Navy OUTGOING PAKISTAN NAVY CHIEF SETS MASSIVE 50-SHIP FLEET VISION

[Paro]

It's gonna take a LOT of potatoes and rice to pay for a 50 ship navy, methinks.

99 years lease of a countries prime land for 50 ships that can be manufactured in a decade, one national highway, few billion military aid a year and once a while lip service . it’s a good deal for the Chinese.

 

[VCheng]

99 years lease of a countries prime land for 50 ships that can be manufactured in a decade, one national highway, few billion military aid a year and once a while lip service . it’s a good deal for the Chinese.

Possible. But unlikely.

 

[Captain_Azeri_76]

In fact they have started contract farming in Ethiopia and Nigeria already as a poc since 2102. Do you remember the documents
Leaked about cepc also mentioned farmland.

The correct term for that is "land-grabbing"

 

[Nilgiri]

This is quite confusing, the published image was presented as Jinnah Class frigate, however ASFAT ,the shipyard states that 4 of the PN Milgem is under construction (2 in Turkey, 2 in Pakistan). So either there are total of 4 ships as Jinnah + PN Milgem ,or there is only 4 ships currently approved which is all Jinnah, which is actually PN Milgem.
Note:
Apparently, the 4 ships which is contracted for now is called PN Milgem and it is mentioned as such in documents. I was rather thinking this "PN Milgem" was the Jinnah class, but it was not.

Hmmm, that's confusing.

The admiral seems to confirm in addition to 4 Ada (built as frigates with VLS etc)..... there will be a "5th" which will be the first of the jinnah class (you are right earlier it was implied these would be the first 4 ) . There is no confirmation in the statement how many of these (Jinnah) will be built.

With the 4 impending retirements, one would assume if the plan is for a total of 20 operational 2400+ ton warships (so that yarmook gets counted in), there would be 4 jinnah (on top of the 4 PN Milgem).

Though the admiral could also be leaving out ada and yarmook from the definition (6 ships in all in the committed acquisition) and hence says 6 more "large tonnage" ships will be needed (say in 3000+ ton category which I assume the new Jinnah falls into).

Anyway I will wait for more clarity later. If its the latter that is even more budgeting needed.

That one Perry can be kept out of numbers (even probably themselves are not counting it ), because it is not modernized -maintained and probably lacks the critical abilities. Also Type 21's are too old and likely to retire. and 4 F-22P might go through an MLU in next decade.

Yah that's why I put in 4 retirements from the number.

If i am not mistaken the project has costed around such including ToT and IP rights, but again the cost might be excluding some systems which is going to be purchased or provided by PN itself (Chinese or Pakistani subsystems). The actual price might be lower when Pakistan desires to built further ships on their own. And if they wish the prices can be further shrunk by replacing propulsion system and some other subsystems.

My personal comment, whenever somebody insists or talks about "numbers" to show size of their fleet, i just react "mehh". The number's doesn't matter, but the capabilities and fleet command structure matters the most. So, the numbers shouldn't be the goal.

Yup couldn't have said it better.

 

[Anmdt]

The admiral seems to confirm in addition to 4 Ada (built as frigates with VLS etc)..... there will be a "5th" which will be the first of the jinnah class (you are right earlier it was implied these would be the first 4 ) . There is no confirmation in the statement how many of these (Jinnah) will be built.

Actually he has cleared out a misunderstanding,
The 4th ship of the PN Milgem project would have been the design of Jinnah class frigate -with possible modifications- , what has changed ,is only that first 3 ships will share the design with the 4th. Probably ships from the 5th will be classified under Jinnah Class frigate and all 4 will be built in Pakistan, which now suits well the previous statements as 4th ship would have been the base of the future frigates.
Since Jinnah class frigate also reported to be designed by Turkey, i don't have information regarding to a 2nd design (except of preliminary designs of Ada they were meant to purchase, shown to the PN Officials). And the only design is shared below, which is being built now.

Actually there remains one more confusion, what if some of the ships are not this design, and actually just the original Ada-Class with minor modifications? We will only know when the first ship is launched or some images are leaked.

