TR Naval Programs

[Knowledgeseeker]

I got my coffee and now watching how some accounts in twitter and youtube will be discussing this for next 2 days.

Wish the news was true The moroccan navy have a far way to go.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Believe me it is much better if they order a vessel fresh for themselves instead of getting a ship built and customized for another customer. You will never be happy with someone else's solution and it will always be missing one leg and arm. Telling this apart from the fact that, Turkish Navy is not even close, or crossing it from their mind to sell TCG Anadolu.

You are right. Even if we got the anadolu, we still would have huge holes to cover. I hope morocco can go for some ada class corvettes. How would you btw compare the sigma corvette with ada ?

 

[Anmdt]

You are right. Even if we got the anadolu, we still would have huge holes to cover. I hope morocco can go for some ada class corvettes. How would you btw compare the sigma corvette with ada ?

Sigma 10514 and Ada-Class is quite close on certain aspects. Their mission profile in overall is close.

Ada-Class might be seen as lacking a VLS, which is the primary one commonly pointed by people; but it is also known a short-length VLS can be fitted with ease**. Ada-Class' mast is made to be equipped with IRST / ED / EA when needed while i doubt if Sigma is made that way from the beginning.

Another aspect that differs them; Ada-Class is made to serve Turkish Navy with projection were considered in the design and room left to grow ,nowadays most of the navies should keep in mind that the solutions to emerge in 10 years are critical, while Damen customizes the sigma class as per the user requests with a tight fit and the upgrade won't be easy.

**(Ukraine Ada-Class is fitting 8 (or 16) VL-MICA without much trouble on the existing design and it is known to be equipped with 12-16 cells VL-MICA or CAMM-ER in their own canisters without altering the design as considered for Pakistani Navy in the beginning)

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Sigma 10514 and Ada-Class is quite close on certain aspects. Their mission profile in overall is close.

Ada-Class might be seen as lacking a VLS, which is the primary one commonly pointed by people; but it is also known a short-length VLS can be fitted with ease**. Ada-Class' mast is made to be equipped with IRST / ED / EA when needed while i doubt if Sigma is made that way from the beginning.

Another aspect that differs them; Ada-Class is made to serve Turkish Navy with projection were considered in the design and room left to grow ,nowadays most of the navies should keep in mind that the solutions to emerge in 10 years are critical, while Damen customizes the sigma class as per the user requests with a tight fit and the upgrade won't be easy.

**(Ukraine Ada-Class is fitting 8 (or 16) VL-MICA without much trouble on the existing design and it is known to be equipped with 12-16 cells VL-MICA or CAMM-ER in their own canisters without altering the design as considered for Pakistani Navy in the beginning)

I dont know alot about ships, but is it big difference between the sigma 10513 and sigma 9813? If i remember right morocco ordered 2 sigma 9813, and one 10513 for 1.2 billion usd. Do you know if the ada class will be more expensive then its 250 million usd price tag per unit after the indigenous weapon system, and controll systems when they are ready. Turkey sold to pakistan and ukraine ada for 250 without no weapon systems?

 

[Anmdt]

I dont know alot about ships, but is it big difference between the sigma 10513 and sigma 9813? If i remember right morocco ordered 2 sigma 9813, and one 10513 for 1.2 billion usd. Do you know if the ada class will be more expensive then its 250 million usd price tag per unit after the indigenous weapon system, and controll systems when they are ready. Turkey sold to pakistan and ukraine ada for 250 without no weapon systems?

The PN Milgem was 3000 tonnes, and including ToT, training of Pakistani engineers, know-how transfer and IP rights for 4 hulls, the price tag was $1.5B. Holding IP rights means that KS&EW holds blue prints and may conduct maintenance, repair on their own, as well produce additional hulls, modify it or sell it solely on their own (legally).

The Ukranian Ada class with ED and EA capability, 8/16 MICA, Gokdeniz CIWS ( on top of the basic ESM and mediocre radar ) will be about &250-270 millions, the configuration is similar to 10514, but offers more on electronics and other add-on equipments with a better propulsion system.

It all depends on the equipment, especially the electronics. I don't know what was the electronics that were delivered to Moroccan Navy.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

The PN Milgem was 3000 tonnes, and including ToT, training of Pakistani engineers, know-how transfer and IP rights for 4 hulls, the price tag was $1.5B. Holding IP rights means that KS&EW holds blue prints and may conduct maintenance, repair on their own, as well produce additional hulls, modify it or sell it solely on their own (legally).

