Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

Var Dracon

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What happened ?? did any of those materialize ? what happened to the so called Petir "cruise missile". Last time I check they rename it into target drone instead.
Petir missile and Jalak target drone are 2 different things


From what I see, both is no longer listed as product in PT Sari Bahari website. Probably they consider it failed prototype. Maybe.
 

Gary

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Petir missile and Jalak target drone are 2 different things
really ?

Dan satu tahun berselang, ada kabar bahwa sosok yang awalnya dibesut sebagai rudal permukaan ke permukaan ini telah berganti nama menjadi “Jalak.”


From what I see, both is no longer listed as product in PT Sari Bahari website. Probably they consider it failed prototype. Maybe.

It is destined to be, same with that Mer**i manpads lel. If you want to look at what a real military industry producing missile, you could visit the Turkish defense forum and see a whole ecosystem in place to support the fabrication of missiles. From navigation, targeting, warhead, propulsion all developed in parallel with the development of the missiles .

I am always a skeptic when it comes to Indonesian defense industry, but never as skeptic when I heard about that Petir missile, basically we heard an announcement of a "cruise missile" will be built without any of the supporting subsystem in place.

No disrespect for the engineers, but that Petir "cruise missile" are just hobby RC plane. It doesn't satisfy the condition of a cruise missile in a true sense.

This is the kind of industry that some member here are a staunch supporter at, while being blind to our limitations and even goes on tho the extreme by going against any weapons purchase because "it will hurt the local industry" LEL. And since this is an air force thread, I wanna know how could we support local defense industry while our local defense industry has nothing to offer ?
 

Var Dracon

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really ?

Dan satu tahun berselang, ada kabar bahwa sosok yang awalnya dibesut sebagai rudal permukaan ke permukaan ini telah berganti nama menjadi “Jalak.”
They are different, I have seen them on the website. One is boxy and the other is cylindrical. The news is not necessarily accurate.
 

Madokafc

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Don't know which expert @Indos had been talking for so long



Andi Alisjahbana one of the expert at PT DI stated, the government decision to acquire new jet fighter is not only about cost saving but more about the threat perception, security needs and so on. KF21 and Rafale program is very different In nature. In which i hold my candle for his opinion.


So far MoD by many occasion stated their intention to acquire of up to 48 units KFX/IFX would be going on, 42 Rafale would going on, 36 F15EX/ID would going on too. All party Will be happy and no need to be salty and acting so racist like degenerate cretin as you are by talking about blood and ancestor, that's so low and lame.

We got Major Ijon jambi one of the founder of Kopassus and Admiral John Lie as Priceless example of how blood doesn't know bound how to serve this country.
 

Umigami

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We will see buddy, you must vote for Prabowo on next election, along with Ananda from Defense Talks and other who dont want Indonesia to produce KF21/IFX due to several reasons :cool:

I suspect your mix blood of bule and Ananda is Chinese Indonesian :cool:

I will only vote for Anies/Ridwan or Ganjar Pranowo, I will see their program first.....


View attachment 40020

Your Vote and Ananda Vote :geek:

View attachment 40021
What kind of answer is this
 

Madokafc

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Intermezzo, Thailand got deals for eight little birds, their DCSA release was way back in 2019, and only concluded the deals recently. This case was the same with Indonesian used F16 Grant and Sales activity, as they need more than three years to conclude the deals. Indonesian F15EX Sales deals hopefully can be finished before 2024, that's why the release of budget funding for down payment is not necessarily must be concluded in 2022 right now but can be happened at later dates in 2023 or 2024.
 

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From your expect, will it be 36 units?

Should be, they are kinda need the number of airframe lately. We got trolled by our own mindset before, most of us must be thinking we only ordered severely reduced number of Rafale (they negotiated for 36) and they finally increase the number to 42. And there is no reason to doubt their initial intention for 36 units of F15EX right now.
 