Pakistan Navy Milgem Project

Based on Turkish Milgem Project's Ada-Class corvette, Pakistan's Jinnah Class provides extended capabilities similar to Istanbul Class frigate, designed by Turkish Joint Military infastracture complex (ASFAT) according to PN's requirements, Jinnah class high likely holds both Chinese-Western and...

defencehub.live

 

[Yoyo]

What happened to the pipeline project that would bring Turkmenistan gas through Afghanistan into Pakistan? This would bring in a lot of revenues for both Afghanistan and Pakistan by transfer and docking fees and totally bank roll Turkmenistan. Why does this only appear to exist on paper?

Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

This is quite confusing, the published image was presented as Jinnah Class frigate, however ASFAT ,the shipyard states that 4 of the PN Milgem is under construction (2 in Turkey, 2 in Pakistan). So either there are total of 4 ships as Jinnah + PN Milgem ,or there is only 4 ships currently approved which is all Jinnah, which is actually PN Milgem.
Note:
Apparently, the 4 ships which is contracted for now is called PN Milgem and it is mentioned as such in documents. I was rather thinking this "PN Milgem" was the Jinnah class, but it was not.

That one Perry can be kept out of numbers (even probably themselves are not counting it ), because it is not modernized -maintained and probably lacks the critical abilities. Also Type 21's are too old and likely to retire. and 4 F-22P might go through an MLU in next decade.


If i am not mistaken the project has costed around such including ToT and IP rights, but again the cost might be excluding some systems which is going to be purchased or provided by PN itself (Chinese or Pakistani subsystems). The actual price might be lower when Pakistan desires to built further ships on their own. And if they wish the prices can be further shrunk by replacing propulsion system and some other subsystems.

My personal comment, whenever somebody insists or talks about "numbers" to show size of their fleet, i just react "mehh". The number's doesn't matter, but the capabilities and fleet command structure matters the most. So, the numbers shouldn't be the goal.

And in overall, 20 major combatant, plus 30 minor combatant is not a dream,since probably those 30 would be FAC, Corvette sized ASW -ASuW ships in range of 50-70 meters and about 600 to 1200 tons of displacement and with weaker /cheaper sensors compared to those major 20.

4 of Type-54
4 of Type-22
4 of Yarmook -even if i don't count these as major assets- *
4 of PN Milgem
4 of Jinnah Class frigate

although, these 4 ships seem to have a strengthened mast for sensors, space for a CIWS -counter measures, and 8* SSM ,may hint possible upgrades in the future.

I think Pakistan kept changing the MILGEM contract, so the details in 2018 are different from 2020.

Basically, the PN CNS confirmed that all 4 ships in the MILGEM are corvettes (but heavily modified variants of the ADA with 16-cell VLS, 2x3 AShM, etc).

The Jinnah-class frigate is now a separate program that will come after the corvettes. I suspect Pakistan and Turkey are working on the Jinnah-class to replace the F-22Ps by 2040.

Basically:

4 Type 054A/P
4 MILGEM
2 OPV 1900 / Yarmouk
6 Bigger Yarmouk?
4 F-22P >>> 4 Jinnah-Class by 2040?

 

[Anmdt]

I think Pakistan kept changing the MILGEM contract, so the details in 2018 are different from 2020.

Basically, the PN CNS confirmed that all 4 ships in the MILGEM are corvettes (but heavily modified variants of the ADA with 16-cell VLS, 2x3 AShM, etc).

The Jinnah-class frigate is now a separate program that will come after the corvettes. I suspect Pakistan and Turkey are working on the Jinnah-class to replace the F-22Ps by 2040.

Basically:

4 Type 054A/P
4 MILGEM
2 OPV 1900 / Yarmouk
6 Bigger Yarmouk?
4 F-22P >>> 4 Jinnah-Class by 2040?

We still don't know publicly which designs are being built, the image posted in steel cutting of 1st ship in Turkey seemed to be modified version of Ada class (and the fact is the image was photoshopped and not actual renders) while the image posted in Pakistan was render of the design, which is strongly assumed to belong a frigate design.
Also jinnah class was told to be CODAD, while 1st ship of what called PN Milgem has received its gas turbine. They either opted for Codag or the latter 4 ships will be different than what is shown.
And as i told earlier since the first time the 4th ship was meant to be base for future frigates, which makes me assume the design is applied to all 4 ships or different designs are being built. Turkey doesn't have enough resources to spare for Pakistan's 2 different corvette/frigate designs and deliver those in golden platters with IP rights. There are still ongoing projects which is a matter of National security for Turkey.
And also it will be redundant for Pakistan to pay for design and IP rights of 2 different designs.
And so far only one form has gone through hydrodynamic testing which has belonged to the version shown in steel cutting ceremony in Pakistan

 

[Gary]

.
Also jinnah class was told to be CODAD, while 1st ship of what called PN Milgem has received its gas turbine. They either opted for Codag or the latter 4 ships will be different than what is shown.

