Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

Gary

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Can't agree more.

One of the reasons why I'm not a fan of putting brahmos on AH140. Beside it's too much of a Frankenstein, the most effective way to kill big surface platform is air power.

If they really want Brahmos then just buy the land based one and put them on our choke points (Or air launched from Rafale is okay too)
The Revolution in Military Affairs has pretty much left the ship as a weapon of war in the same position as a armored knight from the middle ages. Knights were well trained and armed; expensive to maintain. Along came cheap Longbow technology which pierced a Knight’s defenses. European battlefields were quickly covered with expensive casualties. The cost of missiles spammed by modern fighter jets are less than a quarter of a cost of a modern surface vessels, which s not only expensive but took years to build.

the raison d etre of all navies are sea control, and let's face it, no attempt of gaining sea control by warships alone has been successful for the last 70 years. Indonesia doesn't invest enough in air power to secure the seas ? too bad, nobody is going to pity us for only having swords while enemies invest in guns.

Before desert storm, air forces are seen as an integral part of armies, air forces are not expected to force the enemy into submission the way an army does, that thinking is challenged many times by air power proponents many time and finally put into display during desert storm. Now people are expecting that air power will play secondary role to surface navy in a sea battle, they should be prepared for a rude awakening.
 

Madokafc

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The Revolution in Military Affairs has pretty much left the ship as a weapon of war in the same position as a armored knight from the middle ages. Knights were well trained and armed; expensive to maintain. Along came cheap Longbow technology which pierced a Knight’s defenses. European battlefields were quickly covered with expensive casualties. The cost of missiles spammed by modern fighter jets are less than a quarter of a cost of a modern surface vessels, which s not only expensive but took years to build.

the raison d etre of all navies are sea control, and let's face it, no attempt of gaining sea control by warships alone has been successful for the last 70 years. Indonesia doesn't invest enough in air power to secure the seas ? too bad, nobody is going to pity us for only having swords while enemies invest in guns.

Before desert storm, air forces are seen as an integral part of armies, air forces are not expected to force the enemy into submission the way an army does, that thinking is challenged many times by air power proponents many time and finally put into display during desert storm. Now people are expecting that air power will play secondary role to surface navy in a sea battle, they should be prepared for a rude awakening.

Too bad, but tier one Navy already taking the Naval supremacy theory further by combined their surface vessels assets with Aerial Superiority, thus born the concept of carrier strike group at least in 1920 decades, as at the time they are already exist and in development stage and further honed and perfected by the Japanese and American during the great pacific war. Such concept of Naval supremacy is still ring true with the existence of aircraft carrier till today. So Navy without the existence of Aircraft carrier group within is not complete at all.

Btw, the western European navy most of them operated kind of aircraft carrier, with Harrier jump jet as the primary assets for UK, Spain and Italian in the past and now with F35B variant. The French is always maintain one aircraft carrier group at least.

By the way, the revolutionary modern UCAV concept is open the door for tier two or even three Navy to have their own carrier strike group in near future, at least the Turkey opening the concept with their own TB 3 Naval version of Bayraktar UCAV launched from LHD type vessels. There is possibility for the Indonesian Navy to own such assets in future.
 

Anmdt

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expensive to maintain
I would say ships are cheap to maintain for the sensors and capabilities they are carrying and demonstrating far from the homeland, uninterrupted for months or even a year in some cases (on per-day basis). None of the "mobile" sensors can ever provide the same capability fused at a single spot and neither for that long term. This converts 21st century ships into "floating sensors and command centers" which relies on defensive tactics than the offensive. The latest trend shows us the navies are adopting "better sensor and EW capability" over "more weapons". In my opinion 21st century warfare heavily relies on ISR than ever did before that makes any ISR platform more valuable than the offensive assets. ASuW is barely a function of a frigate or destroyer nowadays, they are more of ASW and AAW assets.

Nevertheless, if i were talking for USN i would say AShM (even the symbolic 8 Harpoon) are not needed on any surface asset since they have a remarkable non-surface based strike capabilities with carriers and submarines. But for other navies who lacks such a response time on counter-offensive i would say higher amount of AShM or more capable kamikaze drones, or variety or swarm capable munitions are needed.

Yes airforce is the backbone of the offensive tactics, but none of the airborne sensors can ever provide a fraction of what a surface ship is providing in terms of radar or electronic warfare capabilities (at the sea). The one of the last practitioner of FAC tactics, Turkish Navy, has also recently left manned FACs and decided to move into more agile USVs combined with more capable less agile corvettes - frigates . I would neither risk a manned platform to counter a flotilla at the open sea but simply use any OTH capable strike units (USV, UUV, mobile land based) to deliver the weapons. Again in any tactic i would put the ISR above all.