The Ukranian Ada class with ED and EA capability, 8/16 MICA, Gokdeniz CIWS ( on top of the basic ESM and mediocre radar ) will be about &250-270 millions, the configuration is similar to 10514, but offers more on electronics and other add-on equipments with a better propulsion system.

It all depends on the equipment, especially the electronics. I don't know what was the electronics that were delivered to Moroccan Navy.

I read this:
Electronic systems include a Smart-S Mk2 surveillance radar, a LIROD Mk 2 tracking radar, a Thales Kingklip sonar system, an IFF system, an integrated communication system comprising external communication system and FOCON internal communication subsystem, two target designation sights, a VIGILE ESM system, a SCORPION ECM system and an integrated navigation system.

when it comes to the weapon systems we got the 76 mm oto melara, vertical mica and the anti ship exocet missile system.

I hope morocco and turkey can get closer in defence deals beyond the drone purchases. I would like to see some ada class frigates with indigenous electronic, and weapon systems.

 

[Anmdt]

I read this:
Electronic systems include a Smart-S Mk2 surveillance radar, a LIROD Mk 2 tracking radar, a Thales Kingklip sonar system, an IFF system, an integrated communication system comprising external communication system and FOCON internal communication subsystem, two target designation sights, a VIGILE ESM system, a SCORPION ECM system and an integrated navigation system.

when it comes to the weapon systems we got the 76 mm oto melara, vertical mica and the anti ship exocet missile system.

I hope morocco and turkey can get closer in defence deals beyond the drone purchases. I would like to see some ada class frigates with indigenous electronic, and weapon systems.

1.2 Billion was for 2 corvette and 1 frigate, then definitely it should include 10 years of maintenance.

The equipment looks similar to what Ada class had back then (in the time of the bidding)
Plus Ada has 21 RAM + Spares, with launcher, easily costs as much as 12 or 16 + MICA + 1 or 2 Phalanx.
It is hard to compare prices without the details but i can guarantee Ada class was cheaper while offering more.
Let's see if the contact with TB2 and others will project onto Naval platforms.

 

[Lool]

I believe the US has pretty much cut off Turkey and they're just making use of what we're allowing them to use at this stage. All the while they're building a 2nd solution so to speak. They're bunking up pretty much and preparing for eventualities where they'll have to leave Incirlik.

GC is likely too exposed as a candidate for an airbase for the US. So that kinda leaves GC. And they'll need to enforce their EEZ to cut off Turkey from the Atlantic.

Something that would have happened sooner or later
The US doesnt want a strong Turkey

What the US wants is a weak Turkey and Greece so that the US and other Western superpowers can easily control them from the shadows, sell weapons as a means to earn money from both of them, ensure that both of them are at each other's throat yet cant fight as the power balance is nearly equal, and above all, being a canoon fodder against Russia

When Turkey started to become stronger and the delicate balance that the West imposed between Greece and Turkey broke, the US started to evaluate which ally to help and they probably picked Greece as they are too weak, too easily controlled, and are able to earn loads of bucks from them

Greece rn may become the top country in terms of foreign bases in its soil. Like lool, dignity thrown in the garbage bin

 

[Anmdt]

TTHB (TTFAC, TN-FAC also known as NG-FPB) has evolved into a new stage.

STM's MPAC solution was an interim output from the evaluation of the design. The latest design now differs from MPAC, as per certain requests of the Turkish Navy. The design keeps evolving to satisfy the requirements.

STM, thanks to the design contract of TTHB has gained an experience and may offer at least 3 + 1 different matured designs to different customers;

FAC 55 a true FAC, (conceptual design completed, contract design up to 60%, on hold)

MPAC nearing to be a corvette, (conceptual design completed, contract design up to 80%, on hold)

Final TTHB almost a corvette, (conceptual design completed, contract design will be 100%, active status)

FPC corvette (800+ to 1000+ tonnes), (conceptual design completed, contract design expected to begin upon request)

 

[Saithan]

TTHB (TTFAC, TN-FAC also known as NG-FPB) has evolved into a new stage.