Jinnah is supposed to be the larger one right??? an odd choice to use CODAD instead of a more powerful CODAG

 

[Gary]

Guys, this thread is about Pakistan Navy 50 ships plan, please avoid other kind of matters that will alter the original subject of discussion.

 

[Nilgiri]

Guys, this thread is about Pakistan Navy 50 ships plan, please avoid other kind of matters that will alter the original subject of discussion.

I'm going to move the off topic replies here to another thread now.

EDIT: It is moved here now: https://defencehub.live/threads/ind-pak-debate-thread.2007/

 

[Anmdt]

Jinnah is supposed to be the larger one right??? an odd choice to use CODAD instead of a more powerful CODAG

Type 54 is CODAD, Yarmook is CODAD, F22P is CODAD, i thought they wanted to be consistent with CODAD configuration in all ships. Also the Fleet Replenishment Tanker they acquired from Turkey and built in Pakistan had Diesel engines, while the similar ship for TN uses gas turbine.
The size doesn't matter in here, the larger the ship,the more space you have for machinery, in fact gas turbines suit well for small vessels with greater power needs - like FACs -, or optionally you may uses gas turbines in large vessels to save space.

 

[Gary]

Type 54 is CODAD, Yarmook is CODAD, F22P is CODAD, i thought they wanted to be consistent with CODAD configuration in all ships. Also the Fleet Replenishment Tanker they acquired from Turkey and built in Pakistan had Diesel engines, while the similar ship for TN uses gas turbine.
The size doesn't matter in here, the larger the ship,the more space you have for machinery, in fact gas turbines suit well for small vessels with greater power needs - like FACs -, or optionally you may uses gas turbines in large vessels to save space.

Ahhh I see, ID Navy also moving towards replacing all turbine based engine with CODAD and CODOE

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

We still don't know publicly which designs are being built, the image posted in steel cutting of 1st ship in Turkey seemed to be modified version of Ada class (and the fact is the image was photoshopped and not actual renders) while the image posted in Pakistan was render of the design, which is strongly assumed to belong a frigate design.
Also jinnah class was told to be CODAD, while 1st ship of what called PN Milgem has received its gas turbine. They either opted for Codag or the latter 4 ships will be different than what is shown.
And as i told earlier since the first time the 4th ship was meant to be base for future frigates, which makes me assume the design is applied to all 4 ships or different designs are being built. Turkey doesn't have enough resources to spare for Pakistan's 2 different corvette/frigate designs and deliver those in golden platters with IP rights. There are still ongoing projects which is a matter of National security for Turkey.
And also it will be redundant for Pakistan to pay for design and IP rights of 2 different designs.
And so far only one form has gone through hydrodynamic testing which has belonged to the version shown in steel cutting ceremony in Pakistan

It's worth noting that the PN itself is calling the MILGEMs 'corvettes' now (including the VLS design). The only 'frigate' in the question is the Jinnah-class, whatever that might be. However, with its new ships, the PN called 2,000-3,000-ton ships "corvettes" (e.g., MILGEM and Yarmouk), while 4,000+ ton "frigates" (Type 054A/P).

As for the design and IP rights, it could solely be for the Jinnah-class that ASFAT is helping Pakistan's NRDI with... the PN MILGEM corvette could be an ASFAT project for PN needs. We also no longer know about the timelines. If the PN is saying the fifth ship will be Jinnah, then when are we expecting it? It could be a factor after 2030.

 

[Anmdt]

It's worth noting that the PN itself is calling the MILGEMs 'corvettes' now (including the VLS design). The only 'frigate' in the question is the Jinnah-class, whatever that might be. However, with its new ships, the PN called 2,000-3,000-ton ships "corvettes" (e.g., MILGEM and Yarmouk), while 4,000+ ton "frigates" (Type 054A/P).