Since unlikely to receive any missile system above 300 km due to the MTCR and unlikely able to form and maintain a proper ship based aviation wing in near to mid future, i would say Indonesia requires to launch a long range cruise missile or anti-ship capable SRBM/MRBM programmes combined with satellite - airborne - seaborne ISR assets and funding these at all costs.

Rafales - F-15s launching Exocet / Harpoon sounds exciting but i think these airplanes would serve better to protect airspace around the homeland and Indonesia has no luxury of loosing them. Simply get an UAV to fulfill this duty if interested in delivering a missile. Even a customized low maintenance stealth UAV able to carry one AShM would serve the duty, why risk a well trained pilot and an expensive airplane instead of a few $million worth unmanned UCAV.
 

Umigami

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Simply get an UAV to fulfill this duty if interested in delivering a missile. Even a customized low maintenance stealth UAV able to carry one AShM would serve the duty
Kizilelma firing atmaca do sound like a good idea.
 

Gary

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I would say ships are cheap to maintain for the sensors and capabilities they are carrying and demonstrating far from the homeland, uninterrupted for months or even a year in some cases (on per-day basis). None of the "mobile" sensors can ever provide the same capability fused at a single spot and neither for that long term. This converts 21st century ships into "floating sensors and command centers" which relies on defensive tactics than the offensive.
Yes correct modern warships are more a mobile sensors node than actual offensive platforms like on the age of battleships. Think about a floating radar+missile batteries which could change course and speed at will.
. ASuW is barely a function of a frigate or destroyer nowadays, they are more of ASW and AAW assets.
Correct I've emphasize this multiple times.
Nevertheless, if i were talking for USN i would say AShM (even the symbolic 8 Harpoon) are not needed on any surface asset since they have a remarkable non-surface based strike capabilities with carriers and submarines.
It's better safe than sorry, even a 2x2 configuration is enough.
But for other navies who lacks such a response time on counter-offensive i would say higher amount of AShM or more capable kamikaze drones, or variety or swarm capable munitions are needed.
Let's say we're talking Indonesian navy. What they need is more air launched platforms for their naval aviation. A Bayraktar TB-2 is enough to survive most south east Asian countries naval air defense (think about the limited air defense onboard a Lekiu, Gepard or Jose Rizal class) then proceed to act upon those ships once spotted.
Yes airforce is the backbone of the offensive tactics, but none of the airborne sensors can ever provide a fraction of what a surface ship is providing in terms of radar or electronic warfare capabilities (at the sea).
An AWACS could out detect flying and surface target far further away. Shipborne radars for example are more optimized for air search than surface search which are limited due to earth curvature.

What navies offer is a much longer loitering time in situ.

Since unlikely to receive any missile system above 300 km due to the MTCR and unlikely able to form and maintain a proper ship based aviation wing in near to mid future, i
I think it's enough, not many neighboring countries has the capability to shoot air breathing aerial contacts farther than 100km.

There's also the option to fly hard deck to avoid radar detection, although I'm not sure how effective it is, since FLIR and CIWS technology has advances way much since the Argentinians pummeled the RN in San Carlos.

Rafales - F-15s launching Exocet / Harpoon sounds exciting but i think these airplanes would serve better to protect airspace around the homeland and Indonesia has no luxury of loosing them. Simply get an UAV to fulfill this duty if interested in delivering a missile. Even a customized low maintenance stealth UAV able to carry one AShM would serve the duty, why risk a well trained pilot and an expensive airplane instead of a few $million worth unmanned UCAV.
I couldn't talk about attrition, but all possibility should be used, high altitude penetrating fighters, or low altitude penetrating fighters in combination with MALE drones armed with medium sized AShM (Cakir, C-705 or Marte). All has it's distinct advantage and disadvantage.
 

Madokafc

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I would say ships are cheap to maintain for the sensors and capabilities they are carrying and demonstrating far from the homeland, uninterrupted for months or even a year in some cases (on per-day basis). None of the "mobile" sensors can ever provide the same capability fused at a single spot and neither for that long term. This converts 21st century ships into "floating sensors and command centers" which relies on defensive tactics than the offensive. The latest trend shows us the navies are adopting "better sensor and EW capability" over "more weapons". In my opinion 21st century warfare heavily relies on ISR than ever did before that makes any ISR platform more valuable than the offensive assets. ASuW is barely a function of a frigate or destroyer nowadays, they are more of ASW and AAW assets.

Nevertheless, if i were talking for USN i would say AShM (even the symbolic 8 Harpoon) are not needed on any surface asset since they have a remarkable non-surface based strike capabilities with carriers and submarines. But for other navies who lacks such a response time on counter-offensive i would say higher amount of AShM or more capable kamikaze drones, or variety or swarm capable munitions are needed.

