GÖKDENİZ ER Point Defence Missile System

[Turko]

Gökdeniz ER deserves its own thread.

I look forward to seeing real Gökdeniz ER platform which is much more than LEVENT platform.

Comparing Gökdeniz with Levent , i would say it's totally real air defense system not just a SUNGUR based simple platform.

Gökdeniz ER most likely will use IIR guided A2A missiles which have datalink capacity.

So Gökdeniz ER would give much more air defense capacity against UAVs, Fighters, Supersonic Cruise Missiles.

İt will be equaliant of CAMM but horizantal launchers. So the system could be applied current warships with limited spaces for VLS.

our ADA class have just rear RIM-116 with 8km range and 4 km altitude while ships are very open to threats.

Currently Turkish defence industry doesn't have compact VLS as same as CAMM . So with very cheap and simple construction , we could apply the system on ADA class as well as İstif Class.

Also we are planning to use SİPERs in I-Class which has limited VLS cells.

Additional 2 x11 missiles would transform them real beast.


İmagine Ada Class and İ-Class have two separated Gökdeniz launchers which will cover 360 degree against multiple attacks from different sides.

 

[Turko]

Ada and Istanbul class with a few minor restorations could have left and right sided top launchers. Two launchers can be placed on the captain's bridge top of the ship.

I will have to show my Photoshop proficiency.

 

[Saithan]

I think platforms the size of OPV and upwards (65m+) would be better for such a system. Because I imagine the size and weight would take up a lot of space (I imagine it to be as big or bigger than Levent).

If it's smaller and has fewer, let's say just like sungur system and ciws like STAMP then it could be viable, but size alone isn't enough it would need it's on radar and sensor and CMS etc.

 

[Combat-Master]

Conceptually it's a nice idea, but practically wouldn't there be limitations?

 

[Turko]

isn't enough it would need it's on radar and sensor and CMS etc.

Every Gökdeniz ER platform has own fixed 4 radars , however the Ada Class have own search radar so i think it can work with main radars.

size and weight would take up a lot of space (I imagine it to be as big or bigger than Levent).

Not much more than RAM. 2 Gökdeniz ER launchers could be fit top of the bridge.

wouldn't there be limitations?

I'm not an engineer, let's engineers speak .

İn my humble opinion there might be just fire hazard which is very easy to solve.

Look at Korean frigate which has top mounted RAM. As you can see it's not a problem launching missiles just next to radars and sensors.

I think Gökdeniz ER much lighter than RAM as it has 11 missiles. ASELSAN must have used last gen compact and light mechanic parts.
İt's not impossible to fit 2 launchers.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Gokdeniz-ER is an eleven missile system, similar to Sea-Ram.
Sea-Ram has stand alone capability. It can be utilised in all sorts of different classes of ships. In it’s latest form it uses the RAM block two missiles.

IDEF 2021: Turkish companies unveil indigenous RAM replacements - Naval News

The point defense missile systems (PDMS) developed by Turkey's two leading defense companies, Aselsan and Roketsan, were on display at the International Defense Exhibition and Fair (IDEF 21) in Istanbul, which took place between August 17 and 20.

www.navalnews.com

However Roketsan’s Levent is more akin to RAM system with block 2 missiles. It will be more potent and with longer ranges containing 21 missiles.

Roketsan'dan LEVENT Yakın Hava Savunma Sistemi Müjdesi

Roketsan, LEVENT Yakın Hava Savunma Sistemi'ni geliştirme çalışmalarına başladığını açıkladı. LEVENT Sistemi, ilk kez IDEF'21 esnasında görücüye çıktı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

IDEF 2021: Turkish companies unveil indigenous RAM replacements - Naval News

The point defense missile systems (PDMS) developed by Turkey's two leading defense companies, Aselsan and Roketsan, were on display at the International Defense Exhibition and Fair (IDEF 21) in Istanbul, which took place between August 17 and 20.

www.navalnews.com

So as I see it we have a Sea-Ram equivalent in the form of Gokdeniz-ER. And a RAM system in the form of Levent of Roketsan.
If we are going for missiles similar to Ram block 2, then the operational altitude and the range of these systems will be greatly enhanced. We may expect 8km+ and 10km+ respectively.

RAM Block 2

	RIM-116A/B RAM	RAM Block 2
Target's Max Altitude (meter)	6,100	8,100
Target's Min Altitude (meter)	1.5	1.5
Warhead (kilogram)	9.1	11
Weight (kilogram)	74.4	88.2

 

[Turko]

Gokdeniz-ER is an eleven missile system, similar to Sea-Ram.
Sea-Ram has stand alone capability. It can be utilised in all sorts of different classes of ships. In it’s latest form it uses the RAM block two missiles.

IDEF 2021: Turkish companies unveil indigenous RAM replacements - Naval News

The point defense missile systems (PDMS) developed by Turkey's two leading defense companies, Aselsan and Roketsan, were on display at the International Defense Exhibition and Fair (IDEF 21) in Istanbul, which took place between August 17 and 20.

www.navalnews.com

However Roketsan’s Levent is more akin to RAM system with block 2 missiles. It will be more potent and with longer ranges containing 21 missiles.

