cooperation with Israel is only possible when Israel gives up on their expansionist ambitions. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Israel has always been the only enemy of Turkey in the past couple of centuries. Even when the relations were close it only benefited Israel and undermined Turkish interests. It has always been a relation that weakened Turkey. Turkey which didn't have any strength to threaten anyone was of course not worthy of any enmity. That same Turkey was already invaded by Israel. Other nations' objections are again because of Israel. The situation has been like this even before Israel was a thing.

The only way we can stop Israel's expansionist ambitions is to match their tech level, period.

I couldn't agree more, but I would turn it around and say, we don't need to blatantly support the arabs when they're not even working in unison.

The bad vibe we have with the arabs is partly what is leading to the arabs using this opportunity to make peace with Israel.

They are just waiting for a chance to abandon Palestine, and that is what Turkey/Erdogan has given them. It started due to the harsh rhetorics.

 

[Ryder]

I couldn't agree more, but I would turn it around and say, we don't need to blatantly support the arabs when they're not even working in unison.

The bad vibe we have with the arabs is partly what is leading to the arabs using this opportunity to make peace with Israel.

They are just waiting for a chance to abandon Palestine, and that is what Turkey/Erdogan has given them. It started due to the harsh rhetorics.

Arabs are tribal their whole politics is tribal in otherwise it makes no sense in the modern world.

 

[Combat-Master]

Turkey has turned this dream of a pipeline into a pipe dream.

View attachment 2253

It was a pipe dream from the start, who was going to foot the bill for the pipe, no one knew.. Turkey just nailed

 

[Combat-Master]

Arabs are tribal their whole politics is tribal in otherwise it makes no sense in the modern world.

Politics in itself is tribal my friend, tribes will not go extinct

 

[Ryder]

Politics in itself is tribal my friend, tribes will not go extinct

Indeed

 

[Yoyo]

Turkey's cooperation with Israel is only possible when Israel gives up on their expansionist ambitions. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Israel has always been the only enemy of Turkey in the past couple of centuries. Even when the relations were close it only benefited Israel and undermined Turkish interests. It has always been a relation that weakened Turkey. Turkey which didn't have any strength to threaten anyone was of course not worthy of any enmity. That same Turkey was already invaded by Israel. Other nations' objections are again because of Israel. The situation has been like this even before Israel was a thing.

The only way we can stop Israel's expansionist ambitions is to match their tech level, period.

That's pretty much spot on.

That said, I would be on board with calling Israel a "friend" just for the sake of giving our relations a positive PR spin in Washington. That's what the Israelis do and just because we're calling each other friends doesn't mean we're not actively trying to destroy each other. Afterall, the Israelis hurt the ones they call "friends" the most (e.g. the Arabs). It gives their warcrimes (killing Palestinians, keeping Gaza a prison) a positive appeal around the world.

Like the saying goes: Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.