TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Lool]

First of all, the prices reported to the congress are estimated. The actual price will be determined after negotiations when the real contract is signed if there won't be any objection in congress.

Secondly, sale of up to 40 F35As without munitions to Greece has been authorised and according to Greek news sources, the amount to be purchased will be 20 units initially. Greek F35s will have to use existing stocks of missiles for a certain period of time.

The Turk F16 Package includes 1350 latest generation air to air missiles, nearly 200 anti-radiation and nearly 2400 air to ground munition of various models. At the same time, 169 IVEWS EW kits were ordered for 119 upgrade + new purchases. Likewise, there are 149 AN-APG83 AESA radars ordered for 119 total aircraft. These figures indicate a huge renewal and combat readiness.

It should not be forgotten that F35s will enter Greek inventory only in the 2030s. By this year, developments in domestic projects will be much more clearly observable and entry into the inventory will have begun.

That even raises more questions you know.....

1350 Air to Air missiles? Why on earth would Turkey order such a number when Gokdogan and Bozdogan are being developed? Wouldnt it be better to give this money to rocketsan?
2400 Air to Ground munitions? Again, why on earth would Turkey spend so mich money when the national Turkish equivalent is just as effective and around 40% cheaper.... not to mention that it will aid the national employment and turkish companies
Why is Turkey buying AESA radars when the national counterpart is already being tested
And above all of this, what about the Ozgur F16 modernisation program? Didnt they promote it as an even better yet cheaper national alternative than the Viper? Yet they opted for the Viper


Something is way off the mark in this deal as many of its items just dont make sense. It is either
1- Erdogan was forcibly made to sign the deal even though he knows it is bad probably by threatening to hinder KAAN or other crucial platforms from being developed
2- Erdogan got scammed way too hard and probably cost Turkey around 50 billion dollars; both in direct and indirect damages, just in this deal alone
3- Erdogan became so senile that he doesnt even know what his govt is doing behind his back and the US is using that to suck Turkey dry

ANY of these options is horrendous by itself. I honestly camt think of any other reason for why such a deal was made in the first place

 

[Cabatli_TR]

1. How do you know they will not fast track Greece
2. Will we start getting Viper kits delivered before 2030s?

We will see timeline when there are no objections at the congress and the contract is signed with LM but I know that F35 production lines are already full and thry are trying to solve central computer bugs and engine problems for existing fleet so the earliest date for F35 orders is 2030's. There is the possibility of using TAI facilities for F16 upgrade kits. That's why I think one that will progress the fastest will be the 79 upgrade kit.

 

[Rodeo]

TÜRKIYE – F-16 AIRCRAFT ACQUISITION AND MODERNIZATION​

The Republic of Türkiye has requested to buy 40 new F-16 aircraft and to modernize 79 existing F-16 aircraft to V-Configuration.

The request includes:

• thirty-two (32) F-16 C Block 70 aircraft; eight (8) F-16 D Block 70 aircraft;
• forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares);
• one hundred forty-nine (149) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares));
• one hundred forty-nine (149) AN/APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares));
• one hundred sixty-nine (169) Modular Mission Computers (MMC) 7000AHC (or available mission computer) (40 installed, 10 spares, 119 for modernization program (79 installed, 40 spares));
• one hundred fifty nine (159) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS) Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGI) with Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) or M-Code capability and Precise Positioning Service (PPS) (40 installed, 8 spares, 111 for modernization program (79 installed, 32 spares));
• one hundred sixty-eight (168) Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems (40 installed, 10 spares, 118 for modernization program (79 installed, 39 spares));
• eight hundred fifty-eight (858) LAU-129 guided missile launchers;
• forty-four (44) M61 Vulcan cannons (40 installed, 4 spares);
• sixteen (16) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP);
• one hundred fifty-one (151) Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Joint Tactical Radio Systems (MIDS-JTRS) (40 installed and 4 ground terminals, 8 spares, and 99 for modernization program (79 installed and 4 ground terminals, 16 spares));
• nine hundred fifty-two (952) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-8 or equivalent missiles;
• ninety six (96) AMRAAM guidance sections;
• eight hundred sixty-four (864) GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bombs Increment 1 (SDB-1);
• two (2) GBU-39(T-1)/B SDB-1 guided test vehicles;
• two (2) GBU-39(T-1)/B SDB-1 practice bombs;
• ninety-six (96) AGM-88B High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM);
• ninety-six (96) AGM-88E Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missiles (AARGM);
• ten (10) AARGM Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM);
• eleven (11) AARGM control sections;
• twelve (12) AARGM guidance sections;
• four hundred one (401) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder missiles;
• twelve (12) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs);
• forty (40) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder tactical guidance units;
• twelve (12) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder CATM guidance units;
• twelve (12) MK82 Inert Filled general purpose bombs;
• eight hundred fifty (850) Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) KMU-556 tail kits for GBU-31;
• two hundred (200) JDAM KMU-557 tail kits for GBU-31v3;
• three hundred eighty-four (384) JDAM KMU-559 tail kits for GBU-32;
• three (3) JDAM KMU-572 tail kits for GBU-38 or Laser JDAM GBU-54;
• one thousand fifty (1,050) FMU-152 fuzes. Also included are AMRAAM CATMs;
• AIM-9X Sidewinder training missiles and Active Optical Target Detectors (AOTD);
• HARM control sections, rocket motors, and warhead spares;
• FMU-139 Joint Programmable Fuzes;
• DSU-38 Laser Guidance Sets for GBU-54;
• missile containers;
• AN/ARC-238 radios;
• AN/APX-127 or equivalent Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Combined Interrogator Transponders (CIT) with mode 5;
• Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) II or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tracker (HObIT) helmet mounted displays;
• Infrared Search and Track (IRST) pods;
• AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS);
• KY-58 and KIV-78 cryptographic devices;
• Simple Key Loaders (SKLs);
• additional secure communications, precision navigation, and cryptographic equipment;
• Flight Mission Planning Systems (FMPS);
• Remote Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER) 6i/6Sis;
• Tactical Network ROVER kits, and STINGER Multi Bi-Directional (MBI) antennas;
• SNIPER pod pylons;
• impulse cartridges, chaff, flares, and ammunition; bomb components and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE);
• Rackmount Improved Avionics Intermediate Shop (RIAIS);
• Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD);
• Triple Missile Launcher Adapters (TMLA);
• aircraft, avionics, and weapons integration, test support, and equipment; major modernization upgrade kits for F-16 Block 40 and Block 50+ aircraft and Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) modifications;
• aircraft and engine repair and refurbishment after maintenance;
• engine and aircraft spare and repair parts, consumables, and accessories and repair and return support;
• aircraft, engine, ground, and pilot support equipment;
• Classified/Unclassified Computer Program Identification Number (CPIN) systems;
• electronic warfare database support;
• pylons, launcher adaptors, weapon interfaces, bomb and ejection racks, conformal fuel tanks, and travel pods;
• precision measurement equipment laboratory and calibration support;
• Classified/Unclassified software and software support;
• Classified/Unclassified publications, manuals, and technical documentation;
• maps and mapping data;
• facilities and construction support;
• simulators and training devices;
• personnel training and training equipment;
• U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, studies and surveys;
• and other related elements of logistical and program support.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[Cabatli_TR]

That even raises more questions you know.....

1350 Air to Air missiles? Why on earth would Turkey order such a number when Gokdogan and Bozdogan are being developed? Wouldnt it be better to give this money to rocketsan?
2400 Air to Ground munitions? Again, why on earth would Turkey spend so mich money when the national Turkish equivalent is just as effective and around 40% cheaper.... not to mention that it will aid the national employment and turkish companies
Why is Turkey buying AESA radars when the national counterpart is already being tested
And above all of this, what about the Ozgur F16 modernisation program? Didnt they promote it as an even better yet cheaper national alternative than the Viper? Yet they opted for the Viper


Something is way off the mark in this deal as many of its items just dont make sense. It is either
1- Erdogan was forcibly made to sign the deal even though he knows it is bad probably by threatening to hinder KAAN or other crucial platforms from being developed
2- Erdogan got scammed way too hard and probably cost Turkey around 50 billion dollars; both in direct and indirect damages, just in this deal alone
3- Erdogan became so senile that he doesnt even know what his govt is doing behind his back and the US is using that to suck Turkey dry

ANY of these options is horrendous by itself. I honestly camt think of any other reason for why such a deal was made in the first place

The answer is simple. Turkey will have an F16 fleet with two different DNAs and you can't use domestic missiles in full capacity with other's computers and radars

1. 119 F16 Block70
MMC7000AHC
APG83 AESA
IVEWS EW
Sniper Pod
IRST
AIM120C7/8
AIM9XB2
AGM 88 Harm

2. ~155 F16 Özgür2
Domestic computers
Murad GAN AESA
FEWS EW
Aselpod+
Gokdogan BVR
Gokhan BVR
Bozdogan WVR
Akbaba

F16 project covers not only supply of kits and aircrafts but also needed tools for maintenance and repair activitirs gor existing fleet which Turkiye immediately require.

