TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Rooxbar

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You wouldn't be allowed to learn anything useful from F35. Buying F35 was shooting ourselves on the foot.
We learned unimaginable amounts of know-how because of our participation in the program up until when we were kicked out, and we were slated to learn much more. This has been claimed by many "insiders", "engineers", "pilots" etc.
 

Ryder

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It is hilarious to me that I still see the same discussion and arguments about this plane after almost a decade not to mention the discussion particular to Türkiye-F35.

On one side you have those who love to act as if the F-35 is a trashcan and useless, which of course is not true, and on the other side you have those who act as if you can conquer another country with just 12 of them, which is also of course is not true.

Both sides don't recognize how ridiculous they are being. Especially those who make arguments plainly on their political stance.

First of all you can't focus on the plane and make your arguments based on that.

Context matters.

And the context for us is this. Our Air Force is aging, it is capability wise behind some of its neighbors. And this is the consequence of betting all you have on one horse long-term, i.e. the F-35 project. The first mistake here was not to diversify your options by agreeing to the deal offered to you over a decade ago to become a partner in the Eurofighter project.

The second mistake was going on a dumb , yes dumb you can argue about it as much as you like the signs are clear here, buying spree for the S-400 just to get kicked out of a project you have been a partner in since the start, a project you have pretty much planned the future of your Air Force around, a project which over its lifetime would have netted you Billions of dollars in revenue.

I'm not going to accept the words of the MoD btw you can post it here as often as you want, nor I will I take anyone serious no matter its political stance who says the clear cut lies of " We didn't want it cause it is broke", get out of here, is that why you send pilots to train in the US on your planes? Is that why you didn't just cancel your orders? Why pay the first payment for the first 24 planes?

Things like that just make you stoop low and lose your integrity. Easy as that.
You exchanged your then future plans for the Air Force for a tin can that can't even do its job in the Russian Army, where it its btw connect to a network and should do a job 10x times better it would for you. Yet Ukraine regulary bombs Crimea, regulary attacks the Russian Navy.

Saying things like " We will take it out of storage if we need it" is just hilarious. You will never know when you will need it, by the time you take it out it will be already be too late. They can make any excuses they want, the S-400 is rotting away in a storage warehouse somewhere secret cause the TSK does not want it and was not impressed by it. It was a purely political purchase driven by the Government thinking it could show the US the middle finger and they would not react, it was also a election move. Why are there no exercises being done with it? Is it because 1. the Army does not want it 2. You are scared of the consequences if you use it again and 3. You can't replace the missiles cause any other purchase from Russia will lead to more sanctions which you can't afford anymore.

Having the F-35 right now would not only have alleviated the symptomes our Air Force is suffering but would have added a lot of to the MMU project. I already mentioned the financial aspect. Or have you all forgotten that Türkiye was to be the MRO station for the F-35 fleet in Europe? Do you even understand the things you have lost? Do you understand the know-how our companies could have continued gaining?

The same people in the government talking down the F-35 would have praised it to the heavens if we were still in the project and how good of a job the government did joining the project and procuring the jet and how it will help our industry and bring in billions.


As much as we all hope for MMU to continue fast and without any problems the likelyhood is that it won't enter inventory and service until the 2030s. And even if our engineers did the impossible and made it serial production worthy in 4 years, you are still bound to the US due to the need for its engines.

So tell me what exactly did you gain by getting kicked out of the project? Cause all I hear is how getting kicked out saved us from a broken jet, which we all know especially those who make that argument is plainly a lie.

If it was so broken the Air Force and Government especially could have stopped ordering any new jets after the initial 24 F-35. :)


Neither is the F-35 a miracle jet. Greece buying 12-24 of them, still waiting for that contract according to our "experts" it was supposed to get signed 3 years ago, won't change anything in the long-term. Wars aren't just fought in the sky, according to that logic Russia should have won its war in a week.

