TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Knowledgeseeker]

Buying F-35's are one thing operating them are another. I remember one Israeli Airforce General's interview about the F-35 planes. He said that F35's wont adopt to the Airforce's System. They will change the Entire Airforce for the F-35 because of the Networking and next generation Combat operations. Lets remember that Greece operates F16's for god knows how long. But they are still not capable Joint combat operations like we do. So buying F35's wont be as deadly as we might think. But we do need extra planes.

How do you know that Greece are not capable of joint combat operations like Turkey can conduct? Have not the greece air force trained with Nato, the americans, and the israelis for such a long time? Or are you maybe refering to combat experience?

 

[B_A]

not buying anything is also a risky bet the power balance between tr and gr has shifted in favour of greece with this order if it goes through, no need to further argue this its a fact until KE-B enters service even then how a KE will hold up against a f35 is a different subject + in the case of a potential war they will not be alone we will also face France in a best case scenario. Israel is already superior to us in terms of Air Force. No need to sugarcoat this , neither akinci or tb2 are sufficient in air combat we have neglected the air force. The very best case scenario for tf-x to enter service is 2027 and this is if everything pans out better than planned. 4 years is a heck of a long time just in 2022 global tension has increased drastically some countries at the verge of war ( balkans taiwan s.korea etc.) and some have even waged war. We need reinforcements for the air force , the country of origin or model doesnt matter . Exclude france and US they will only delay us , Eurofighters are a good call but the logisitcs/infrastructure are gonna be a pain in the... domestic products are also going to need further adjustment i assume . we could even attempt to buy the F18s the swiss are trying to retire . All considered its a sticky situation , not going to lie though i would love to see the F15EX with TUAF roundlets

Wasn’t Israel, already superior to us in terms of Air Force, since 1970s?

 

[Tonyukuk]

This is just going to end with more blackmailing.

"Don't hit our SDF allies in Syria or else we won't deliver your F-16s"

Let's triple down on Kizilelma as a stopgap and also speed up indigenous upgrades for our F-16s.

We need domestic engines ready ASAP. The sooner TFX with TF-35000/TF-40000 is ready the better. Then they will no longer have anything to blackmail us with.

 

[YeşilVatan]

This is just going to end with more blackmailing.

"Don't hit our SDF allies in Syria or else we won't deliver your F-16s"

Let's triple down on Kizilelma as a stopgap and also speed up indigenous upgrades for our F-16s.

We need domestic engines ready ASAP.

IF Kızılelma turns out great and produced in high numbers that ca happen. realistically the chance of that happening before 2026-27 is really low. But after that I am sure KE would be real piece that will decimate 4th gen planes, especially eastern ones.

Of course a little disclaimer: KE might revolutionize air combat the way TB2 revolutionized CAS and COIN in a very short timeframe. If that happens I'm gonna buy a photo of selçuk and build a little home shrine dedicated to him. (No homo)

 

[Kedikesenfare]

"As I have repeatedly made clear, I strongly oppose the Biden administration’s proposed sale of new F-16 aircraft to Turkey," Senator Bob Menendez, Democratic chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said in a statement.

While the sale is still in the informal review process, Congress is also unlikely to approve the sale as long as Turkey refuses to proceed with the ratification of Sweden and Finland's NATO membership.

Top U.S. lawmaker objects to potential F-16 sale to Turkey

The Biden administration has told Congress it is preparing the potential $20 billion sale of F-16 fighter jets to Turkey, sources familiar with the matter said on Friday, sparking an immediate objection from a senior U.S. lawmaker who has long opposed the deal.

www.reuters.com

 

[Baryshx]

How do you know that Greece are not capable of joint combat operations like Turkey can conduct? Have not the greece air force trained with Nato, the americans, and the israelis for such a long time? Or are you maybe refering to combat experience?

If we are buying airplanes because of Greece, this is pathetic. I can understand the threat of Russia, Iran and Israel, but Greece makes me laugh. What is Greece going to do, declare war on us when it gets the F35s?

I think the Greek agenda is created by the Turkish media and the defense industry media. Any sane person knows that Greece is not our interlocutor.

