TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Chakib.Y]

I'm glad you understood. Very few countries make 5 gen fighter and sell and or are willing to sell them. Very few countries have something to offer at this level.


The drones was an example to make it clear, this is about our most strategic weapon, a 5th gen fighter. The trump card is with the maker not with 'allies' of the maker.

There is indeed a food chain, have been will always be. One should now it's, place, in the chain.


Mirthful.

1-eh m not sure what you mean by understood because I only reaffirmed a previously made point, but alright mate sure thing.

2-You really like your natgeo analogies eh lol. Alright bud let's call it a food chain. Still won't change the fact that the two countries both got mutual interests which they can use as leverage against one another with Algeria having an greater edge in its local region. Or would you deny that too ?

 

[Chakib.Y]

Obviously, project partners and technology transfers will become clear before the aircraft is under construction.There can be co-production in terms of reducing costs and accelerating production.However, no state gives the technology of the aircraft it has developed for the 5th generation.
Talking about technology transfer for a state that is not even a partner in the project is ridiculous.

Not necessarily, you've got examples all over the world for that on every level, sure it's not as prevalent with aeronautics but it exists (Chinese and their j-35 being offered with tech transfer prospects, India and the su-30, you guys and your f-16s with the Americans and your altay tank with the Koreans). The method of said transfers would be up to the negotiating parties to determine but to rule it out completely as unprecedented and absurd is, well, absurd.

 

[Oublious]

A possible Indonesian- Turkish partnership concerning the TF-X could be on the table. Take it with a pinch of salt, as Anıl Şahin could've meant something different.



View attachment 50883

They didn't removed, insteed Indonesian flag they have used Indonesian defenceministers or airforce logo. Indonesia is stil a partner of KFX.

 

[Boz]

1-eh m not sure what you mean by understood because I only reaffirmed a previously made point, but alright mate sure thing.

Marvelous.

2-You really like your natgeo analogies eh lol. Alright bud let's call it a food chain.

It's not something 'we' call. It is what it is.

Still won't change the fact that the two countries both got mutual interests which they can use as leverage against one another

Having some 'mutual interest' does not equal a 5th gen fighter, which is what we are talking about.

with Algeria having an greater edge in its local region. Or would you deny that too ?

I have not been denying anything,

 

[TheInsider]

Chakib is right we should get countries like Algeria on board but I don't think tech transfer is magic. Algeria and similar countries need years and investments in technology institutions, universities, competent workforce, and production capability to absorb the technology. You can't just start to make engines if Turkiye gives the blueprint of the TF-35000.
IMHO we can offer a maintenance center for the engine of TFX. Workshare/part production of the engine/accessories. Engines have a lot of parts and a good company with a good CNC machine park can manufacture a lot of parts for the engine. This will be a good starting point to set up a turbine engine industry. This is how we started and after several decades we are at the current level.
We can offer a pilot education and training center.
We can offer composite/structural part production. This tech can be imported fairly easily without huge investments in existing infrastructure. This will give the capability to produce aviation-level composites with very tight tolerances. IMHO this is a must and base for anything whether for civilian use, missile or UAV production, or fighter production.

Things like AESA radars and IIR detectors can't be transferred even if we agree. Those have to start with education investment at the university level to develop the workforce entire companies should be created with high-tech machine parks and a competent workforce.

 

[Chakib.Y]

Chakib is right we should get countries like Algeria on board but I don't think tech transfer is magic. Algeria and similar countries need years and investments in technology institutions, universities, competent workforce, and production capability to absorb the technology. You can't just start to make engines if Turkiye gives the blueprint of the TF-35000.
IMHO we can offer a maintenance center for the engine of TFX. Workshare/part production of the engine/accessories. Engines have a lot of parts and a good company with a good CNC machine park can manufacture a lot of parts for the engine. This will be a good starting point to set up a turbine engine industry. This is how we started and after several decades we are at the current level.
We can offer a pilot education and training center.
We can offer composite/structural part production. This tech can be imported fairly easily without huge investments in existing infrastructure. This will give the capability to produce aviation-level composites with very tight tolerances. IMHO this is a must and base for anything whether for civilian use, missile or UAV production, or fighter production.

