India Navy SSK Submarines

[Windchime]

I have to say, P75i really is a complete mess. No wonder Indians are angry with how the project is handled.

In the meantime, the AIP equipped submarines have been superseded by the latest Soryu class Japanese submarines with higher endurance lithium-ion batteries with faster re-charge capabilities. The lithium-ion batteries have double the storage capacities of traditional lead acid batteries because of which the range of the submarine increases considerably. Given that the French have moved to nuclear propulsion and the German to lithium-ion technology ahead of AIP submarine technology, the Modi government most likely will end up with a single vendor option with South Korea being the only country building AIP submarines. Simply put, this means that by the time the Indian bureaucracy finalizes the vendor, the technology will be outdated and outclassed by the rapidly advancing Chinese PLA Navy.

Now this part is something I can't disagree more with. The author of this article clearly is not really knowledgeable about naval warfare or recent submarine warfare developments. Also, reading by his explanation about the German developments, he seems to be confused about the situation of P75i himself.

 

[rai456]

Advanced Scorpène class derivatives always seemed like the best option for India given that the production line is already operational. Never understood why India seemed to want such large ocean going SSKs for the P-75I program when they also have an SSN program.

India's future 6 x Project-75 Alpha SSNs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_75_Alpha will be superior to any SSK that it could procure for the P-75I program for ocean going operations.

Why waste money trying to build an SSK with SSN capabilities when you can just build a SSN? Australia made the same decision when it ditched the Attack-class SSK program for the AUKUS SSN program.

 

[Madokafc]

should go for more Scorpene and increasing the local content to offset some imports in parts from France

 

[Windchime]

India's DRDO and Naval Group to Upgrade Submarines with AIP - Naval News

DRDO & Naval Group sign agreement to integrate the Fuel Cell Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system onboard Indian Navy Scorpene type submarine INS Kalvari.

www.navalnews.com

So a separate P75I program indeed seems to be dead.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617528381284962304

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617538929552683008

 

[Nilgiri]

More on the AIP retrofit:

MAREEM AIP Plug-In Module For Indian Navy's INS Kalvari S-21 CM-2000 Scorpene SSK

As expected, the first MAREEM fuel cell-based Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system designed and developed by the DRDO’s Ambarnath-based N...

trishul-trident.blogspot.com

Explained: MAREEM AIP Plug-In Module For Indian Navy CM-2000 Scorpene SSKs

trishul-trident.blogspot.com

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Nilgiri]

In this edition of the defenders experts shared their views on the Project 75 (India)-class submarines advantages. Under this project, the Indian Navy intends to acquire six conventional, diesel-electric attack submarines, which will also feature advanced capabilities - including air-independent propulsion (AIP), ISR, special operations forces (SOF), anti-ship warfare (AShW), anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-surface warfare (ASuW), land-attack capabilities and other features. All six submarines are expected to be constructed in India, under the Make in India initiative.

Anchor- Maroof Raza

Guest :

1. CDR (Retd.) Anil Jai Singh, Vice President, Indian Maritime Foundation
2. Vice Admiral (Retd.) Anil Kumar Chawla, Defence Expert

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632738901868552197

 

[Nilgiri]

@Gessler et al.

Navy to approach govt for three AIP-equipped attack submarines

In the backdrop of the expansion of the Chinese Navy and its belligerence in the Indo-Pacific, India is looking to upgrade its submarine deterrence in synergy with its QUAD partners.

www.hindustantimes.com

In the backdrop of the expansion of the Chinese Navy and its belligerence in the Indo-Pacific, India is looking to upgrade its submarine deterrence in synergy with its QUAD partners.​

It is learnt that the contract to build three AIP submarines will be given to MDL based on specific requirements of the Indian Navy. MDL has already built six Kalveri class, based on the French Scorpene class, submarines for the Indian Navy with the sixth INS Vagsheer expected to be commissioned into the Navy before March 2024.

The AIP fitted into the three submarines will be developed by the Defence Research and Development Organization but tested and validated by the French Naval Group. The same AIP will then be retrofitted in the Kalveri class submarines when they come for mid-life overhaul at MDL.

In the backdrop of the AUKUS alliance involving US and UK nuclear-powered submarines patrolling the west coast of Australia and beyond as soon as 2027, India is looking to upgrade its submarine fleet with three nuclear-powered conventional weapon-armed submarines in collaboration with France on lines of the latest 4765-ton Barracuda class. As per the AUKUS deal, the US will sell three Virginia class submarines to Australia in the2030s with the option of buying two more, and parallelly design and develop AUKUS class submarines in collaboration with the British. The Virginia class submarine has displacement of over 10200 ton and is powered with a nuclear reactor using 97 per cent weapons-grade enriched uranium.