STM's MPAC solution was an interim output from the evaluation of the design. The latest design now differs from MPAC, as per certain requests of the Turkish Navy. The design keeps evolving to satisfy the requirements.

STM, thanks to the design contract of TTHB has gained an experience and may offer at least 3 + 1 different matured designs to different customers;

FAC 55 a true FAC, (conceptual design completed, contract design up to 60%, on hold)

MPAC nearing to be a corvette, (conceptual design completed, contract design up to 80%, on hold)

Final TTHB almost a corvette, (conceptual design completed, contract design will be 100%, active status)

FPC corvette (800+ to 1000+ tonnes), (conceptual design completed, contract design expected to begin upon request)

Will TCG be able to get any of these design, and would they serve their purpose.

I heard that TCG is having difficulty getting even 800+ tonnage vessels and have problems finding crews and such (don't know if it's true).

 

[Anmdt]

Will TCG be able to get any of these design, and would they serve their purpose.

I heard that TCG is having difficulty getting even 800+ tonnage vessels and have problems finding crews and such (don't know if it's true).

These are all FAC oriented designs. I guess TCG will be better with the CG designs displayed by STM in IDEF or the YTKBs, ARES CG designs etc.

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1476142823460253696

First layer of painting it done, second layer is on the way and will be followed by third and fourth (and one more for the submerged part).

 

[Zafer]

Making a better ship with today's requirements will delay owning a drone mothership like a year or so, right, as it will not be the first time. So why not, sell it already.

 

[Saithan]

See even Zafer has realized that AKP has messed up the economy and wants to cash in by selling Naval assets.

 

[kenny]

This is a joke". It's a tradition of spain like the April Fools' joke.

 

[Zafer]

See even Zafer has realized that AKP has messed up the economy and wants to cash in by selling Naval assets.

You don't see where I am going; given the chance we should get rid of the old ship and have a ship that is up to the latest requirements. We have the drone planes now and we have a lot of operational and design flexibility for a mothership. It is highly likely that we can do away with an amphibious capable ship now.

 

[Zafer]

Good thing we haven't been in a full blown war in the times past as our navy's processes are extra slow beyond reason. This is probably because we lacked many components that goes into building the platforms and the engineers are bound with slow timelines. This situation need to be remedied in a short span of time and an industry that comes up fast with solutions and not with excuses must be established. Our shipbuilding industry must take clues from our aviation industry and start recruiting brilliant minds before shit hits the fan.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Mr Alper Köse;

"We were going to use the US made Mk 41 as the vertical launch system on the MİLGEM 5th ship. However, no export permit was issued. The strange thing is, they never said they don't give, and they kept it busy. In addition, even if an export permit is issued, sometimes they still do not give it. We agreed with ROKETSAN and rearranged the contract so that the vertical launch system would be made by ROKETSAN. Doing this will give us a huge added value. Because we will not use the developed system only on I-class frigates, we will now have our own solution for all our ships that require a vertical launch system.

Another example is Phalanx and SeaRAM, which are close air defense systems commonly used on our ships. However, ASELSAN developed the Phalanx equivalent GÖKDENİZ close air defense system. Also; ASELSAN, TÜBİTAK and ROKETSAN are developing the SeaRAM equivalent Point Air Defense Systems. We are no longer dependent on them.

They also caused trouble in HARPOON, but the ATMACA with better features was made. The production activities of HİSAR, the equivalent of ESSM (Evolve Sea Sparrow Missile), continue. The country from which the fire control radar was supplied had not yet imposed an embargo, but we were waiting. For this reason, we started our work without waiting for the embargo. As a result, ASELSAN developed its own Fire Control Radar AKREP-D. Then came the embargo.

With the support of the Naval Forces, these systems are being developed and integration studies are carried out so that they can also be used on our ships. The illumination radar and torpedo tube system are also made by ASELSAN. AKYA is being developed by ROKETSAN. Torpedo launch Systems are also made by ASELSAN. War management systems are a very critical system that is the brain of the submarine or ship in terms of war management. It detects where threats come from, determines the nature and type of threats, and decides how to respond to each threat, in order of priority. This system was developed by the Naval Forces Command Research Center Command (ARMERKOM) and HAVELSAN in our country. They are adapted and integrated into our ships according to their configuration. In addition, this system is also exported. In addition, since we do not buy the battle management system from outside, we do not buy consoles, we do it ourselves domestically and nationally. Consoles are made by YALTES and AYESAŞ. As a result, the sub-industry related to a developed system or product is also developing. In addition, we can produce other products with the technologies we have developed. For example, ASELSAN has developed the LPI navigation radar, which works with very low power and does not show itself, with its radar technologies.

