TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Brokengineer]

A shortsighted argument. I wish the ones who claim "it'll take decades because it took such and such country that long" would provide a deeper insight to what specifically took the time to develop so that we could examine TEI's capabilities in that regard and conclude if we are, indeed, up for the task or not. So I challenge you to state these technologies that we don't have or not within our reach. Only then we could have any fruitful conversations.

Tf6000 and AB capable variant will be an indication for TEI's capabilities in durable, efficient and powerful tf engine.
However, right now there is only one company with two stealth engine models that achieved upwards of 30k lbf. Considering this, it is enormously Hard task to achieve what is targeted within 8-10 years.
Technology is improving and testing process getting faster with the help of current computing power. Same is valid for any western countries with aviation history.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

A shortsighted argument. I wish the ones who claim "it'll take decades because it took such and such country that long" would provide a deeper insight to what specifically took the time to develop so that we could examine TEI's capabilities in that regard and conclude if we are, indeed, up for the task or not. So I challenge you to state these technologies that we don't have or not within our reach. Only then we could have any fruitful conversations.

I'd love to be proven otherwise but looking at the Altay failure and how we're still using foreign turboprops I'm not convinced at all we can create a 5th generation turbofan engine which we need real soon to counter the Rafale, and soon the F-35, with zero outside help. Do you seriously think we can whip something up that took China and GE all those resources in a short time and our budget? Can we just face reality? We need air superiority solutions and we need them fast so let's the RR partnership which more valuable than gold comes through.

You're underestimating our reverse engineering capabilities We can play with F110 and produce the engines for TFX and If we're lucky enough after that point we can find a new experienced partner for our next project (Japan) for example.

Because we'll be knowing how but it will take time to know WHY. We can develop that part with a country like Japan.

If it was that easy we would've done it a long time ago. I don't think there will be any partnership with Japan as they're one of the most stringent countries when it comes to tech. We need to make sure this cooperation pulls through and gives us a reliable and powerful engine.

 

[Zafer]

Tf6000 and AB capable variant will be an indication for TEI's capabilities in durable, efficient and powerful tf engine.
However, right now there is only one company with two stealth engine models that achieved upwards of 30k lbf. Considering this, it is enormously Hard task to achieve what is targeted within 8-10 years.
Technology is improving and testing process getting faster with the help of current computing power. Same is valid for any western countries with aviation history.

They probably do not need it as much as we do. Also while there are nations their ruling class is interconnected as one mind. They are not free.

 

[Mustafa27]

I'd love to be proven otherwise but looking at the Altay failure and how we're still using foreign turboprops I'm not convinced at all we can create a 5th generation turbofan engine which we need real soon to counter the Rafale, and soon the F-35, with zero outside help. Do you seriously think we can whip something up that took China and GE all those resources in a short time and our budget? Can we just face reality? We need air superiority solutions and we need them fast so let's the RR partnership which more valuable than gold comes through.


If it was that easy we would've done it a long time ago. I don't think there will be any partnership with Japan as they're one of the most stringent countries when it comes to tech. We need to make sure this cooperation pulls through and gives us a reliable and powerful engine.

Why are you comparing engines for land vehicles to the Turbojets and etc, they are two different things and we are using foreign turboprops because there is engines that are more important that is being worked on, we will prob come back to turboprops once we have enough people for such a project.

Also the problem with Altay was that we didn't start an powerpack project at the beginning of the project(i know there was some rumors about working with Austrians but that never happened to my knowledge and also that was way after the project started) , so it failed as the Germans embargoed the engines. While, for the MMU, we did.

 

[Rodeo]

I'd love to be proven otherwise but looking at the Altay failure and how we're still using foreign turboprops I'm not convinced at all we can create a 5th generation turbofan engine which we need real soon to counter the Rafale, and soon the F-35, with zero outside help. Do you seriously think we can whip something up that took China and GE all those resources in a short time and our budget? Can we just face reality? We need air superiority solutions and we need them fast so let's the RR partnership which more valuable than gold comes through.

You're dodging the question. Name the technologies we are currently lacking that will take 25 years to develop.

And who cares about 5th gen engines. What we need is a powerful and reliable engine. The 5th gen aspect of it is welcome whenever it's ready.

Besides, Mahmut Aksit said they're studying stealth charecteristics of engines and they're gonna implement and test them on TF6000. So we will have a platform to improve stealth iteratively.

Don't get me wrong. I, too, am very keen on getting RR for engine development. It would be a guaranteed solution and would be utilized in a shorter timeframe than an indigenous engine. But we should develop our engine regardless of RR's involvement.

 

[Baryshx]

I'd love to be proven otherwise but looking at the Altay failure and how we're still using foreign turboprops I'm not convinced at all we can create a 5th generation turbofan engine which we need real soon to counter the Rafale, and soon the F-35, with zero outside help. Do you seriously think we can whip something up that took China and GE all those resources in a short time and our budget? Can we just face reality? We need air superiority solutions and we need them fast so let's the RR partnership which more valuable than gold comes through.


If it was that easy we would've done it a long time ago. I don't think there will be any partnership with Japan as they're one of the most stringent countries when it comes to tech. We need to make sure this cooperation pulls through and gives us a reliable and powerful engine.