F35 related matters are about pure politic and not have a simple and single asnwer because of complex geopolitic matters and challenging regional stability issues with US sponsored states.

 

[Khagan1923]

1. How do you know they will not fast track Greece
2. Will we start getting Viper kits delivered before 2030s?

1. Fast Track in whose place? Canada who ordered its F-35 2 years ago and will get its first plane in 2028-2029? Germany who ordered it last year and will get its first plane in 2029-2030? The only country who would ever get fast tracked planes is Israel.

Or in place of all the other countries who are still waiting for follow up deliveries and only have received one or two planes? None of those countries will give up their place in the production line for Greece, Israel yes, Greece? No.

And I know someone as they always do is gonna start the discord on Greece getting out 8 F-35 sitting in a hanger. Won’t happen those are by law TAF property. So either Greece would have to pay Turkey the money for them or the US would have to. So no they aren’t getting our F-35.

Greece‘s timeline will look most likely like this.

2030-2031 delivery of first Aircraft
2031-2036 delivery of the following aircrafts

As @Cabatli_TR mentioned this is just a notification. At the end the number of Aircrafts will most likely go down to 20-24 maybe even 12-16.

also LM right now can’t deliver its produced F-35 to its customers due to the contractually promised Block 4 upgrades not happening due to engine restrictions.

Which could see LM slow down production until the upgrades are applied. I don’t see it happening but there is the possibility of the related engine upgrades are not solved.

 

[Sanchez]

Turkiye has already stated that it would not accept any conditions regarding Greece or any other regional matter and there is no such text in the declaration submitted to the Congress. It is also mentioned this in the last part of the text you shared. Apart from that, it is always possible that US, which didn't give paid F35s to Turkiye, will make such a move for F16s if you're making a deal with a state like US. So it is not a new situation.

what Turkey said doesn't really matter when it'll be the same congress that will be overlooking the sale and transfer. Correct me if I'm wrong, they passed an amendment to the budget last year forcing the State Dept to do exactly what Rodeo posted. This is not over until all aircraft are delivered to HvKK. This sale will be a huge weapon turned on our head until it's finished.

-
Going on the package,

C8 is a good missile, but why not D3? Still no two way datalink...
And JDAMs and SDB-Is. No JSOWs, no JASSMs, no MALDs, no decoys. But AGM-88Bs? Why not 88F? Reminds me of Egyptian F-16s with AIM-7s...

 

[Cabatli_TR]

what Turkey said doesn't really matter when it'll be the same congress that will be overlooking the sale and transfer. Correct me if I'm wrong, they passed an amendment to the budget last year forcing the State Dept to do exactly what Rodeo posted. This is not over until all aircraft are delivered to HvKK. This sale will be a huge weapon turned on our head until it's finished.

What I am trying to say is It is not just "Conditions for Turkiye on sale/usage of F16" that Greek diaspora wants to add the propolsal for sale. Turkiye strongly rejected it.

Apart from this, there is no need for them to make an amendment to block the deal. The US can find any reason and block this sale any timr and they have already done this with the F35. There was no F16 sales but when we entered in Syria, they again imposed an embargo on us through various means. We are talking about a country that doesn't deliver aircrafts we were partners with and paid for. The issue here is that congress approval of F16s is not delivered under any conditions contrary to what Greeks wanted. This was the issue on which Turkiye was underlined but Greek diaspora struggled to activate until last seconds. If Congress tries to find an excuse to stay in control for this sale, that's another matter. This is a possibility that is valid not only for F16 but also for every contract made with US.

 

[dBSPL]

Buying that much AA missiles and bombs when you can produce your own … We couldn’t have asked the US to integrate our own munitions into these new Vipers ?