Roketsan'dan LEVENT Yakın Hava Savunma Sistemi Müjdesi

Roketsan, LEVENT Yakın Hava Savunma Sistemi'ni geliştirme çalışmalarına başladığını açıkladı. LEVENT Sistemi, ilk kez IDEF'21 esnasında görücüye çıktı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

IDEF 2021: Turkish companies unveil indigenous RAM replacements - Naval News

The point defense missile systems (PDMS) developed by Turkey's two leading defense companies, Aselsan and Roketsan, were on display at the International Defense Exhibition and Fair (IDEF 21) in Istanbul, which took place between August 17 and 20.

www.navalnews.com

So as I see it we have a Sea-Ram equivalent in the form of Gokdeniz-ER. And a RAM system in the form of Levent of Roketsan.
If we are going for missiles similar to Ram block 2, then the operational altitude and the range of these systems will be greatly enhanced. We may expect 8km+ and 10km+ respectively.

RAM Block 2

	RIM-116A/B RAM	RAM Block 2
Target's Max Altitude (meter)	6,100	8,100
Target's Min Altitude (meter)	1.5	1.5
Warhead (kilogram)	9.1	11
Weight (kilogram)	74.4	88.2

According to producers catalog Block 2 has just range of 10km. I don't think it can reach 8km altitude.

CAMM barely reaches those numbers.

Gökdeniz ER much more than RIM-116 block2 . İ would say it's range close to CAMM.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mbda-deutschland.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/RAM-e-18.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi6g_K9gov0AhUF57sIHYELAHEQFnoECHwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw155eeTezpyAMyUk0H7-v8r

 

[Yasar_TR]

I don't think it can reach 8km altitude.

Even though there are no clear cut effective altitude figures for Block 2 version, it is only logical to expect 8+km altitude for a missile that outperforms it’s block 1 version by over 1.5 times in effective intercept range. Block 2 can engage a threat that is 20+ km away and eliminate it at 10km.
Block 2 is larger, longer, faster and has an improved dual pulse rocket motor. I. Sunnetci has given a lot of info on it.

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Ship Self-Defence Weapon System & RIM-116C Block II Missile

by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ Raytheon Missile Systems and the RAM-System GmbH (RAMSYS), consortium of Diehl BGT and MBDA Deutschland GmbH in Germany, are prime contractors and co-operating partners for the RAM Program. RAMSYS and Raytheon Missile Systems are continuing to deliver the latest Block II...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Turko]

Even though there are no clear cut effective altitude figures for Block 2 version, it is only logical to expect 8+km altitude for a missile that outperforms it’s block 1 version by over 1.5 times in effective intercept range. Block 2 can engage a threat that is 20+ km away and eliminate it at 10km.
Block 2 is larger, longer, faster and has an improved dual pulse rocket motor. I. Sunnetci has given a lot of info on it.

RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Ship Self-Defence Weapon System & RIM-116C Block II Missile

by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ Raytheon Missile Systems and the RAM-System GmbH (RAMSYS), consortium of Diehl BGT and MBDA Deutschland GmbH in Germany, are prime contractors and co-operating partners for the RAM Program. RAMSYS and Raytheon Missile Systems are continuing to deliver the latest Block II...

www.defenceturkey.com

Let's forget about RIM-116 . Since we have mighty Gökdeniz ER , we shouldn't care about it no more)

Let's guess how many km range and altitude our system could reach?

20 km range and 8km would be ?

 

[Anmdt]

View attachment 35272
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View attachment 35274

Gökdeniz ER deserves its own thread.

I look forward to seeing real Gökdeniz ER platform which is much more than LEVENT platform.

Comparing Gökdeniz with Levent , i would say it's totally real air defense system not just a SUNGUR based simple platform.

Gökdeniz ER most likely will use IIR guided A2A missiles which have datalink capacity.

So Gökdeniz ER would give much more air defense capacity against UAVs, Fighters, Supersonic Cruise Missiles.

İt will be equaliant of CAMM but horizantal launchers. So the system could be applied current warships with limited spaces for VLS.

our ADA class have just rear RIM-116 with 8km range and 4 km altitude while ships are very open to threats.

Currently Turkish defence industry doesn't have compact VLS as same as CAMM . So with very cheap and simple construction , we could apply the system on ADA class as well as İstif Class.

Also we are planning to use SİPERs in I-Class which has limited VLS cells.

Additional 2 x11 missiles would transform them real beast.


İmagine Ada Class and İ-Class have two separated Gökdeniz launchers which will cover 360 degree against multiple attacks from different sides.

Also Navy wants a quadpackable missile even TF-2000s mission profile depends on this, it is the period for the story, Roketsan or anybody else has to make it .

So what i would like on I-Class would be 2 Nazar-L and 1 Gokdeniz + 1 Phalanx but those will be hard to fit.

We need gokdeniz ER or Levent on FAC and patrol boat. Aselsan Tubitak and Roketsan should join forces here to introduce a standalone system that can launch sungur-N and ram like missile with options in size (like 11 or 16 or 21).