 

[Bmx98]

If we are buying airplanes because of Greece, this is pathetic. I can understand the threat of Russia, Iran and Israel, but Greece makes me laugh. What is Greece going to do, declare war on us when it gets the F35s?

I think the Greek agenda is created by the Turkish media and the defense industry media. Any sane person knows that Greece is not our interlocutor.

You think Iran whose equipment is mostly cold war era crap is a legitimate threat, but Greece which has some of the latest generation tanks and fighter jets and is governed by far right ultranationalists who have genocidal tendencies against Turks is a lesser threat.

 

[Pilatino]

This is just going to end with more blackmailing.

"Don't hit our SDF allies in Syria or else we won't deliver your F-16s"

Let's triple down on Kizilelma as a stopgap and also speed up indigenous upgrades for our F-16s.

We need domestic engines ready ASAP. The sooner TFX with TF-35000/TF-40000 is ready the better. Then they will no longer have anything to blackmail us with.

Adamsın! The thoughts that I was looking for at last... Guys, we've already watched this film . At the end they got the money and we got the shame. The movie was a hit in the amaricas and middle east so the fans wants to see a sequel now. The main theme is the same, they'll get the money and then tell us that "we've parked the Vipers next to your F35 lol but we can't do it for free, pay us for the parking lot."... Hollywood is ready for the movie the only thing they need is actor's attendance. Will we attend?

 

[dBSPL]

Both the sale of F-35s to Greece and F-16s to Turkiye are included in the same package in the presidential motion submitted for approval. In this case, Turkiye should take steps to prevent the US from passing this bill in Congress. We can modernize the F-16s built-in-house, but Greece is directly dependent on foreign sources for aircraft.

For example, as soon as the F-35 sale to Greece is approved, concrete steps can be taken to purchase nuclear-propelled submarines and J20/J35s from China. In fact, these negotiations could be initiated by citing the F-35 sale to Greece as a justification and announcing that TR will be signing of a contract with China once the sale to F-35s is finalized. The goal here is not to go out and buy Chinese systems directly, but to show that if the US sells the F-35 to Greece, the balance of defense in the region, which was in favor of the US, will now irreversibly turn against the US, In case the bids are not leveled.

In the event that Greece receives the F-35, the range for these deliveries is 2027-2029. This is exactly when the first block deliveries of the MMU will take place. The US security bureaucracy is very cleverly setting up the game. We must get rid of the F-110s as soon as possible.

 

[zio]

If we are buying airplanes because of Greece, this is pathetic. I can understand the threat of Russia, Iran and Israel, but Greece makes me laugh. What is Greece going to do, declare war on us when it gets the F35s?

I think the Greek agenda is created by the Turkish media and the defense industry media. Any sane person knows that Greece is not our interlocutor.

If you get weaker greece will extend 12 miles on island sea

 

[Baryshx]

If you get weaker greece will extend 12 miles on island sea

That's what I mean, they have to declare war on Turkiye for this.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Interesting idea eye for an eye, I liked it.

The USA will black list all Turkish defence industries from working with western companies.

The s400 was a typical dumb short sighted move from ak party, no foresight and now their scrambling. The USA is a super power on the other side on earth, it doesn't lose much losing Turkey and since she wants to build her PKKistan at some point they know we are to become a direct enemy. They like to take the incremental boiling frog approach, that's much easier for them. But they couldn't give a shit if they lost Turkey right now.

Always keep in mind that under FETO influence we were meant to give up the south east to kurdistan willingly. That was their first plan to make our own country break up our country. Remember the islamist illusion of a greater ottoman state was really about getting the Turks used to the idea of autonomy for the kurds. Remember how free the pkk were made, Ocalan promoted as a hero all Turkish signs and symbols destroyed and removed from the south east. The americans were getting us to do their work for them.

The USA has a million eyes, losing one or two won't effect them, but it will blind Turkey.

Ultimatly all of this has its roos in the failed syria policy from AK party. They got their kurdistan in Iraq and they used Turkey to protect it and feed, they finally got their kurdistan in syria, now the time time is for them to get it from Turkey. so while they were getting it from iraq and syria, they kept Turkey onboard, now we are effectively to become the target.