We can manufacture our propellers, shaft systems and many mechanical systems in GÜRDESAN. We used to buy WAIS Military ship identification system from abroad, now I-Marine company is doing it. IFF, communication systems, data links are systems that are widely used and these were the systems we always supplied from abroad. Today, however, these systems are developed and produced by our own companies, nationally and locally.

Another system under development is the laser gun. It is being developed separately by ASELSAN, METEKSAN DEFENSE and TUBITAK. When the development of the laser weapon is completed, it will take its place among the exported products."

 

[Anmdt]

TAIS in last years has recruited complete design and marketing teams leaded by experienced people and as well as benefiting from the experience of the consortium partners (Sedef, Anadolu and Sefine Shipyards). The team now is capable of assessing needs of customers, creating niche and sound solutions as required.

ASFAT is about to launch a program for last-year students of Naval architecture department, to allow them to work part-time or via long internship. As well as another program to support freshly graduated engineers through a fast-track 6 months to 1 year training session to prepare them for field or the office, according to their designation from recruitment.

 

[Zafer]

Mr Alper Köse;

"We were going to use the US made Mk 41 as the vertical launch system on the MİLGEM 5th ship. However, no export permit was issued. The strange thing is, they never said they don't give, and they kept it busy. In addition, even if an export permit is issued, sometimes they still do not give it. We agreed with ROKETSAN and rearranged the contract so that the vertical launch system would be made by ROKETSAN. Doing this will give us a huge added value. Because we will not use the developed system only on I-class frigates, we will now have our own solution for all our ships that require a vertical launch system.

Another example is Phalanx and SeaRAM, which are close air defense systems commonly used on our ships. However, ASELSAN developed the Phalanx equivalent GÖKDENİZ close air defense system. Also; ASELSAN, TÜBİTAK and ROKETSAN are developing the SeaRAM equivalent Point Air Defense Systems. We are no longer dependent on them.

They also caused trouble in HARPOON, but the ATMACA with better features was made. The production activities of HİSAR, the equivalent of ESSM (Evolve Sea Sparrow Missile), continue. The country from which the fire control radar was supplied had not yet imposed an embargo, but we were waiting. For this reason, we started our work without waiting for the embargo. As a result, ASELSAN developed its own Fire Control Radar AKREP-D. Then came the embargo.

With the support of the Naval Forces, these systems are being developed and integration studies are carried out so that they can also be used on our ships. The illumination radar and torpedo tube system are also made by ASELSAN. AKYA is being developed by ROKETSAN. Torpedo launch Systems are also made by ASELSAN. War management systems are a very critical system that is the brain of the submarine or ship in terms of war management. It detects where threats come from, determines the nature and type of threats, and decides how to respond to each threat, in order of priority. This system was developed by the Naval Forces Command Research Center Command (ARMERKOM) and HAVELSAN in our country. They are adapted and integrated into our ships according to their configuration. In addition, this system is also exported. In addition, since we do not buy the battle management system from outside, we do not buy consoles, we do it ourselves domestically and nationally. Consoles are made by YALTES and AYESAŞ. As a result, the sub-industry related to a developed system or product is also developing. In addition, we can produce other products with the technologies we have developed. For example, ASELSAN has developed the LPI navigation radar, which works with very low power and does not show itself, with its radar technologies.

We can manufacture our propellers, shaft systems and many mechanical systems in GÜRDESAN. We used to buy WAIS Military ship identification system from abroad, now I-Marine company is doing it. IFF, communication systems, data links are systems that are widely used and these were the systems we always supplied from abroad. Today, however, these systems are developed and produced by our own companies, nationally and locally.

Another system under development is the laser gun. It is being developed separately by ASELSAN, METEKSAN DEFENSE and TUBITAK. When the development of the laser weapon is completed, it will take its place among the exported products."

We will start exporting laser guns.
Impossible dreams of the past are realities of today.