TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Devence]

Parts production is not technology transfer.For example, America gave its technology for the f16 block30 with Turkey.And turkey is developing new aesa radar and ammunition for block 30, modernizing on its own

 

[Chakib.Y]

Bro, In a world order where world is so polarized with chaos/wars and everyone creates their own camps, no one will sell their most advanced system to a country that is not of their own or to a country they do not trust. Especially in such times when the world is shaken by wars, the blocks begin to become sharper. You also know that in order to belong to the West as a Muslim state, you must accept to be servant of their interests in all conditions and prove yourself. Only then the doors will be opened to you on a limited basis. With conjuncture in this way, it will be impossible for a country with potential like Algeria to purchase a full version 5th or 6th generation aircraft from Europe or US.
That's why we will sometimes enter times when even allowing an aircraft to be sold to a country will be considered a big win for a buyer state. These aircrafts will be operational with the world's most advanced electronic warfare systems, fusion centers, AI and wingman platforms. Even if a state approves the sale of these aircraft, access to these technologies will be impossible. Probably, after 15-20 years, I believe More than 95% of world countries will not be allowed to buy aircrafts with these technologies even with their money.

I see your point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that since such technology is highend and exclusive turkey wouldn't need to make concessions like allowing technology transfers. I agree on that had it been the case, thing is the Russians are offering their stuff (which I have little trust in after their terrible performance in Ukraine) and so does the Chinese with their j-35. My point was that such transfers in their nature be it needed or not are not a loss or disadvantageous to turkey, further issues like whether it's necessary for turkey under the current international situation to make such a move is a secondary point, which from what we're seeing on the global stage is pretty much the case, if someone else is offering then they'll reap the benefits of that, because it's not a one way transaction.

 

[Chakib.Y]

Parts production is not technology transfer.For example, America gave its technology for the f16 block30 with Turkey.And turkey is developing new aesa radar and ammunition for block 30, modernizing on its own

Huh. Well I suppose I'll be taking your word for it. Thanks for the correction mate.

 

[Pilatino]

Huh. Well I suppose I'll be taking your word for it. Thanks for the correction mate.

I have a colleague from Algeria her name's Khoula and I feel very bad now for lots of unnecessary things I read here. We're brothers as Turks and Algerians we had a great history and I'm sure will have a great one in terms of cooperation. I was just trying to tell something similar to @TheInsider 's ideas but anyways. Guys let's finish this topic please? I don't want to lose our friend and look like an arrogant.

 

[Chakib.Y]

I have a colleague from Algeria her name's Khoula and I feel very bad now for lots of unnecessary things I read here. We're brothers as Turks and Algerians we had a great history and I'm sure will have a great one in terms of cooperation. I was just trying to tell something similar to @TheInsider 's ideas but anyways. Guys let's finish this topic please? I don't want to lose our friend and look like an arrogant.

Hey no hard feelings here. Debates can heat up sometimes but all is good lol. Mutual history and friendship doesn't get shaken by internet debates between strangers.

 

[Devence]

Huh. Well I suppose I'll be taking your word for it. Thanks for the correction mate.

No problem, we are happy to see you in the tfx project

 

[AzeriTank]

I'll be talking about Algeria since it's the one I know best about.

-with the Germans we've got a bunch of joint ventures like hensoldt for electrics/optronics, with rhinemetall we've got local assumbly/ manufacturing project for fuch and boxer one the fuch 2 contract expires.

-with the Italians there's an Agusta Westland choppers manufacturing project including armed versions.

-with the French there's a safran joint venture for optronics. Our btr series were upgraded using them.

-with the Americans there's gas turbines project that already started exporting whole units (case of Iraq) and spares (case of Netherlands And I think Hungary) with full tech transfer down to the software, will offer full servicing packages. Another project with falcon Harris for high end military communication systems.
(Plant for Chinese drones manufacturing, dry docks for ships manufacturing built in coop with the Chinese and Portuguese etc...)
The list goes on but you've got an idea.