But play stupid games win stupid prizes. Spend years talking with these clowns thinking they will give you something is so dumb, you have to break their backs in syria, to win the long term game at a short term cost. But if you keep sleeping on syria you will endure the short term nonsense while losing the long term game.

But whats really killing us is the lack of foresight and indecision from our leadership, all the we can come suddenly one night destroyed any perceived threat we could bring. But if you tolerate shit you end up with shitty results.

You made the decision to buy the shitty s400 only for the Russians to afterwoods directly kill our troops and then advertise it to the world when erdogan tried to hide it. BTW that sent a big message to world leaders as to what erdogan is. Anyway, its clear they didnt think of the day after the s400 purchase.

And ofcourse they will sell F35 to your enemies, the main reason you buy american shit is to hold some kind of parity with your enemies in which they will sell such weapons too.

You want to break these plans you sweep into northern syria, you endure the short term cost but you break their legs there. This is why the americans even threatened to attack under Trump when we moved on the east, because they also know that if they lose the north to Turkey, their plans are put back 50 years. Right now whats killing us is inaction over northern syria.

 

[Chocopie]

Both the sale of F-35s to Greece and F-16s to Turkiye are included in the same package in the presidential motion submitted for approval. In this case, Turkiye should take steps to prevent the US from passing this bill in Congress. We can modernize the F-16s built-in-house, but Greece is directly dependent on foreign sources for aircraft.

For example, as soon as the F-35 sale to Greece is approved, concrete steps can be taken to purchase nuclear-propelled submarines and J20/J35s from China. In fact, these negotiations could be initiated by citing the F-35 sale to Greece as a justification and announcing that TR will be signing of a contract with China once the sale to F-35s is finalized. The goal here is not to go out and buy Chinese systems directly, but to show that if the US sells the F-35 to Greece, the balance of defense in the region, which was in favor of the US, will now irreversibly turn against the US, In case the bids are not leveled.

In the event that Greece receives the F-35, the range for these deliveries is 2027-2029. This is exactly when the first block deliveries of the MMU will take place. The US security bureaucracy is very cleverly setting up the game. We must get rid of the F-110s as soon as possible.

Procuring Chinese fighter aircraft (SSN isn‘t realistic IMO, even the Chinese doesn‘t export them) would mean changing the whole NATO oriented ecosystem (communications, missiles, maintenance, training etc.). Is that feasible? The US wouldn‘t believe such a drastic step.

Türkiye would have to seriously declare end of NATO membership to gain leverage. This would have serious geopolitical implications as well and further isolate Turkey. The Chinese will try to use Türkiye for their own purposes: They are even worse than Americans projecting economic and military power by exploiting weaknesses of other states. Just my 2 cents.

 

[dBSPL]

The USA will black list all Turkish defence industries from working with western companies.

The s400 was a typical dumb short sighted move from ak party, no foresight and now their scrambling. The USA is a super power on the other side on earth, it doesn't lose much losing Turkey and since she wants to build her PKKistan at some point they know we are to become a direct enemy. They like to take the incremental boiling frog approach, that's much easier for them. But they couldn't give a shit if they lost Turkey right now.

Always keep in mind that under FETO influence we were meant to give up the south east to kurdistan willingly. That was their first plan to make our own country break up our country. Remember the islamist illusion of a greater ottoman state was really about getting the Turks used to the idea of autonomy for the kurds. Remember how free the pkk were made, Ocalan promoted as a hero all Turkish signs and symbols destroyed and removed from the south east. The americans were getting us to do their work for them.

The USA has a million eyes, losing one or two won't effect them, but it will blind Turkey.

Ultimatly all of this has its roos in the failed syria policy from AK party. They got their kurdistan in Iraq and they used Turkey to protect it and feed, they finally got their kurdistan in syria, now the time time is for them to get it from Turkey. so while they were getting it from iraq and syria, they kept Turkey onboard, now we are effectively to become the target.