I think the most right thing in this contract is the number of missiles. In fact, especially the anti-radiation missiles should have been more...

 

[Kartal1]

We had to use this chance and purchase some more CH-47s.

 

[Khagan1923]

We had to use this chance and purchase some more CH-47s.

+
More CH47 and a couple C-130 would have been nice. Maybe even trying to get a couple S70B or MH-60R for the Navy.

Seeing the amount of missiles and extra equipment softens the blow a bit. Especially good to see that they went for the C8 and AGM-88E and IRST pods.

This feels like the last time you go to a family event with your soon to be ex.

Looks like the Air Force asked for everything in large numbers to fill up the warehouses as well as enough maintanence equipment to last for the next decade or two.

 

[dBSPL]

Btw, I expect an announcement on EF acquisition very soon.

By 2030, my expectation for the general outlook of combatant fleets:

119 F-16-V
156 F-16-Özgür programs (inc blok-50s)
40 EF-T3
First active fleet of Kaan B-1 (14/20)

 

[CAN_TR]

Why ordering over 800 GBU-39 and 1400 JDAM when our own industry produces similar weapons for a fraction of the US pricetag? Just add the integration of Turkish weapons to the F-16 deal, spare some money and support our own industry.

And 12 Mk-82 bombs what the f*ck?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

According to CnnGr, if contract can be signed within 6 months in 2024, Greece may receive its first F35 in 2028/29 and first F35 will be operational 16/18 months after receiving first one.

I think even these dates are very optimistic. It is not easy to make delivery before 2030.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

According to CnnGr, if contract can be signed within 6 months in 2024, Greece may receive its first F35 in 2028/29 and first F35 will be operational 16/18 months after receiving first one.

I think even these dates are very optimistic. It is not easy to make delivery before 2030.

Chezh Republic ordered the F-35 back in September/October period, and they are expecting to get the first delivered by 2031 and deliveries to be completed by 2035.

 

[dBSPL]

Chezh Republic ordered the F-35 back in September/October period, and they are expecting to get the first delivered by 2031 and deliveries to be completed by 2035.

As Cabatli üstad says, there is a sense that the US has decided to maintain a balance. If we can declare full operational capability in the KAAN program by 2033-35 range. They could have given the green light to Greece's request earlier and been among the lots that would have enabled delivery before 2030. If that was coupled with a decision not to approve any sale to TR, the US could have directly intervened in the balance.

Nothing has changed in the current and near future. But, at this point, the future of our air force will largely depend on the success of the KAAN program.


I also have to give another footnote. The Iranian air force has started procuring new platforms after a very long time. Deliveries of Iranian Su-35s start this year.

 

[Khagan1923]

Btw, I expect an announcement on EF acquisition very soon.

By 2030, my expectation for the general outlook of combatant fleets:

119 F-16-V
156 F-16-Özgür programs (inc blok-50s)
40 EF-T3
First active fleet of Kaan B-1 (14/20)

I think if EF happens it will be the T4 variant which will go into production in the nearish future.

 

[Afif]

what Turkey said doesn't really matter when it'll be the same congress that will be overlooking the sale and transfer. Correct me if I'm wrong, they passed an amendment to the budget last year forcing the State Dept to do exactly what Rodeo posted. This is not over until all aircraft are delivered to HvKK. This sale will be a huge weapon turned on our head until it's finished.

-
Going on the package,

C8 is a good missile, but why not D3? .

D-3 is only for domestic use afaik. C-3 is its export variant.

 

[wolveray1]

Tbh why still buy it.
Seems to me 40 F35 usd8 billion greek will simply wipe out the usd23 billion F16.
Might as well put all these money on local investment like kizellima,Kaan,Anka 3 and engine .
Its not like Turkey will go to war with Nato within these few years.

 

[dBSPL]

I think if EF happens it will be the T4 variant which will go into production in the nearish future.

Of course... Since the T4 is more Germanish, I wanted to make a safe guess. Also, which fleet it will go to will also be an important detail.

 

[Turan]

Tbh why still buy it.
Seems to me 40 F35 usd8 billion greek will simply wipe out the usd23 billion F16.
Might as well put all these money on local investment like kizellima,Kaan,Anka 3 and engine .
Its not like Turkey will go to war with Nato within these few years.

i am fully agree with you