Turkey is also open for technology sharing, but they want all ip rights be in Turkish hand, this is the most important project of Turkey. But im ok to share some technology, obviously Indonesia will not demand to give them tot for AESA radar or others right away. They can start with some shareable technology, that happens everywhere. Im really happy that they will join, Turkey could gain a lot from it as it will also let exports to go further. It was also good that Indonesia saw that others will not really share any technology with them in reality

 

[Xenon54]

Projects of this magintude have ballooning costs when it comes to serial production; cooperation and sharing of production load and costs will be necessary, and this cooperation will be with close and friendly nations like Azerbaijan, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Bangladesh hopefully. People here who talk as if they are experts on the industrial base and human capital potential of these countries without being able to name a city in them, sound very much like the Greek chauvinists who have no idea about capabilities of Turkey and companies like TUSAŞ, TEİ, KALE or ASELSAN and their history of cooperation with the likes of General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, Rolls Royce, etc. and the wealth of experience from technicians brought up in numerous quality technical schools in the country which have an organic bond with our industry and the fact that these companies have been making industry grade fine parts and assembling the likes of f16s and f110 engines for decades. Just like they have no clue about Turkey's history and industrial base and capacities, you have no clue about Malaysia, Indonesia and Pakistan; educate yourself then you will not have childish claims that these 200 million strong nations have nothing to contribute in terms of production capacities or human capital. Stupid.

Well the problem is Turkey is not in a position to choose the friendly nations for cooperation, whether we like it or not we are, and will stay for the forseeable future, dependant on the west.
Even if TF-X gets the fully indigenous engine and avionics there are other areas where we are dependant, In short we can only have those as partners whoever USA sees as friendly too and that eliminates a lot of Turkeys friends.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I see your point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that since such technology is highend and exclusive turkey wouldn't need to make concessions like allowing technology transfers. I agree on that had it been the case, thing is the Russians are offering their stuff (which I have little trust in after their terrible performance in Ukraine) and so does the Chinese with their j-35. My point was that such transfers in their nature be it needed or not are not a loss or disadvantageous to turkey, further issues like whether it's necessary for turkey under the current international situation to make such a move is a secondary point, which from what we're seeing on the global stage is pretty much the case, if someone else is offering then they'll reap the benefits of that, because it's not a one way transaction.

Bro, It is very important how and for what purpose we actually use the term "technology transfer". Making certain productions of the structures that make an aircraft fuselage can also be considered as "technology transfer", and multi-axis precision CNC benches are enough for this. Maintenance and repair operations also require a certain knowledge and assembly work and it is enough to train the personnel together with the plans of the aircraft structures.

Around the world, ToT expression is often used to teach what to assemble and how. This is what Turkiye did with F16 production or MEKO frigates production...etc Part production examples are F110 engines, F35 mid fuselage. All critical technology packages come ready made abroad and you assemble them in your own production facility for F16 or Meko's. If design engineering capability has reached a certain maturity, something can be learned from Assembly by taking inspiration from the design lines, but From the assembly of the F16 to the Hürjet prototype, 48 years passed for Turkiye.

But in reality, Comprehensive Technology transfers (US-Israel and US-S.Korea) is a job of teaching a company that has reached certain maturity in many engineering fields in full detail about what is done, how is done and why is done. For example, If ToT is requested for an AESA radar, it requires talent in many engineering disciplines, as well as very strong capabilities in the field of software, semiconductors, Rf power amplifiers, integrated circuits and deep knowledge in the field of cooling systems as an industrial infrastructure. It is not possible to produce a product without specializing in all these areas. Therefore, we need to know what we use the ToT expression for and how we use it.

It took 32 years from the first radar produced in Turkiye to the development of the Murad aircraft AESA radar. In other words, since 32 years, Turkiye has strengthened its infrastructure to reach this level and trained its brain power. If there was a country which was willing to share radar tech with us, This time period could be reduced to maybe 15 years. When a country wants to have the all aspects of this radar technology, it will not be possible for given technology to create a potential product without bringing the maturity level of target industry and engineering team to this level. Besides, I do not think that 32 years of experience and effort have a monetary value, so I say no one will share the core technologies that make aircrafts potent with anybody so In this context, in this discussion, we need to emphasize more effectively what is meant by the technology transfer request for TFX.

 

[Afif]

In my opinion, when it come to potential future buyers or cooproducers of tfx, Pakistan and Indonesia are unlikely name.

First and foremost, when it comes to pakistan, there are two fundemantel factors, one is the technical dimension of pakistan 5th gen fighter procurement. Another one is the political dimension.