I also don't buys this shit that Biden isn't on purpose sending the notification for the sale to Greece because Türkiye needs to first get its F-16 Block 70 sales. Biden loves Greece, there are other reasons for this, my theory being Greece not having the financial means to actually get the sale through. Under Trump both LM and the then Ambassador to Greece mentioned them first paying of their F-16V modernization before thinking about asking to buy the F-35. In the then Ambassador's words "Beggars can't be chosers".

How about we look at things with neutrals eyes and don't let us get distraced by your fanboying of politicians or political parties.

Not getting the F-35 won't be the end of the world, but getting it would have solved a lot of problems we are currently facing. And what makes this hurt the most is that we lost the F-35 in exchange for a tin can that even fails to do its proper job in the Army where it should especially excel.

And no I won't answer to people quoting government officials to me nor those who talk about conspiracy theories "The planes get switched off with one button". Okay.

Just like with the F-16, Türkiye would have become the country to use those jets the best. And now we need to hope that Germany gains clarity for 5 minutes and doesn't veto our purchase of the Eurofighter.

Cascading problems 5-6 years later for a tin can that we don't even use. Incredible.

Also pointing out mistakes and wrong doings doesn't make you "traitor" as much as some people love to act as if it does, no it actually helps make you stronger.

Hit the nail here. This actuallly one of the most non bias post on the forum.

Also showed the ridiculous sides of both anti f35 people and f35 fanboys.
 

Iskander

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Sry for the off topic, couldn't find the F-35 thread, here my friend tells about his problem with the tail hook design of the F-35
Tail hook? I am not very strong in such technical matters. In a previous post I wrote a little about failures of military suppliers. For example, I mentioned Iran and Libya. And went to bed. In the morning I re-read it and thought: Who am I writing this to?! Türkiye suffered perhaps the most from unfair cooperation with the Americans.
Regarding the hook, this is what I will say: Oh, what a delicious bait Uncle Sam the fisherman had on the hook!:) - F35!
But, no, thanks. Somehow we ourselves...
 
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dBSPL

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So, when are our F-35s coming? I am talking about aircrafts that were paid for years ago, ownership was transferred and then the transfer was blocked and usurped as a result US political will. If there are legitimate reasons for a 180-degree turn on Sweden issue, also this should be a legitimate question!
 

Strong AI

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What if Türkiye places the S-400 to the north coast, so it can only be used against russian attacks? Because never trust anyone.
Would this be enough to let them lift CAATSA?
 

Barry

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Look lads if it's not the s400, these modern imperialists will find one of a myriad excuses not to give you the jets you paid for. It'll be your position on the East Med. Your position on the Aegean. Your position on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Azerbaycan. Erdogan. Whoever comes next in political leadership. Being Turkish. Claiming Yoghurt is Turkish. Loving cats.
 

Bozan

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What if Türkiye places the S-400 to the north coast, so it can only be used against russian attacks? Because never trust anyone.
Would this be enough to let them lift CAATSA?

No, the condition is that they are removed completely
 

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Upgraded F-35 deliveries slipping to fall 2024, Lockheed says​



Lockheed Martin’s production of the latest upgraded F-35 Joint Strike Fighters is slipping further behind schedule, and deliveries likely will not resume until the third quarter of 2024, the company said Tuesday.

Lockheed CEO Jim Taiclet told investors in an earnings call that the business now expects to deliver between 75 and 110 F-35s this year — fewer than the roughly 150 annually the company typically aims to deliver.

The delivery disruption of the newest F-35s, intended to features upgrades known as Technology Refresh 3, means Lockheed’s sales of the jet took a $400 million hit last year.

Taiclet said the company is making progress on the jets enabled with the TR-3 upgrades, which would come with software and hardware improvements including better displays, computer memory and processing power. But the system maturation process “is taking somewhat more time than we originally anticipated,” he added.

“The second quarter customer acceptance of delivery software remains our target,” he said. “However, we now believe that the third quarter may be a more likely scenario for a TR-3 software acceptance.”