Indos

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Don't know which expert @Indos had been talking for so long



Andi Alisjahbana one of the expert at PT DI stated, the government decision to acquire new jet fighter is not only about cost saving but more about the threat perception, security needs and so on. KF21 and Rafale program is very different In nature. In which i hold my candle for his opinion.

Of course DI engineer doesnt want to go against his own main customer publicly and KF21/IFX program is part of Defense Minister program since SBY period. It will be suicide to do that, be critical and dont be a person easily manipulated @Madokafc
 
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Gary

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We will see buddy, you must vote for Prabowo on next election, along with Ananda from Defense Talks and other who dont want Indonesia to produce KF21/IFX due to several reasons :cool:

I suspect your mix blood of bule and Ananda is Chinese Indonesian :cool:

I will only vote for Anies/Ridwan or Ganjar Pranowo, I will see their program first.....

Your Vote and Ananda Vote :geek:
  1. I was expecting a sophisticated answer from a title holder. You just set a low bar for any future discussion
  2. I don't really know this Ananda guy you keep mentioning, but I suppose he's more intellectual than you.
  3. I don't really get myself into local politics, unlike you I have no political champion, keep your vote to yourself.
  4. I never say I'm against KF-21, but KF-21 must not be a barrier to any badly needed weapons purchase, the air force are by far the weakest link in the military. Add that to the rising geopolitical tension in our North, and we have people like you actively going against modernizing the air force. Btw, you do not serve. Its not you who's going to be killed once hostilities arrive. Soldiers go to war with equipment given to them in peace time
  5. stay mad if you want to.
 

Gary

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They are different, I have seen them on the website. One is boxy and the other is cylindrical. The news is not necessarily accurate.
Target-drone-Jalak-dan-rudal-Petir.jpg


I suppose the cylindrical one is drone, while the boxy one are the "cruise missile". if you look closely it's just an aerodynamic tweaks, the wing looks exactly the same. No matter how they try to label on of them a "cruise missile", both are basically drones.

It's good that they finally be honest and decide to name it a target drone instead, we could save money mass producing those and turn it into target drones for Arhanud LATBAKJATRAT exercise.

As for calling it a cruise missile, it does not satisfy anything to be called a cruise missile.

Even the US never call their X-51 Waverider as hypersonic missile, instead they called it an unmanned research scramjet experimental aircraft for hypersonic flight

 

Madokafc

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With all of the procurement happened, their delivery Times would go around between 2026 through around early 2030 year.
With the F15 EX, Rafale F4 and KF21 going to dominated the high end lists. Our low end fighter fleets in which comprised of F-16 (all of them is older variants in which had been categorically being classified as workhorse low end fighter within USAF), T/A 50 and Hawk 109/209. Among them those Hawk squadron would be more than 30 years old in 2030 and those F16 (C,D and Block 15 OCU) would reach 40 years old (though SLEP program would let them to have around 2000 to 3000 hours or more (depend on case per case) of flying time but let's not discount the possibility to retire them earlier than what had been expected) would let our low end low costs performing fighter fleets is in lower number than our high end fighter fleets.

And so within 2024 or 2025 onward the Air Force should started looking for light aircraft competition program. The purpose is very obvious, we can't depend on ourselves with high end fighter fleets to do routine peace time duty (including daily peace time patrol duty, peace time interception duty, CAP and so on) as the costs would be too high and we would costs too much on the valuable flight hours life of the aircraft itself just to do jobs in which can be done by the lower end fighter such as the Hawk or older F16.

Second, the number of squadron fighter in Indonesia is still too low, even at estimated number after the completion of plan Bobcat, Indonesian Air Force would only have around 10 to 12 fighter squadron fleets to be divided into three Air command units. This considering the coveraged area in which our Air Force must protected and guarded is around of 8 million square kilometer of Airspace of our seas and land areas. That's staggering amount of responsibilities areas is no less than the European continent or big country such as China or USA. This means even at the number of 180 or so fighter as stipulated by the Bobcat plan, every fighter aircraft in Indonesian Air Force must cover area of responsibilities around 44,500 or so square kilometer. This is surely not enough, and can't be justified by any logical means, as every units itself need maintenance time, and spend time for routine check and not always available for operational combat duty.