1. When it comes to near future status of Pakistan's air force, with the induction new 50 jf17 block iii and ( potential ) 72 j10c, the backbone of PAF almost predominantly becoming a combination of Chinese-indigenous elements.
So in the future, induction completely new Nato standard 5th gen aircraft would be costly and time consuming with the establishment of new insfrustucture and logistical supply chain and trainings.
But, more importantly, Turkey will never allow Pakistan to integrate TFX with Chinese aircraft through data link and network distribution.
Which is a critical requirement for Pakistan air force as it needs to stand as one big integrated structure when it comes against IAF, because of its much smaller size compared IAF.
And in that case, if they cannot integrate their 5th gen elements with other 4.5 gen elements it would be very problematic for PAF.
Now, when it comes the second candidate for PAF's 5th gen requirement, J35 got a better chance to win.
Because in that case, it is likely that, china will offer some TOT and joint production lile they did with jf17s.
which would be immensely beneficial for pakistan's domestic industry.
and more importantly, j35 can be completely integrated with jf17 block iii and j10c.

2. Secondly the political dimension.
when it comes to geopolitical and geoeconomic support against India, china is in much better position compared to Turkey. Specially, in the next 10/15 years when India's economy will grow much bigger, realistically speaking Turkey won't be able to hold tough positions against India to please Pakistan anymore.
On the other hand, China can extend it's geopolitical and geoeconomic support against India much better as it will have the capability to do so.

Now when, it comes to Indonesia, they got much better deal with South Korea at that stage with KF21. ( as Ismail Demir recently said, there won't any leverage for potential partners in TFX project anymore at this point )
So, if Indonesia produces 50 KF21 block i/ii and continue the program with South korea, they can get a 5th gen block iii and produce them locally with lot of leverage and advantages. ( and i believe KF21 Has good potential to mature a lot and becomes true 5th gen fighter )

In my personal opinion, these are seems to be the likely scenario for now, but off course, anything can change in the future.

In the name list of potential TFXs buyers, BD and Malaysia got a good chance.
I think, in that case there will be some indication from Malaysia with its choice of HURJET or T50.

when it comes to the almost guaranteed buyers of TFX, it would Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan and Qatar.

other than that, any deal with gulf or north African countries will solely depend on circumstances .

 

[Huelague]

In the end, we need strong partners in every aspect. And if their is no one right now, we have to build our close alies to that level.

 

[Huelague]

Every country needs weapons, and this is one of the most critical weapons one can get, that already gives Turkey the 'influence and alliances' card. TF-X will be in standards that of a NATO country.

Fun.


That was how you put it, as if the countries that joined the JSF where or are somehow akin to those of algeria for example, who maybe should and can join The TF-X program if the right 'offer' is offered.

Funny.


Just like how they and you wanted and got our drones, you will commit because you need them, that's how you get tied up, you are in need, because you are incapable of making it yourself, or get it somewhere else with the same offer. Because we do not need you, you need us IF, that comes down to it. Know your place in the food chain.

Very funny.


Increasingly funny.

Congratulation!!
Spooken like a wannebe white privileged. You are the first one, who cries if real privileged white dudes do same with you. And laught on you. What a shame. For a TURK.

 

[Boz]

Congratulation!!
Spooken like a wannebe white privileged. You are the first one, who cries if real privileged white dudes do same with you. And laught on you. What a shame. For a TURK.

I don't know what 'white privileged' means and more importantly as the matter already ended, I will not comment further.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Fleet structure that will form the backbone of Turkish air force 10 years later.

Note: The TISU image was chosen as the closest render to the image shared by TUSAŞ roadway. It is not official image of TISU

 

[Avanti]

MMU is a prestige project and if it succeeds the whole world will see Turks and Turkey in a different light. If any other country is involved you can be sure they will try to talk down the success of Turkey again.

They already do with Turkish drones, mainstream media picks up on imported parts in Turkish products and say "the Turks can't do it their products rely on other countries to provide the critical parts". TF-X was also treated like the Iranian 6th gen fighter by westerners. When the plane is in mass production some will cope with "it's just a f22 clone" some will close their eyes but i feel like Turkey making a fighter on this level on it's own will show the whole world that the age of western monopoly is done and gone

 

[Mustafa27]

still bit curious about TF1118 that was on the picture.
TF is probably TURBOFAN but i wonder what the 1118 is for?