But play stupid games win stupid prizes. Spend years talking with these clowns thinking they will give you something is so dumb, you have to break their backs in syria, to win the long term game at a short term cost. But if you keep sleeping on syria you will endure the short term nonsense while losing the long term game.

But whats really killing us is the lack of foresight and indecision from our leadership, all the we can come suddenly one night destroyed any perceived threat we could bring. But if you tolerate shit you end up with shitty results.

You made the decision to buy the shitty s400 only for the Russians to afterwoods directly kill our troops and then advertise it to the world when erdogan tried to hide it. BTW that sent a big message to world leaders as to what erdogan is. Anyway, its clear they didnt think of the day after the s400 purchase.

And ofcourse they will sell F35 to your enemies, the main reason you buy american shit is to hold some kind of parity with your enemies in which they will sell such weapons too.

You want to break these plans you sweep into northern syria, you endure the short term cost but you break their legs there. This is why the americans even threatened to attack under Trump when we moved on the east, because they also know that if they lose the north to Turkey, their plans are put back 50 years. Right now whats killing us is inaction over northern syria.

The US cannot justify this. It has to legislate about it or declare China a hostile country and put it under CAATSA. Chinese defense companies have very intricate organizational structures. In such a case, the US economy would also suffer serious damage. On the other hand What I am talking about is not the purchase of the Chinese system, but to show that the potential consequences of the game the US is playing will become apparent very soon. So it is a diplomacy of persuasion.

If the US will eventually throw you from its ship(the basic logic of your article is based on this acceptance, and I totally agree), that is, if this is inevitable, how strategically correct is it to leave the timing of this to the US?

If a confrontation is inevitable, the advantage will go to the side that can determine the timing and location(area of interests) of the confrontation on its own terms. So we need to acquire the tools to manipulate the other side. Again, what I am talking about is not an unconditional alliance agreement with China. But we have to think about what it might mean for the United States if China enters the Mediterranean.

 

[Baryshx]

Turkiye needs to teach Greece a lesson, we need to create the conditions for that. Let them declare 12 miles, it will be a good excuse for us. In this way, Greece should realize what a big mistake and dream it is in. Just like Armenia has realized...

 

[Cypro]

Biden administration is obviously trying to find a way to sell F16 in order not to lose Turkiye and so, Greek F35 and Turkish F16 sales are going to the congress at the same time. The costs mentioned are roughly calculated values. The actual price will be calculated in the negotiations to be held for contract to be signed later.

After approval and contract signing, 79 F16 modernization will probably be done at TAI facilities with kits from LM and can be completed in a short time. Negotiations continue for the production of 40 F16V by TAI. Some of offset lost in F35' project can be compensated a little bit thanks to this project.

In the meantime, our Air Force's dependence on US maintenance and munitions with this sale will continue for a while but I think this purchase is a need as an intermediate solution.

The fleet structure that will be formed in final situation is;

• 79 F16V(Upgrade) with AIM120D BVR and APG83 GaAs
• 40 F16V (new) with AIM120D and APG83 GaAs
• 30 + (max.160 F16s as per December SSIK decision to go ahead with national F16 modernization) F16T with Gökdoğan B1/2, Gökhan B1/2 BVR and Murad GaN and FEWS EW maybe!

Total ~275-280 state of art F16

280 F16 is not enough for a country like Turkiye, especially considering the expanded theatre, conflicts and retirement of F4s.. I don't think it will be possible to have operational Hurjets or TFXs will be ready for another 10 year, even after 10 years it will be small numbers so, even if F16 deal finalized, Eurofighters should be considered as well.

For this order, I am sure it includes crazy amount of spare engines, so that pushes the price up (not just for F16)

 

[dBSPL]

Procuring Chinese fighter aircraft (SSN isn‘t realistic IMO, even the Chinese doesn‘t export them) would mean changing the whole NATO oriented ecosystem (communications, missiles, maintenance, training etc.). Is that feasible? The US wouldn‘t believe such a drastic step.

Türkiye would have to seriously declare end of NATO membership to gain leverage. This would have serious geopolitical implications as well and further isolate Turkey. The Chinese will try to use Türkiye for their own purposes: They are even worse than Americans projecting economic and military power by exploiting weaknesses of other states. Just my 2 cents.