Looking from this points, the gaps between operational needs and what had been available is still too staggering indeed. To Remedy such situation, the most logical answer is to add more number of assets and using the advantage of technology progress like introduced UAV and UCAV to share such burden. But nonetheless, there is always needs to adding more manned fighter aircraft into the fleets as with the current technical specs and technological level of current UAV and UCAV is not panacea to answer the complexity of problem the Air Force must face.

And why inducted more light fighter aircraft in the class of what i had been mentioned before? One aspect, is costs, from initial acquisition costs, operational costs and life cycle costs all of them must have much lower number than the high end fighter we are currently aiming to have at, in which lead to better availability of the fleets and greater number to be acquired. Second, the complexity of production process of such fighter is much lower than what high end fighter have, and induction Rates should have been much faster.

Thus i can say, between 2024 or 2025, it should have been the perfect windows time to start the process for looking additional light fighter aircraft at sufficient number for the Indonesian Air Force. Thus necessarily reduced the gaps supposed to be happened in 2030.
 

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With all of the procurement happened, their delivery Times would go around between 2026 through around early 2030 year.
With the F15 EX, Rafale F4 and KF21 going to dominated the high end lists. Our low end fighter fleets in which comprised of F-16 (all of them is older variants in which had been categorically being classified as workhorse low end fighter within USAF), T/A 50 and Hawk 109/209. Among them those Hawk squadron would be more than 30 years old in 2030 and those F16 (C,D and Block 15 OCU) would reach 40 years old (though SLEP program would let them to have around 2000 to 3000 hours or more (depend on case per case) of flying time but let's not discount the possibility to retire them earlier than what had been expected) would let our low end low costs performing fighter fleets is in lower number than our high end fighter fleets.

And so within 2024 or 2025 onward the Air Force should started looking for light aircraft competition program. The purpose is very obvious, we can't depend on ourselves with high end fighter fleets to do routine peace time duty (including daily peace time patrol duty, peace time interception duty, CAP and so on) as the costs would be too high and we would costs too much on the valuable flight hours life of the aircraft itself just to do jobs in which can be done by the lower end fighter such as the Hawk or older F16.

Second, the number of squadron fighter in Indonesia is still too low, even at estimated number after the completion of plan Bobcat, Indonesian Air Force would only have around 10 to 12 fighter squadron fleets to be divided into three Air command units. This considering the coveraged area in which our Air Force must protected and guarded is around of 8 million square kilometer of Airspace of our seas and land areas. That's staggering amount of responsibilities areas is no less than the European continent or big country such as China or USA. This means even at the number of 180 or so fighter as stipulated by the Bobcat plan, every fighter aircraft in Indonesian Air Force must cover area of responsibilities around 44,500 or so square kilometer. This is surely not enough, and can't be justified by any logical means, as every units itself need maintenance time, and spend time for routine check and not always available for operational combat duty.

Looking from this points, the gaps between operational needs and what had been available is still too staggering indeed. To Remedy such situation, the most logical answer is to add more number of assets and using the advantage of technology progress like introduced UAV and UCAV to share such burden. But nonetheless, there is always needs to adding more manned fighter aircraft into the fleets as with the current technical specs and technological level of current UAV and UCAV is not panacea to answer the complexity of problem the Air Force must face.

And why inducted more light fighter aircraft in the class of what i had been mentioned before? One aspect, is costs, from initial acquisition costs, operational costs and life cycle costs all of them must have much lower number than the high end fighter we are currently aiming to have at, in which lead to better availability of the fleets and greater number to be acquired. Second, the complexity of production process of such fighter is much lower than what high end fighter have, and induction Rates should have been much faster.

Thus i can say, between 2024 or 2025, it should have been the perfect windows time to start the process for looking additional light fighter aircraft at sufficient number for the Indonesian Air Force. Thus necessarily reduced the gaps supposed to be happened in 2030.