As for the design and IP rights, it could solely be for the Jinnah-class that ASFAT is helping Pakistan's NRDI with... the PN MILGEM corvette could be an ASFAT project for PN needs. We also no longer know about the timelines. If the PN is saying the fifth ship will be Jinnah, then when are we expecting it? It could be a factor after 2030.

I didnt know that PN had such a classification of vessels. Since we have referred to those modified extended Ada class as Frigates.
The timeline for the first 4 ships was published by ASFAT, i dont know how consistent that will be considering inexperience of Karachi shipyard on such vessels and training of personnel ongoing on the first ship in Turkey, so delays are expected.
And again, in case of a future frigate design with 3000+ tonnes, ASFAT will do the entire of the design, and it is for sure NRDI is not close to initiate and conduct design process of a frigate on their own.
So considering all these, either, the latter 4 ships will be based on PN Milgem corvette and will not require to start a new design over - which is also in lieu with admirals statements calling those two projects adjoined- ,or there will be a whole new design project to be commenced beyond 2030 as you have stated.

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

I didnt know that PN had such a classification of vessels. Since we have referred to those modified extended Ada class as Frigates.
The timeline for the first 4 ships was published by ASFAT, i dont know how consistent that will be considering inexperience of Karachi shipyard on such vessels and training of personnel ongoing on the first ship in Turkey, so delays are expected.
And again, in case of a future frigate design with 3000+ tonnes, ASFAT will do the entire of the design, and it is for sure NRDI is not close to initiate and conduct design process of a frigate on their own.
So considering all these, either, the latter 4 ships will be based on PN Milgem corvette and will not require to start a new design over - which is also in lieu with admirals statements calling those two projects adjoined- ,or there will be a whole new design project to be commenced beyond 2030 as you have stated.

Based on the PN CNS' speech, I think J-Class could be an ASFAT-NRDI project for after 2030. He basically made it seem like the project was in early design stages.

As for the 4 PN MILGEM. In all likelihood, KSEW will only build them using pre-fab kits from Turkey. With the aggressive timelines, I don't think KSEW is doing any full manufacturing work for the MILGEM corvette or even the Hangor SSP (even those are likely pre-fab kits from China).

If anything, it seems the PN wants to use the 2020s to build NRDI's capacity and design a new frigate and new submarine (to replace F-22P and Agosta 90B, respectively).

 

[Anmdt]

With the aggressive timelines, I don't think KSEW is doing any full manufacturing work for the MILGEM corvette

I think STM and ASFAT will take parts in critical parts, instead of delivering blocks and pre-built kits from Turkey. Especially on integration of propulsion system - propeller-shafting-engine beds- and electronics-sensors -radars -etc-,
For piping,steel and cabling work some personnel of KSEW has received training in Turkey, engineers and field workers but i guess they will actively need to be in construction of the 1st vessel before passing on to the 3rd in Pakistan.

Based on the PN CNS' speech, I think J-Class could be an ASFAT-NRDI project for after 2030. He basically made it seem like the project was in early design stages.

I even doubt if there is a design in conceptual stage on ASFAT-STM, which i also told before but who knows maybe PN works on some concept on their own later to be optimized and realized by ASFAT.

to replace F-22P

F-22Ps are pretty new and i hear too many Pakistani -even some personnel from PN- speaks about replacing those, why ,what is wrong? Probably there will be an MLU in 2020s and the ship will change its shape but i am not sure how far it can be upgraded.

Once again, the first ship's design will tell better about the projects, since two different designs were present in separate ceremonies.

 

[Waz]

@ANMDT great posts.

 

[Nilgiri]

It's worth noting that the PN itself is calling the MILGEMs 'corvettes' now (including the VLS design). The only 'frigate' in the question is the Jinnah-class, whatever that might be. However, with its new ships, the PN called 2,000-3,000-ton ships "corvettes" (e.g., MILGEM and Yarmouk), while 4,000+ ton "frigates" (Type 054A/P).

Honestly, this is my recent thinking on it too for convenience purpose (using tonnage threshold).

But I would think PN behind it all follows the convention of (officially assigned/designed) endurance profile at sea that is has structured among assets (rather than tonnage...which can be correlated for convenience but not strictly always eg. ref: Kamorta class)

This is just like other navies.....to distinguish between corvette and frigate using operational doctrine. Friend of mine (who works in the industry) has explained this to me number of times, even to degree of delineating over time (of naval warfare evolution) and across navies too.