Things like AESA radars and IIR detectors can't be transferred even if we agree. Those have to start with education investment at the university level to develop the workforce entire companies should be created with high-tech machine parks and a competent workforce.

100% agree here, the stuff you're talking about are technicalities that are determined by the negotiating parties, my qualm was about the complete rejection of technical cooperation in this regard and viewing it as a "taking advantage of" or a detriment to the offering state which is completely wrong. That's my premise.

 

[Boz]

IMHO we can offer a maintenance center for the engine of TFX. Workshare/part production of the engine/accessories.

Sure.

The ridiculous thing is the talks of tech transfers and such when it comes to TF-X.

 

[Chakib.Y]

Marvelous.


It's not something 'we' call. It is what it is.


Having some 'mutual interest' does not equal a 5th gen fighter, which is what we are talking about.


I have not been denying anything, I have been educating you on the way things are.

2-my guy, acceptence of the fact that what comes bellow you can cost your proverbial knees with next to no losses for him sort of completely refutes the basis for the food chain argument.

 

[Afif]

If there is new partners in TFX project at that stage it would be financial as @I_Love_F16 pointed out.

However, if right circumstances appear ( not sure ) Turkey may give TOT for spare parts to some it's closest allies who may buy the aircraft in big numbers and want to keep them operational locally.

However, It will require high level of mutual trust, which is not seen between Turkey and any other state yet. But probably in the long term future.

 

[Boz]

If there is new partners in TFX project at that stage it would be financial as @I_Love_F16 pointed out.

However, if right circumstances appear ( not sure ) Turkey may give TOT for spare parts to some it's closest allies who may buy the aircraft in big numbers and want to keep them operational locally.

However, It will require high level of mutual trust, which is not seen between Turkey and any other state yet. But probably in the long term future.

Agreed.

 

[Devence]

Not necessarily, you've got examples all over the world for that on every level, sure it's not as prevalent with aeronautics but it exists (Chinese and their j-35 being offered with tech transfer prospects, India and the su-30, you guys and your f-16s with the Americans and your altay tank with the Koreans). The method of said transfers would be up to the negotiating parties to determine but to rule it out completely as unprecedented and absurd is, well, absurd.

su30 and f16 4th gen aircraft,also Türkiye take tank motor technology not all of tank.It's delusional to want the technology transfer of a 5th generation aircraft.no one will give you the project technology they spent 25-30 billion dollars.Türkiye will agree on joint production and maintenance

 

[TheInsider]

Sure.

The ridiculous thing is the talks of tech transfers and such when it comes to TF-X.

Some countries can get different deals. For example, Malaysia can get hardware part of the onboard electronics, computers, or workshare from the AESA radar. This depends and negotiating parties what their capabilities are how much we are willing to give how much they can absorb with their infrastructure and workforce but closing the door is not good for business.

 

[Boz]

Some countries can get different deals. For example, Malaysia can get hardware part of the onboard electronics computers or workshare from the AESA radar. This depends and negotiating parties what their capabilities are how much we are willing to give how much they can absorb with their infrastructure workforce but closing the door is not good.

It would be possible that Hürjet could be part of such negotiations with Malaysia if that occurs.

 

[Chakib.Y]

Don't get too stuck on that. Other points were also made previously and lastly.

Your premise was: Algeria needs us hence they're in the inferior place.

My reply was such thing doesn't exist since both function on the basis of mutual interest. After that you moved the goal post to such mutual interests don't mean a 5th gen fighter. Well this is up for the negotiations parties, However, I've already made the point previously that such fighter would be a grantor of alliance, and long term cooperation, because if turkey wouldn't make that offer or wasn't willing to accept it, someone else would be, as I said before on that very same comment, politics are driven by interests, not paper signed loyalties or "positions on the food chains".