It maybe a good time when we need to think about not only getting more fighters to cover all our land and seas airspace, but also to look at other technology to help cover, that is more cost efficient....I am thinking of reconnaisance satellite. A combination of recon satellite(s), OTH radars and UAVs may help us make early identification of potential threat entering our territories....hence our limited number of fighters might be able to be deployed more effectively to intercept the potential hostiles.......:)

Just an amateur rambling...hahahaha
 

Madokafc

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It maybe a good time when we need to think about not only getting more fighters to cover all our land and seas airspace, but also to look at other technology to help cover, that is more cost efficient....I am thinking of reconnaisance satellite. A combination of recon satellite(s), OTH radars and UAVs may help us make early identification of potential threat entering our territories....hence our limited number of fighters might be able to be deployed more effectively to intercept the potential hostiles.......:)

Just an amateur rambling...hahahaha

While you have Effective surveilance system in place (enhanced C4ISR, comprised of satelit system, fiber optic to support network system, radar coveraged, and so on ) you still need effective tools to ensure the ADIZ being protected, and to protect and guard the country air space there is no other tools better than fighter for now. That's what i can said for now.

Analoginya
Kalo di komplek perumahan orang kaya model Menteng atau Pondok Indah, percuma lu punya banyak CCTV tapi ga ada satpam dan anjing penjaganya yang stand by. Lu bisa ngeliat maling masuk rumah lu, tapi lu ga punya sekuriti buat menghalangi mereka.
 

Umigami

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With all of the procurement happened, their delivery Times would go around between 2026 through around early 2030 year.
With the F15 EX, Rafale F4 and KF21 going to dominated the high end lists. Our low end fighter fleets in which comprised of F-16 (all of them is older variants in which had been categorically being classified as workhorse low end fighter within USAF), T/A 50 and Hawk 109/209. Among them those Hawk squadron would be more than 30 years old in 2030 and those F16 (C,D and Block 15 OCU) would reach 40 years old (though SLEP program would let them to have around 2000 to 3000 hours or more (depend on case per case) of flying time but let's not discount the possibility to retire them earlier than what had been expected) would let our low end low costs performing fighter fleets is in lower number than our high end fighter fleets.

And so within 2024 or 2025 onward the Air Force should started looking for light aircraft competition program. The purpose is very obvious, we can't depend on ourselves with high end fighter fleets to do routine peace time duty (including daily peace time patrol duty, peace time interception duty, CAP and so on) as the costs would be too high and we would costs too much on the valuable flight hours life of the aircraft itself just to do jobs in which can be done by the lower end fighter such as the Hawk or older F16.

Second, the number of squadron fighter in Indonesia is still too low, even at estimated number after the completion of plan Bobcat, Indonesian Air Force would only have around 10 to 12 fighter squadron fleets to be divided into three Air command units. This considering the coveraged area in which our Air Force must protected and guarded is around of 8 million square kilometer of Airspace of our seas and land areas. That's staggering amount of responsibilities areas is no less than the European continent or big country such as China or USA. This means even at the number of 180 or so fighter as stipulated by the Bobcat plan, every fighter aircraft in Indonesian Air Force must cover area of responsibilities around 44,500 or so square kilometer. This is surely not enough, and can't be justified by any logical means, as every units itself need maintenance time, and spend time for routine check and not always available for operational combat duty.

Looking from this points, the gaps between operational needs and what had been available is still too staggering indeed. To Remedy such situation, the most logical answer is to add more number of assets and using the advantage of technology progress like introduced UAV and UCAV to share such burden. But nonetheless, there is always needs to adding more manned fighter aircraft into the fleets as with the current technical specs and technological level of current UAV and UCAV is not panacea to answer the complexity of problem the Air Force must face.

And why inducted more light fighter aircraft in the class of what i had been mentioned before? One aspect, is costs, from initial acquisition costs, operational costs and life cycle costs all of them must have much lower number than the high end fighter we are currently aiming to have at, in which lead to better availability of the fleets and greater number to be acquired. Second, the complexity of production process of such fighter is much lower than what high end fighter have, and induction Rates should have been much faster.