While the decision to go for nuclear attack submarines may take procedural time, India is expected to get one nuclear attack submarine from Russia on lease as part of the past contract to replace the previously leased INS Chakra in 2025. This deal was signed much before the Ukraine war with India adhering to the payment routine.

India needs to upgrade its sea-based deterrence in the context of the rapidly expanding Chinese Navy with the present strength of eight Jin-class nuclear ballistic missile submarines and 12 Shang and Han class nuclear attack submarines. With the PLA Navy operating two aircraft carriers with the third Fujian on the verge of being launched, it is only a matter of time when Chinese carrier strike forces will start patrolling the Indo-Pacific and resort to gunboat diplomacy in the region.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1659424204310167554

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1666800792848994304

 

[Windchime]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1666800792848994304

Nice, at least the program is moving forward. Of course it would have been way better if they went with Kalveri class (and possibly integrated DRDO AIP) instead of buying a new submarine all together, but at least they have something in hand now instead of endless delays.

Are there any news though about which model TKMS is offering? They were offering Type 216 before from what I remember, though more recently I've seen sources which mentions Dolphin/Dakar class design based model and others which mentions an Indian version of Type 218.

 

[Nilgiri]

Nice, at least the program is moving forward. Of course it would have been way better if they went with Kalveri class (and possibly integrated DRDO AIP) instead of buying a new submarine all together, but at least they have something in hand now instead of endless delays.

Are there any news though about which model TKMS is offering? They were offering Type 216 before from what I remember, though more recently I've seen sources which mentions Dolphin/Dakar class design based model and others which mentions an Indian version of Type 218.

It's an MOU signing. i.e intent and potentials if selected. No specific details given to public from what I can see.

i.e The firm selection has yet to be done.

DCN is very much in the running with scorpene esp given the AIP integration that India progressed with French earlier.

Indian Navy may repeat Kalveri class submarine order

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/indian-navy-may-repeat-kalveri-class-submarine-order-101673416531671.html Indian Navy is all set to bury fresh acquisition under Project 75 I and may go for repeat Project 75 order to MDL with DRDO proven and tested air independent propulsion system...

defencehub.live

 

[Lordimperator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671843642540195841

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1671803599834464256

 

[Nilgiri]

2700 Cr INR ~ 340 mln USD

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1674747358603628545

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1678336076988010496

 

[rai456]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...k-submarines-from-france-101688953456665.html

"The three additional Kalveri class submarines will be fitted with air independent propulsion (AIP), which has been designed by the DRDO but will be tested and validated by the French Naval Group. The AIP gives longer endurance to a normal diesel attack submarine and allows it to remain submerged for over a week without the need to surface to charge its batteries."

Ordering three more Scorpènes is a sensible decision. I don't understand why they have the P-75I competition instead of just continuing with the Scorpène design.

Is it some problem with the French design or management or the Kalveri class leak? Or do they just want a larger SSK boat with more endurance and VLS for land attack missiles?

For me it seems like India would be better served with just continuing with the Scorpène design for SSKs and spending the money saved on speeding up the SSN program. As Australia showed with the Attack-class program it makes no sense trying to develop a SSK with SSN-like capabilities when you can just build a SSN. Even the largest SSKs today can't match the range, endurance and payload capabilities of a true blue water SSN.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...k-submarines-from-france-101688953456665.html

"The three additional Kalveri class submarines will be fitted with air independent propulsion (AIP), which has been designed by the DRDO but will be tested and validated by the French Naval Group. The AIP gives longer endurance to a normal diesel attack submarine and allows it to remain submerged for over a week without the need to surface to charge its batteries."

Ordering three more Scorpènes is a sensible decision. I don't understand why they have the P-75I competition instead of just continuing with the Scorpène design.

Is it some problem with the French design or management or the Kalveri class leak? Or do they just want a larger SSK boat with more endurance and VLS for land attack missiles?

For me it seems like India would be better served with just continuing with the Scorpène design for SSKs and spending the money saved on speeding up the SSN program. As Australia showed with the Attack-class program it makes no sense trying to develop a SSK with SSN-like capabilities when you can just build a SSN. Even the largest SSKs today can't match the range, endurance and payload capabilities of a true blue SSN.

I agree overall. Overall the expedience of bird in the hand worth 2 in the bush is hopefully kept in mind by IN (given the SSK numbers dropping well behind the original plan 20+ years ago)....given I dont see cost benefit and the time involved being good w.r.t say S-80 w.r.t larger tonnage it brings to bear....and the way I see this all playing out in potential conflicts downstream (I value having more sub numbers and ASAP).

We will know later this year what becomes of P75 I or if it will just be scrapped and more scorpenes ordered given DRDO AIP and further customisation and familiarity with the system and how that all is worked out between France and India.

India let go Mirage 2000 production line shift as well and this was costly mistake IMO. Just like the premature HDW 209 shelving in the 90s (leading to scorpene now in first place) and all the ToT that was abandoned by that.