 

[Chakib.Y]

su30 and f16 4th gen aircraft,also Türkiye take tank motor technology not all of tank.It's delusional to want the technology transfer of a 5th generation aircraft.no one will give you the project technology they spent 25-30 billion dollars.Türkiye will agree on joint production and maintenance

Hold on. When I say tech transfer what do you think I mean exactly? Lol. Pretty certain I didn't mean how to make the thing from the first rivet to the last integrated circuit. I know the country's limitations and restrictions, the point was about having turkey contribute in building up the technological and industrial base required to develop such hardware through mutual production of certain components (in a formula that is beneficial for both parties), not the entire thing... Thought that was clear when I used the American f-35 and then the following examples...

 

[Chakib.Y]

Still is.


It's all there to be read if I moved any 'goal posts'. 'Mutual interest' does still not equal a 5th gen fighter.



Since it's all going circles with you I'm just gonna quote one of my previous replies:

Yup it is going full circle, using the same argument despite being refuted three times in three different ways is a waste for both parties time. Have a good one pal.

 

[Devence]

Hold on. When I say tech transfer what do you think I mean exactly? Lol. Pretty certain I didn't mean how to make the thing from the first rivet to the last integrated circuit. I know the country's limitations and restrictions, the point was about having turkey contribute in building up the technological and industrial base required to develop such hardware through mutual production of certain components (in a formula that is beneficial for both parties), not the entire thing... Thought that was clear when I used the American f-35 and then the following examples...

Let me tell you some things about technology transfer.be able to develop the aircraft, install their own ammunition and aesa radar makin modernization.Sharing all processes until the aircraft is developed with the other party.Co-production and technology transfer are very different things.Turkey produced over 2000 parts for the f35.but America did not give its technology.you're confusing technology transfer and co-production

 

[Boz]

Yup it is going full circle, using the same argument despite being refuted three times in three different ways is a waste for both parties time.

It's all there to be read if *any* argument was refuted.

Have a good one pal.

Thank you very much dear, you too.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Well if we're approaching it from angle of personal tastes and likings sure thing bud you've got every right for outrage, however if you're approaching it from an economic/political angle, my guy you're not richer than the US who needed to share the f-35 program with multiple countries to lower the costs not do you have an as big alliances network that is organically integrated in your industry to ensure a long term cooperation and mutual benefit, sharing technology isn't charity, rather a necessary investment because if you're not willing, someone else might make that offer and it will cost you big time.

Bro, In a world order where world is so polarized with chaos/wars and everyone creates their own camps, no one will sell their most advanced system to a country that is not of their own or to a country they do not trust. Especially in such times when the world is shaken by wars, the blocks begin to become sharper. You also know that in order to belong to the West as a Muslim state, you must accept to be servant of their interests in all conditions and prove yourself. Only then the doors will be opened to you on a limited basis. With conjuncture in this way, it will be impossible for a country with potential like Algeria to purchase a full version 5th or 6th generation aircraft from Europe or US.
That's why we will sometimes enter times when even allowing an aircraft to be sold to a country will be considered a big win for a buyer state. These aircrafts will be operational with the world's most advanced electronic warfare systems, fusion centers, radars, HD optics, AI and wingman platforms. Even if a state approves the sale of these aircraft, access to these technologies will be impossible. Probably, after 15-20 years, I believe More than 95% of world countries will not be allowed to buy aircrafts with these technologies even with their money so Rafales, Eurofighters and F16 Block 100s will continue to sell like cheese in future too.

 

[Chakib.Y]

Let me tell you some things about technology transfer.be able to develop the aircraft, install their own ammunition and aesa radar makin modernization.Sharing all processes until the aircraft is developed with the other party.Co-production and technology transfer are very different things.Turkey produced over 2000 parts for the f35.but America did not give its technology.you're confusing technology transfer and co-production

If you've got any links concerning the distinctions I'd appreciate it if you shared.

Thought tech transfer entailed transfering of certain technologies used in the building and development of the hardware to certain extents agreed upon by the negotiating parties (construction methods of some parts and the engineering concerning them). Not a blueprint on how2make tfx at home.pdf lol