Thus i can say, between 2024 or 2025, it should have been the perfect windows time to start the process for looking additional light fighter aircraft at sufficient number for the Indonesian Air Force. Thus necessarily reduced the gaps supposed to be happened in 2030.
I thought Boramae or Rafale will be our new workhorse?
More FA50 I guess...
 

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we would costs too much on the valuable flight hours life of the aircraft itself just to do jobs in which can be done by the lower end fighter such as the Hawk or older F16
I'm assuming that with a goal of procuring several squadrons of new single-engined fighters within a decade after 2025, most of the current offerings will either be: (a.) too technologically old, or (b.) their production lines have already stopped. Since most of the 5th gen jet fighters development projects today are twin-engined, and (assuming) that we still can't or don't want to buy the Su-75 checkmate, our options are very limited in this regard.

So what to do? One possible other option is to start our own lightweight fighter program since we'll have three different turbofans we can choose as its poweplant in our upcoming twin-engined fighter fleets. Sorted from the lightest dry weight, they are: Snecma M88 (897 kg), GE F414-400 (1110 kg), and PW F100-229 (1737 kg).

And, no, in case anyone wonder, I'm not saying that this will be easy for us but at the very least the experience we'll gain in building our own version of KF-21/IFX in-house sometime after 2024 can and should contribute a lot if we choose to take this path.

This considering the coveraged area in which our Air Force must protected and guarded is around of 8 million square kilometer of Airspace of our seas and land areas. That's staggering amount of responsibilities areas is no less than the European continent or big country such as China or USA. This means even at the number of 180 or so fighter as stipulated by the Bobcat plan, every fighter aircraft in Indonesian Air Force must cover area of responsibilities around 44,500 or so square kilometer. This is surely not enough, and can't be justified by any logical means, as every units itself need maintenance time, and spend time for routine check and not always available for operational combat duty.
At first I was confused where did you get the 8 million sq km from, but then I realized that also includes our EEZ. So yeah, it's more or less that much.

Now this should be hammered into the heads of anyone claiming that we don't need more jet fighters with whatever reasons they can come up with. It's simply because no air force in the world can maintain 100% operational readiness at any given time - even the USAF can only achieve about 50% - so those 180 jet fighters are simply not enough to achieve the "minimum essential" amount that we actually need.
 

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I thought Boramae or Rafale will be our new workhorse?
More FA50 I guess...

Neither of them, the costs would be prohibiting unless you have deep pocket here and there. But i doubt that, even with small research, with the current trajectories economy continue to growing up till reach two trillion US Dollar by then, if we keep the current record of defense spending factor, our Defense budget would only reach zero point' eight to one percentage of total GDP, means around 16 Billion US Dollar to twenty Billion US Dollar. That amount still not that great considering the value of inflation and adjustment costs for other spending factor like oil prices, salary costs, infrastructure costs and so on.

Even by then we would still need light fighter aircraft to do the jobs being done by the current Golden Eagle, Hawk and older F-16 Falcon. Our situation would only be similar with what the current South Korean do, they are maintain large number of F-16 block C/D, F15 K, F-35 but at the same time they still needed the most lighter aircraft like F-5 Tiger in which the jobs gradually being shifted toward the T/A or F/A 50 golden eagle.
 

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I'm assuming that with a goal of procuring several squadrons of new single-engined fighters within a decade after 2025, most of the current offerings will either be: (a.) too technologically old, or (b.) their production lines have already stopped. Since most of the 5th gen jet fighters development projects today are twin-engined, and (assuming) that we still can't or don't want to buy the Su-75 checkmate, our options are very limited in this regard.

So what to do? One possible other option is to start our own lightweight fighter program since we'll have three different turbofans we can choose as its poweplant in our upcoming twin-engined fighter fleets. Sorted from the lightest dry weight, they are: Snecma M88 (897 kg), GE F414-400 (1110 kg), and PW F100-229 (1737 kg).