The TR-3 upgrades are needed to prepare the F-35 for a further wave of upgrades known as Block 4, which would allow the jet to carry more precision weapons, advanced sensing, jamming and cybersecurity capabilities, and more accurate target recognition. Rep. Rob Wittman, R-Va., worries TR-3 delays could in turn delay the rollout of Block 4 upgrades.

“We are taking the time and attention to get this [TR-3] technology insertion right the first time because it will be absolutely worth it,” Taiclet said. TR-3′s features “will provide our customers with the onboard digital infrastructure of data storage, data processing, and pilot-user interface to provide unmatched capabilities for many years to come.”

But TR-3, which was originally due in April 2023, has repeatedly slipped behind schedule due to software problems and challenges integrating it with the jet’s new hardware. In July 2023, Lockheed Martin began rolling the first jets intended for the TR-3 configuration off its production line in Fort Worth, Texas.

Because those jets could not undergo test flights the Defense Department requires before delivery, the military refused to accept them. New aircraft awaiting TR-3 are now stored at Fort Worth, and Lockheed said between 100 and 120 jets could remain there later this year.

The F-35 Joint Program Office said in a statement to Defense News that it and industry partners are focused on delivering capable fighters, but that delays in software maturity are still putting those deliveries at risk.

The JPO said it and Lockheed are working on a plan to allow the government to accept undelivered jets before the full TR-3 capabilities are validated.

“Any aircraft involved and delivered as part of the truncation plan will provide valuable capabilities to the warfighters while TR-3 completes final verification and validation,” the office said.

In November, the office confirmed a production F-35 had flown with an interim version of the TR-3 software installed. Flying jets with such early release versions of the software is “potentially” one way for deliveries to resume before TR-3 is done, the JPO said that month.

Lt. Gen. Michael Schmidt, who leads the F-35 program, told lawmakers in December that production of a few key components needed for TR-3 hardware also ramped up slower than expected, which is contributing to the delay.

When the Pentagon halted deliveries, it and Lockheed Martin still expected TR-3 to be ready between December and April 2024. But in September 2023, Lockheed and the JPO said TR-3 could take even longer. That revised schedule placed delivery at sometime between April 2024 — which would already be a full year late — and June 2024.

That schedule is now sliding further, it appears.

Taiclet said more than 90% of the TR-3 capabilities are now in flight test, and Lockheed is moving the software integration process forward to include more aircraft and mission subsystems.

Lockheed’s chief financial officer, Jay Malave, said the company is confident it can meet the new third quarter goal to begin delivering TR-3 jets. But if the schedule slips further, he explained, Lockheed would have to reconsider its production pace of F-35s and possibly slow it down.

The company is bleeding cash due to the F-35 delivery halt — and the wound does not appear likely to heal soon.

“As we make progress [on the] TR-3 program, as well as getting ourselves into production, it’s difficult to take risk and rely on risk retirements as we’re still facing this program, and the progress we’re making there,” Malave said. “And so we assume that profit adjustments slow down in 2024 on the F-35 program.”

Lockheed Martin delivered 98 F-35s in the previous TR-2 configuration in 2023, including 18 in the fourth quarter, Taiclet said. The company originally planned to deliver between 147 and 153 fighters last year.

The delivery halt meant Lockheed’s net F-35 sales for the year dropped $400 million, partially offsetting the growth in other areas. Lockheed’s classified Skunk Works unit saw its sales grow by $540 million in 2023, and rising production of F-16s meant its sales grew $230 million for the year, the company said.

Despite the F-35′s troubles, Lockheed’s aeronautics sector saw its sales grow 2% in 2023 to nearly $27.5 billion. The aeronautics sector’s 2023 profit ticked down about 1% to $2.8 billion.