Yes airforce is the backbone of the offensive tactics, but none of the airborne sensors can ever provide a fraction of what a surface ship is providing in terms of radar or electronic warfare capabilities (at the sea). The one of the last practitioner of FAC tactics, Turkish Navy, has also recently left manned FACs and decided to move into more agile USVs combined with more capable less agile corvettes - frigates . I would neither risk a manned platform to counter a flotilla at the open sea but simply use any OTH capable strike units (USV, UUV, mobile land based) to deliver the weapons. Again in any tactic i would put the ISR above all.

Since unlikely to receive any missile system above 300 km due to the MTCR and unlikely able to form and maintain a proper ship based aviation wing in near to mid future, i would say Indonesia requires to launch a long range cruise missile or anti-ship capable SRBM/MRBM programmes combined with satellite - airborne - seaborne ISR assets and funding these at all costs.

Rafales - F-15s launching Exocet / Harpoon sounds exciting but i think these airplanes would serve better to protect airspace around the homeland and Indonesia has no luxury of loosing them. Simply get an UAV to fulfill this duty if interested in delivering a missile. Even a customized low maintenance stealth UAV able to carry one AShM would serve the duty, why risk a well trained pilot and an expensive airplane instead of a few $million worth unmanned UCAV.

The trend in near future and onward there is motherships concept in which able to carry squadron of USV carrying AShM to spam missiles strikes toward enemies position either at seas or shore based position in reach of missiles strikes. Such motherships would be in form of modern LHD or even LPD, protected by fleet escort like AAW, ASW warships Frigates or Destroyer and being under umbrella of Aerial assets, there is also carrier based UCAV/recce/ELINT UAV concept in which need time to be mature and in place.
 

Anmdt

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An AWACS could out detect flying and surface target far further away. Shipborne radars for example are more optimized for air search than surface search which are limited due to earth curvature.
If you are referring to MPAs; they rather utilize SAR or radar mainly to detect periscopes - snorkels of submarines than the warships (or to analyze the wake field left by submarine-surface vessels). A typical warship has a strong IR signature despite of exhaust cooling systems, and even stronger one if they have switched to gas turbines (see recent Ukrainian attack for example to notice IR signature due to the gas turbines). So, IR based imaging systems are most preferred for surface targets. But yes, even destroyers might opt to use helicopters for ASuW engagement anymore.

I think it's enough, not many neighboring countries has the capability to shoot air breathing aerial contacts farther than 100km.

Having a 700-1000 km capable missile gives the flexibility of firing it from elsewhere than predicted locations on the land. Anti-ship cruise missiles are rather easy to make since they don't need terrain based navigation, terrain hugging, target recognition etc. If there is a 300km version - developed by local resources thus not bound to MTCR- , a 700 km version can be accessible as well. Also a long range missile gives another freedom at air-launched versions to plan missile's route and engagement, organizing a swarm coming in from different directions rather than one.

I couldn't talk about attrition, but all possibility should be used, high altitude penetrating fighters, or low altitude penetrating fighters in combination with MALE drones armed with medium sized AShM (Cakir, C-705 or Marte). All has it's distinct advantage and disadvantage.
A strong ISR capability brings the freedom of organization. Making sure of there is no other infiltrating asset (UUV-UAV) in near waters then low flight can be used with comfort. It all comes down to ISR and i wouldn't fancy loosing a manned platform in ASuW.


It's better safe than sorry, even a 2x2 configuration is enough.
For USN, yes. For others, i am not sure.
 

Anmdt

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Kizilelma firing atmaca do sound like a good idea.
I am more referring to something smaller that is literally built around 2 internal bays to carry AShM.
 

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WhatsApp-Image-2022-01-05-at-17.49.11-1.jpeg

https://koarmada2.tnial.mil.id/2022...at-udara-u-6215-tni-al-hadapi-serangan-udara/

Gunner console of Burevestnik AU-220M 2A9101 57mm main gun on KRI Tombak.

Note the 'MFP' shell option for the gun which is the same multi purpose 3OU8 round used in Derivatsiya-PVO SPAAG system, basically Russian take on Rheinmetall/Oerlikon AHEAD munition.

Also, for those curious about the 'container' bellow the gun,
kDTqM8z.png


For more details and some clip of those gun during firing test on Russia see vids below (in Russian).
 
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this is crunch

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At first i was so confuse, i thought this would be another new contract, but then it turns out to be the later processes of the last year First Steel Cutting.


and i still dont get the title means, OPV 90 and OPV, does it means the second OPV is not 90 meters but 98 meters?
 

Madokafc

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At first i was so confuse, i thought this would be another new contract, but then it turns out to be the later processes of the last year First Steel Cutting.


and i still dont get the title means, OPV 90 and OPV, does it means the second OPV is not 90 meters but 98 meters?

Just administration thingy , they have two sources of funding for the same project.
 

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