And, no, in case anyone wonder, I'm not saying that this will be easy for us but at the very least the experience we'll gain in building our own version of KF-21/IFX in-house sometime after 2024 can and should contribute a lot if we choose to take this path.


At first I was confused where did you get the 8 million sq km from, but then I realized that also includes our EEZ. So yeah, it's more or less that much.

Now this should be hammered into the heads of anyone claiming that we don't need more jet fighters with whatever reasons they can come up with. It's simply because no air force in the world can maintain 100% operational readiness at any given time - even the USAF can only achieve about 50% - so those 180 jet fighters are simply not enough to achieve the "minimum essential" amount that we actually need.

With this kind of situation we can related ourselves with major power house such as India or South Korea, why they are very eager to developing their own light fighter aircraft such as Hal Tejas or F/A 50, even though they already had hundreds top of the line frontline fighter aircraft such as Su 30 MKI, F 16 Falcon Block 52, F-15 K, and such. The reason still being there, and Will be in the future, Money Reason.

If people, said why not ditch our current future procurement plan and going for light routes? Why going to elite routes first? The answer should be looking at possible points of clash, in history, in Asia Pasific, much of Air to Air battle would be happened above the ocean, crossing long distance between target and point' base. Battle of Philippines, Battle of Midway, Fall of Singapore, Battle of Leyte Gulf and so on happened and decided beforehand by fighter aircraft clashes over the seas. In which our planner surely taking more precaution over such possibility in the future. That's why they are taking fighter such as Rafale, F15EX and Made requirement for Indonesian version of KF21.
 

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While you have Effective surveilance system in place (enhanced C4ISR, comprised of satelit system, fiber optic to support network system, radar coveraged, and so on ) you still need effective tools to ensure the ADIZ being protected, and to protect and guard the country air space there is no other tools better than fighter for now. That's what i can said for now.

Analoginya
Kalo di komplek perumahan orang kaya model Menteng atau Pondok Indah, percuma lu punya banyak CCTV tapi ga ada satpam dan anjing penjaganya yang stand by. Lu bisa ngeliat maling masuk rumah lu, tapi lu ga punya sekuriti buat menghalangi mereka.
No argument here. Indeed we still need get adequate number of fighters to cover our space. India has 26 - 30 squadrons, China I think could be around 40 squadrons....so the 10 - 12 squadrons in Plan Bobcat may not be enough after all, in comparison.

To field that number of fighters will take a lot of "cuan" that we dont have at this time. Hence we may need to upgrade our surveillance system multiple fold to cover the gap. And this could require less money than lets say fielding additional 10 squadrons.

Since we plan to buy Airbus satellite (as part of MoU signed with France recently), which my assumption will be for Milcomm, why not explore recon as well.....:)
 

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Such is the nature of research and development. That's why we must collab and get ToT with experienced companies out there after knowing the limit of our local companies.

That's why I won't hold my breath when there's a local defense R&D project but without the involvement of experienced overseas companies in it.

Even then, there's no guarantee of 100% success. I mean, this is one of the main reason why we have little R&D in the first place. Why waste lots of money in R&D if there's no guaranteed result? Better buy finished product from overseas companies, right? Not to mention there's bonus cuan for the higher ups in such procurement.

Even Chinese acknowledged the limit of their local defense companies, that's why they bought many overseas defense companies and then transferred the knowledge and technologies to their local defense company, mainly the state owned ones. And thus, born Chinese copycat products.

If we want to develop our defense industry like China and UAE, there's a quite easy way to do it, just copy their strategy: Invest and buy lots of overseas defense companies then transfer their technology to Indonesian companies.

It requires lots of money, but have higher rate of success.

A cruise missile is basically an aircraft, the fact that were unable to create a working one tells much about our ability to independently design or create a more complex aircraft (read: fighter). The fact that some people would go into the extreme by going against any fighter purchase, give you an idea of the delusion that exist in here. Moreover that delusion comes from a title holder.
 

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