Also, the problem in the Altay tank was the engine and transmission, it was to be imported from abroad, it was planned like this. We already had the ability to make the shell of the tank. But MMU also has an engine claim, it's not the same thing.

 

[blackjack]

All Turkey needs is a low bypass ratio engine which should be enough to cover its territory and keep the super cruise speeds, no need to be on the same engine level to get fancy 3 stream cycle engines like the other 2 countries. If they want more territory to cover in operations outside their country drones are a great idea for that.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

Name the technologies we are currently lacking that will take 25 years to develop.

Single crystal blades and thermal barrier coatings for starters. Technology that took Pratt and Whitney, and GE how many years to develop? Not talking about TS1400. Plus various other small tidbits, Mr. Mahmut Akşit himself said that they faced embargoes on fuel pumps, oil pumps, gearboxes, etc.. and that this has caused delays. I don't know which parts we can manufacture and cannot, but I'm just realistic enough to know that making an engine of that scale without outside help is not realistic.
What did it take for China to come up with WS-15? For India to come up with the failure that is Kaveri? What is the total budget for our TF-X project? Don't dodge this question now.

Don't get me wrong. I, too, am very keen on getting RR for engine development. It would be a guaranteed solution and would be utilized in a shorter time than an indigenous engine. But we should develop our engine regardless of RR's involvement.

We should definitely develop our engine. But the TF-X engine, has to be built in the near future. Which is why we NEED that involvement. Because otherwise that shorter time window will be about at least 20 years. You should accept the fact that our armed supersonic stealth jet meeting the enemy in the sky with our indigenous engine of >30,000lbfs after all the development and testing periods will need no less than that.

Also, the problem in the Altay tank was the engine and transmission, it was to be imported from abroad, it was planned like this. We already had the ability to make the shell of the tank. But MMU also has an engine claim, it's not the same thing.

The Altay tank was a real serious project for us, since we couldn't procure any more tanks due to the embargoes. Yet, it was far less complex than a turbofan, yet since 2007 a single tank is yet to be produced. How much more money and time needs to be sunk before we get to replace our aging tank fleet? And the thing is well obsolete, before it has come out yet. Looking at this, the far more complex task of developing a turbofan wholly indigenously? ..Yeah. As for your previous post, you can only crush so much money until you're broke. As for our friends so called "support", it will end up same fate as the Altay. No thanks. I do pray that the cooperation does not fall apart because if it does, with that other thing going on which I will not mention, we'll have a real predicament in our hands.

 

[Rodeo]

Can we just drop this engine discussion? This is TFX thread, not engine thread. We have discussed this problem many times at length in propulsion thread. Regurgitating the same things over and over again is a waste of time. The members who want to know more about it should visit the propulsion thread.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

By the way, the promotional video that is closest to the assembled TFX MMU prototype looks like this right now. Vertical Stabilizers are integrated into the body from the engine location and the back part rising towards the cockpit is very close to the body on the assembly line.

 

[Rodeo]

What do you think TAI will unveil tomorrow? Any guesses?

 

[Yasar_TR]

All engine and propulsion related posts have been moved to propulsion thread. Please carry on discussions there.
Lets leave this tread for TFX and trainer aircrafts.

 

[MADDOG]

By the way, the promotional video that is closest to the assembled TFX MMU prototype looks like this right now. Vertical Stabilizers are integrated into the body from the engine location and the back part rising towards the cockpit is very close to the body on the assembly line.

There are a number of differences. In the first few seconds of the video, the aircraft shown is actually pretty close to the one revealed at the Anatolian Eagle exercise. However later on, TAI performs a tiny trick and changes the design of the aircraft midway through the video. As you can clearly see, the forward fuselage is from 2017.

 

[Cypro]

By the way, the promotional video that is closest to the assembled TFX MMU prototype looks like this right now. Vertical Stabilizers are integrated into the body from the engine location and the back part rising towards the cockpit is very close to the body on the assembly line.

The gap / space between two engines get wider in compare to the Mockup and renders, I wonder the reason behind it. Could it be that national engine could be larger or wider than the F110 in the future so they left space for it, or additional weapons bay between engines, or fuel tank space (probably not) or isolating engines to reduce heat or increasing structural strength, durability. Whatever the reason that is why it looks less like F22 and more like SU-35/57 etc. And more curvy than before, I hope it does not affect RCS.

 

[Radonsider]

TF-X compared with TurAF presentation

(White lines are derived from the production pictures)

 

[Fuzuli NL]

I can't find a high quality 3view from TFX. Anyone?

 

[Quasar]

 

[Lool]

Didnt some members say that TAI prepared a surprise today?

 

[Pilatino]

Didnt some members say that TAI prepared a surprise today?

It seems they postponed it due to weather conditions.

 

[Baryshx]

It seems they postponed it due to weather conditions.

Weather can be predicted 1 week, 10 days ago

Edit = I'm in Eskişehir now, despite the bad weather, F16 and training planes are flying over my head. Also, there are sounds from TEI that don't stop for hours most days, we're used to it now, I don't know what the sound is, but it gives me a headache. My place is 50 meters from TEI