 

Windchime

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And the context for us is this. Our Air Force is aging, it is capability wise behind some of its neighbors. And this is the consequence of betting all you have on one horse long-term, i.e. the F-35 project. The first mistake here was not to diversify your options by agreeing to the deal offered to you over a decade ago to become a partner in the Eurofighter project.
I think we should consider the rapid economic development of Turkiye during the last couple of years. I've had to point out similar things regarding Korean defense programs. What we currently perceive as Turkish financial capabilities could not have been what Turkiye could've been able to afford more than 10 years ago. Also, Eurofighter program was in its absolute worst place possible during that period. IMO, it's hindsight 20-20 to say that Turkiye should have opted to take part in two programs simultaneously since it would've been hard to justify. If anything, I'd say it should've got onboard the F-16V upgrade program sooner, when Taiwan first opted for its development alongside USAF.

No one would've imagined that A: Russia would invade Crimea, annex it, start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine and severe its ties with the US, and B: Turkiye would still choose S-400 for T-LORAMIDS despite this situation. It has been a very unfortunate, but in the same time, plain dumb decision, really.

The Hisar/Siper project has been going on for quite a while, surely the defense contractors have informed the government when the individual systems will be ready.
During T-LORAMIDS, it was already touted once that SSB will evaluate to develop and field indigenous long-range SAM instead of procuring foreign option, once the program stalled because Patriot and SAMP/T offers from Raytheon and EUROSAM couldn't satisfy Turkish requirements and the deal with Chinese fell through. Obviously, they soon got back to the foreign option since that wasn't viable in any foreseeable future (at that point, for the time being). Again, hindsight 20-20.

We haven't had a decent air defense system for 20-25 years, what difference would the last 4-5 years have made? Who would we have had to defend against in the short term if we had needed the S-400? The PKK and the YPG have neither ballistic missiles nor cruise missiles, the Greeks don't dare to attack Turkey, they don't have the courage, let alone the number of soldiers.
Neither Iran nor Russia would have dared to attack Turkey because of its NATO membership.
The US would not attack Turkey for some flimsy story either, the cost-benefit factor alone would be zero, especially as it would be uncontrollable as a country, even if our country had been bombed into the stone age.
Choosing to not invade/attack another country is not the matter of "courage" but wisdom, if I should say. That is unless they are directly under serious threat of invasion and needs to consider preemptive strike, though I don't think Turkiye would go as far with Greece in the foreseeable future.
 

Ryder

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I think we should consider the rapid economic development of Turkiye during the last couple of years. I've had to point out similar things regarding Korean defense programs. What we currently perceive as Turkish financial capabilities could not have been what Turkiye could've been able to afford more than 10 years ago. Also, Eurofighter program was in its absolute worst place possible during that period. IMO, it's hindsight 20-20 to say that Turkiye should have opted to take part in two programs simultaneously since it would've been hard to justify. If anything, I'd say it should've got onboard the F-16V upgrade program sooner, when Taiwan first opted for its development alongside USAF.

No one would've imagined that A: Russia would invade Crimea, annex it, start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine and severe its ties with the US, and B: Turkiye would still choose S-400 for T-LORAMIDS despite this situation. It has been a very unfortunate, but in the same time, plain dumb decision, really.


During T-LORAMIDS, it was already touted once that SSB will evaluate to develop and field indigenous long-range SAM instead of procuring foreign option, once the program stalled because Patriot and SAMP/T offers from Raytheon and EUROSAM couldn't satisfy Turkish requirements and the deal with Chinese fell through. Obviously, they soon got back to the foreign option since that wasn't viable in any foreseeable future (at that point, for the time being). Again, hindsight 20-20.


Choosing to not invade/attack another country is not the matter of "courage" but wisdom, if I should say. That is unless they are directly under serious threat of invasion and needs to consider preemptive strike, though I don't think Turkiye would go as far with Greece in the foreseeable future.

I dont think Greece will attack Turkiye.

Neither wil go to war but still historical grievances wont pass as Greeks constantly cry about Anatolia and Istanbul.

What the Greeks are complaining about how they failed to dislodge the Turks at their worst moment which was after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Ataturk was a smart man he knew the Greeks will constantly try to gobble as much Turkish land as they can as the Ottomans collapsed and instead used against them when the Greeks had no capabilities in ruling such a land.