Of course I think similar things about these issues and I have even written dozens of articles on the impossibilities of this in other forums, but what I am talking about is different. I am not talking about the technical side. It is sad that my point is not understood.

 

[Baryshx]

Of course I think similar things about these issues and I have even written dozens of articles on the impossibilities of this in other forums, but what I am talking about is different. I am not talking about the technical side. It is sad that my point is not understood.

We can even cooperate with Russia on these issues, but it is difficult with China. The best option seems to be Eurofighter.

Edit = Of course, since Eurofighter is a consortium, there are some difficulties there too.

 

[dBSPL]

We can even cooperate with Russia on these issues, but it is difficult with China. The best option seems to be Eurofighter.

The best option would be to bring the MMU up to 2028 as 4.5+.

There is also something we are missing, even if the Turkish aviation industry has not experienced a significant contraction in its share of business to the US aviation industry, the main item in exports for the last 2 years has been indigenous / indigenized platform sales. Starting from the next 10-year projection, sales of indigenously designed platforms are expected to continue to rise with increasing momentum. If this is still going to be a problem, yes, you are absolutely right, EF and then being involved in the Team Tempest ecosystem will be one of the options whose positive contribution is undeniable, and you know my thoughts on EF.

But on the other hand, there is a encirclement that goes beyond Greece and increasingly centers on Turkiye. The US is leading this design and it is necessary to weaken the motivation and enthusiasm of this country.

 

[Ecderha]

Biden administration is obviously trying to find a way to sell F16 in order not to lose Turkiye and so, Greek F35 and Turkish F16 sales are going to the congress at the same time. The costs mentioned are roughly calculated values. The actual price will be calculated in the negotiations to be held for contract to be signed later.

After approval and contract signing, 79 F16 modernization will probably be done at TAI facilities with kits from LM and can be completed in a short time. Negotiations continue for the production of 40 F16V by TAI. Some of offset lost in F35' project can be compensated a little bit thanks to this project.

In the meantime, our Air Force's dependence on US maintenance and munitions with this sale will continue for a while but I think this purchase is a need as an intermediate solution.

The fleet structure that will be formed in final situation is;

• 79 F16V(Upgrade) with AIM120D BVR and APG83 GaAs
• 40 F16V (new) with AIM120D and APG83 GaAs
• 30 + (max.160 F16s as per December SSIK decision to go ahead with national F16 modernization) F16T with Gökdoğan B1/2, Gökhan B1/2 BVR and Murad GaN and FEWS EW maybe!

Total ~275-280 state of art F16

I am sorry but it is like you want to lie yourself.
1. "Biden administration is obviously trying hard in order not to lose Turkiye"
- It is a FACT that usa did openly and brutally all or at lease as much that they CAN to make Turkiye to suffer.
Turkiye was pushed to a corner and Turkiye made right decision to go own Way. A hard path full of suffer in all fields ( military, political ,economy, social etc.)

2. "The fleet structure that will be formed in final situation is;"
-This is equal to a "Troy Horse" situation. How many times were showed and said to Turkiye that -> If Turkiye decide to use this toys against usa ally that they Will not allowed by agreement or usa Will not allow or usa will make SURE that this Toys to be hacked or disable features.
They will not allow Turkiye to not OBEY


Why some of you are keep forgetting history!?
Why you keep lying youself with Naive dreams that if you Pay for Toys you will have right to decide When and How you can use them?
How many years Turks countries have to Wait Turkiye the Head of other Turkic countries to "Wake up and united" -> (I am talking about society, economy, military, as Turkiye start to produce OWN and share with Turkic )?
Why ALWAYS world or Turks have to suffer when There are events which other country on start killing Turkic people and waiting Turkiye to step up and come to help. Turkiye just start to Talk and always keep ask usa Can we help do it?

From outside it is look like that Turks are weak and only talk -> "Hot air" -> Nothing happens -> and as history shows (at list last 50 years) . Turkic people have to die and suffer again and again because Turkiye decide to ask and ask and obey what usa say