Patrol boats may use mixed sungur-N and ciws missile, FACs may use only ciws missile etc.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let's forget about RIM-116 . Since we have mighty Gökdeniz ER , we shouldn't care about it no more)

Let's guess how many km range and altitude our system could reach?

20 km range and 8km would be ?

I agree! But have you read the last statement of I Sunnetci? The last two corvettes may have been commissioned without air defence missiles.
We do need these indigenously produced Point Defence weapons. Beauty of these will be the fact that they are not known or recognised weapons. Hence any weapon trying to thwart it, won’t be readily have the means to do so.

 

[Anmdt]

I agree! But have you read the last statement of I Sunnetci? The last two corvettes may have been commissioned without air defence missiles.
We do need these indigenously produced Point Defence weapons. Beauty of these will be the fact that they are not known or recognised weapons. Hence any weapon trying to thwart it, won’t be readily have the means to do so.

They have the missiles they may not have the latest block or sufficient number of spares.
These kind of rumors and information leaks are highly dangerous and would be classified under intelligence leak. Literally, this information helps for nothing forward.
Like we all know TN didnt get the latest block of RAM, but those corvettes had the missiles.

 

[Saithan]

with Levent, Gökdeniz ER, and Sungur I would be quite happy if Tn and TCG vessels could be fitted with these as I imagine that any decent size patrol vessel (let's just say 50+tonnage) could be fittet with one or another or both.

I would prefer that TCG got Dearsan OPV-65 type and fitted with Gökdeniz ER additionally.

 

[Khagan1923]

They have the missiles they may not have the latest block or sufficient number of spares.
These kind of rumors and information leaks are highly dangerous and would be classified under intelligence leak. Literally, this information helps for nothing forward.
Like we all know TN didnt get the latest block of RAM, but those corvettes had the missiles.

Imagine being so petty and pathetic you block the sale of a Point Defence missile. Something solely Defensive which if even wanted couldn’t use offensively.

Man I can’t wait until reach a level in which we can comfortably sever ties with the US and make them look like this once they realize any meaningful reach they had is gone.

 

[Turko]

Let's remember Turkish IIR A2A missile that possible element of Gökdeniz ER.

Notice that According to Anadolu Agency: Bozdoğan weights 140 kg whereas RIM-116 weights 74kg and CAMM weights 100kg.

Comparing Bozdoğan with Sidewinder again Aim -9 weights 85kg.

So Bozdoğan is really heavy missile.

 

[Agha Sher]

Let's remember Turkish IIR A2A missile that possible element of Gökdeniz ER.

Notice that According to Anadolu Agency: Bozdoğan weights 140 kg whereas RIM-116 weights 74kg and CAMM weights 100kg.

Comparing Bozdoğan with Sidewinder again Aim -9 weights 85kg.

So Bozdoğan is really heavy missile.

View attachment 35341
View attachment 35347
View attachment 35334
View attachment 35339
View attachment 35340

Why is it so heavy? lack of efficient propellant?

 

[Turko]

Why is it so heavy? lack of efficient propellant?

İt's not official dimensions, Anadolu Agency might have been misinformed.

İ don't think Roketsan lacks of propellant technology.

 

[Turko]

@Anmdt Dear why does German Navy love RAM so much?

They haven't put their Millennium CIWS onto their frigates.

Another interesting thing is they replaced VLS with frontal RAM for F125 Baden-Württemberg class.

Last question, is vertical exit of exhaust gas more reliable? Alman fırkateyn ve korvetlerinde baca yerinden tasarruf için mi egzoz çıkışı denize veriliyor?


Look at the examples of dual RAM.
IMHO RAM system is efficient when it is used dually.

Baden-Württemberg class

Sachsen Class

Brandenburg-class frigate​

Bremen Class

K130 Braunschweig class Corvettes

So what should we assume? Need to double Gökdeniz ER!

 

[Turko]

İf naval constructors could add such helicopter pist , i don't accept excuses:" there is no place on current warships for dual Gökdeniz ER". )))

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Anmdt Dear why does German Navy love RAM so much?

They haven't put their Millennium CIWS onto their frigates.

Another interesting thing is they replaced VLS with frontal RAM for F125 Baden-Württemberg class.

Last question, is vertical exit of exhaust gas more reliable? Alman fırkateyn ve korvetlerinde baca yerinden tasarruf için mi egzoz çıkışı denize veriliyor?


Look at the examples of dual RAM.
IMHO RAM system is efficient when it is used dually.

Baden-Württemberg class

View attachment 35404


Sachsen Class
View attachment 35405

Brandenburg-class frigate​

View attachment 35406
Bremen Class

View attachment 35407

K130 Braunschweig class Corvettes

View attachment 35408


So what should we assume? Need to double Gökdeniz ER!

When you have money you can do anything.
21 missiles costing nearly a million dollar each , plus the system times 2 , is a good amount of investment on each ship. Never mind the spares!
Hopefully with the new Levent and Gokdeniz ER , local production costs will not be too prohibitive.
GokdenizER will be more suitable for smaller platforms as it is more like SeaRam with 11 missiles. But larger platforms would need Levent.