Now the Greeks wont able to pull off such an invasion in the 1920s or even a attack.

Because 1920s and the 2020s and 2030s are different. Sick man of Europe stereotype has nothing more led to both the Usa, Eu and Russia underestimating the Turks.

They think the Turks will easily be rolled up just like the Ottoman Empire of the 1800s. Ottoman Empire even lost to Muhammed Ali Pasha its own Egypt Eyalet. Times were pretty embarassing and humiliating but now we live different times.
 

RMZN

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I dont think Greece will attack Turkiye.

Neither wil go to war but still historical grievances wont pass as Greeks constantly cry about Anatolia and Istanbul.

What the Greeks are complaining about how they failed to dislodge the Turks at their worst moment which was after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Ataturk was a smart man he knew the Greeks will constantly try to gobble as much Turkish land as they can as the Ottomans collapsed and instead used against them when the Greeks had no capabilities in ruling such a land.

Now the Greeks wont able to pull off such an invasion in the 1920s or even a attack.

Because 1920s and the 2020s and 2030s are different. Sick man of Europe stereotype has nothing more led to both the Usa, Eu and Russia underestimating the Turks.

They think the Turks will easily be rolled up just like the Ottoman Empire of the 1800s. Ottoman Empire even lost to Muhammed Ali Pasha its own Egypt Eyalet. Times were pretty embarassing and humiliating but now we live different times.
Their goal is to unilaterally extend their EEZ to 12nm, whilst trying to guarantee US and EU protection/intervention, once they instigate the conflict.
 

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Their goal is to unilaterally extend their EEZ to 12nm, whilst trying to guarantee US and EU protection/intervention, once they instigate the conflict.
12 NM is territorial waters, not EEZ. According to UNCLOS the delimitation of the EEZ is must be agreed and can not be extended unilaterally as Turkey is not part of the UNCLOS. However, not sure about the territorial waters. When Greece extending the territorial waters in Adriatic sea they made an agreement with Italy, so I would expect an agreement there as well for extension of the territorial water.
 
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RMZN

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12 NM is territorial waters, not EEZ. According to UNCLOS the delimitation of the EEZ is must be agreed and can not be extended unilaterally as Turkey is not part of the UNCLOS. However, not sure about the territorial waters. When Greece extending the territorial waters in Adriatic sea they make an agreement with Italy, so I would expect an agreement there as well for extension of the territorial water.
Their whole point is that according to them, it is their "right" to extend their EEZ up to 12nm, regardless of what Turkey says.
 

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US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland {CNN Turk}

- Frankly, if we can resolve this S-400 issue, which we want to do, the US will be pleased to welcome Turkey back into the F-35 family.

- But first we must solve this other issue, and while solving it we must also ensure that Turkey has a strong air defense
 

Zafer

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US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland {CNN Turk}

- Frankly, if we can resolve this S-400 issue, which we want to do, the US will be pleased to welcome Turkey back into the F-35 family.

- But first we must solve this other issue, and while solving it we must also ensure that Turkey has a strong air defense
That ship has sailed, we won't trust our national security to foreign weapons anymore.

If Americans want Turkish companies to do parts production for F35 we can discuss this at the next SSIK meeting.
 
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Strong AI

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US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland {CNN Turk}

- Frankly, if we can resolve this S-400 issue, which we want to do, the US will be pleased to welcome Turkey back into the F-35 family.

- But first we must solve this other issue, and while solving it we must also ensure that Turkey has a strong air defense

Let the S-400 place in the turkish military base in Somalia, different continent -> no problem 🤣
 

RMZN

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That ship has sailed, we won't trust our national security to foreign weapons anymore.

If Americans want Turkish companies to do parts production for F35 we can discuss this at the next SSIK meeting.
We have no use for the S400s either way. Give the S400s to Azerbaijan and get the planes we already paid for and are currently still sitting around.
 
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