 

[Windchime]

Ismail Demir has made a good remark on this matter:
"We are moving on the certain projects whether or not the partners are taking a seat with us. These projects will move on with them, or without. Thus, there is no leverage as it was available in the beginning of these projects, as these are becoming nationally critical projects with the current conjecture".

You might possibly know what kind of leverage was offered to certain possible partners to lure them into the project, those are not available anymore.

The thing is, partners are primarily risk sharers, quite evidently shown by various RSP programs that are very common throughout the aerospace industry. Then, if you ask me if the risk involved in the MMU program has changed all that mich since, say a year ago, I'd say it really didn't change all that much. As we all know, most of the delays, cost overruns and reassessment of requirements in aircraft development program happens during prototyping and testing phase, especially the latter, which MMU is still to reach.

So in that sense, a foreign partner would still be a sufficient risk-sharer even if they join the MMU program now. Well, from a potential partner's perspective, the prototype could be a physical manifestation of Türkiye's drive for the program so there could be less risk in joining the program in that regard.

Anyways, I think what Ismail Demir really meant is that Turkey is fully commited, irrespective of the risks involved. Obviously if the developer doesn't mind the risk, any potential partner loses their leverage as a risk-sharer regardless of the size of the risk in such case.

Moreover, I think it was great for Türkiye and MMU that they haven't had any partners. Not because of the ToT and production issues other members are pointing out, but because of the overall project definition. You guys would remember how the size of MMU constantly changed to suit THK needs as the situation THK was in changed over the years. Had there been a development partner early on, they definitely would have objected such drastic changes to the program.

 

[Windchime]

Indonesia was excluded from the program for not making the necessary payments. What is the guarantee that you will pay us regularly? And what kind of partnership will there be after this stage?

They are not excluded from the program and Korea probably will not exclude them even the payment continues to not arrive. They made it clear that there are necessary clarification within the project agreement framework and contract for when there's a problem concerning program partner's participation/engagement.

We paid

Indonesia resumes payment for joint fighter development project with S. Korea | Yonhap News Agency

JAKARTA, Nov. 2 (Yonhap) -- Indonesia has resumed payment for its share of the cost for a ...

m-en.yna.co.kr

The payment has resumed, but Indonesia is still paying a fraction compared to what they should have and and should be paying. The total transaction planned for this and next year is not even half the due yearly payment.

They are still not showong full commitment and I don't think this will change unless a new administration arrives.

IIRC, there was a disagreement between Korea and Indonesia involving the export rights on domestically manufactured aircraft (or did it involve any planes manufactured) on KF21 rather than lagging payments. please feel free to correct and fill me up, it’s a bit hazy now.

Every clause were clarified, twice in fact. Once at the initial signing of the agreement when the project officially launched, which is nearing a decade ago. The other when a renegotiatiom reached the agreement. Not fullfiling the renegotiated terms that chanved in their favor really leaves a bad taste.


Sorry for going off-topic. We can discuss further on the KF-X thread.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Let me tell you some things about technology transfer.be able to develop the aircraft, install their own ammunition and aesa radar makin modernization.Sharing all processes until the aircraft is developed with the other party.Co-production and technology transfer are very different things.Turkey produced over 2000 parts for the f35.but America did not give its technology.you're confusing technology transfer and co-production

 

[Anmdt]

Moreover, I think it was great for Türkiye and MMU that they haven't had any partners. Not because of the ToT and production issues other members are pointing out, but because of the overall project definition. You guys would remember how the size of MMU constantly changed to suit THK needs as the situation THK was in changed over the years. Had there been a development partner early on, they definitely would have objected such drastic changes to the program.

Demir has told following a meeting with a possible partner, whom was invited after PDR has begun and platform description was clear and TurAF has settled with their requirements. Yes, it is also indicates the project will continue irrespective of presence of a partner, however it was also delivering a message to that possible partner that neither their financial share, nor the engineering services they would provide, was a matter for the project. Since, that possible partner has started to gain an attitude which they were both acting as if sharing half of the financial burden and as if providing a critical tech or know-how with their share of the engineering.

For the rest, you are right.