TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[what]

I have a question:

Let's say the procurement budget of TurAF for the next 20 years is $X Billion dollars. Out of this:

$ 20 billion goes to F-16V
$ 7-10 billion for Eurofighters
$ 7-10 billion for F-35s

How much will be left to complete the development of TFX and its engine after you have taken out some 40 billion dollars from your procurement budget and spent it on not one but 3 different combat aircraft?

Even if you could somehow do all of this, how many TFX are you gonna be able to actually procure with whatever is left?

At this point, I'm starting to believe that buying anything other than F-16 kits creates an unacceptable financial risk for the TFX.

Maybe that is the intent here.

Both the F35 project and 100+ orders and TF-X aka KAAN were planned simultaneously initially.
Maybe the deliveries of KAAN would have been stretched over more years, maybe KAAN itself would have been a cheaper plane but there was and is enough budget for both. Otherwise we would have never made the plans accordingly.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

That's right, we would just have to add at least 30-40 Kizilelma to our inventory by 2028. Together with the F16 Özgur version, we would then already have a bulwark in the airspace in advance.

Akinci/Aksungur and TB3/TB2S could simply monitor the airspace permanently with their patrols and exert physiological pressure.
The Greeks have nothing comparable at the moment that can patrol continuously for at least 24-48 hours, with an AESA radar and multiple BVRAAM they would be a serious threat. While the drones would be really easy targets due to lack of maneuverability + speed and stealth, multiple squadrons of 6-8 drones each in the air would make up for it.
I'd love to see the F-16 or F-35 with at least 7-8 BVRAAMs pointed at them.
The funny thing would be that we would force them to launch their expensive aircraft, you could play cat and mouse with them every day, and they would have to take on expensive maintenance and extra wear and tear unlike us.
They know we won't pull the trigger, but forcing them to go on patrol with their planes is a big win in itself and they know we're doing it on purpose to piss them off.
Apart from that, the AESA radar built into the drones could be calibrated to the F-35 and Eurofighter by gradually decoding the radar signature.

 

[godel44]

So, let me ask something to the experts here about Kizilelma's performance against 4th gen aircraft. Not that it's an alternative to modernization of the F-16s or Kaan of course but many seem to be quite pessimistic about the A-A capabilities of KE whereas it seems like a very well-thought solution to me. So maybe I am missing something.

KE is supposed to have an RCS that is a lot smaller than F-16V and Rafale. Its radar will be a GaN based AESA radar which may be a scaled-down version of the one in F-16 Ozgur but still quite capable. So it seems like, primarily due to having a stealth design, it will be able to spot a F-16V or Rafale before it gets spotted and it will have Gokdogan missiles that will have long enough range to take advantage of the gap. F-16V and Rafale also have capable EW self-defense systems but if they don't see the KE, they can't make use of them.

So what is the issue here exactly? Would the radar on KE be too weak to spot the enemy (in which case the obvious solution is to use a bigger engine and radar) or would the enemy aircraft have passive EW self-defense? Or do people believe Kizilelma cannot be built with these specs in the near future?

In the absence of any issues I assume KE would be a good solution to any 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft we might face. Not to mention that a pack of KEs going against smaller numbers of enemy planes make it even more nightmarish for the enemy.

 

[Relic]

Maaaaybe 40 new Viper order could be turned into F35's and only modernization kits will be acquired. That could be an option.(a risky one)

Why not make the following deal with USA?... Send all S-400 systems and interceptor missiles procured from Russia to Ukraine, along with a healthy quantity of 155mm artillery shells... In exchange for F-16's becoming F-35's and the lost value of S-400s in Patriots with PAC 3?

Everyone gets what they want / need

 

[B_A]

So, let me ask something to the experts here about Kizilelma's performance against 4th gen aircraft. Not that it's an alternative to modernization of the F-16s or Kaan of course but many seem to be quite pessimistic about the A-A capabilities of KE whereas it seems like a very well-thought solution to me. So maybe I am missing something.

KE is supposed to have an RCS that is a lot smaller than F-16V and Rafale. Its radar will be a GaN based AESA radar which may be a scaled-down version of the one in F-16 Ozgur but still quite capable. So it seems like, primarily due to having a stealth design, it will be able to spot a F-16V or Rafale before it gets spotted and it will have Gokdogan missiles that will have long enough range to take advantage of the gap. F-16V and Rafale also have capable EW self-defense systems but if they don't see the KE, they can't make use of them.

So what is the issue here exactly? Would the radar on KE be too weak to spot the enemy (in which case the obvious solution is to use a bigger engine and radar) or would the enemy aircraft have passive EW self-defense? Or do people believe Kizilelma cannot be built with these specs in the near future?

In the absence of any issues I assume KE would be a good solution to any 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft we might face. Not to mention that a pack of KEs going against smaller numbers of enemy planes make it even more nightmarish for the enemy.

Didnt because Current KE engine is too weak and too slow?

Current KE can only flight 0.6 -0.9Mach

 

[B_A]

Why not make the following deal with USA?... Send all S-400 systems and interceptor missiles procured from Russia to Ukraine, along with a healthy quantity of 155mm artillery shells... In exchange for F-16's becoming F-35's and the lost value of S-400s in Patriots with PAC 3?

Everyone gets what they want / need

Russian is too important to Turkish Economy now

 

[uçuyorum]

I said this before but I speculate that TF6000 could have very high electricity generation capacity for its class, following the trend with newer engines, which could allow it to power full sized MURAD. For instance F110 generates 60 kVA, a single F404 is 40, F414 is 70, F135 is 160. EJ200 should be 40 each, these are the numbers I was able to find on google. In fact they are planning to increase F35 total generation to 400. I believe it would be possible for TF6000 to match F110. The generators use a fraction of engines total power ofcourse, but it would have design considerations about fuel consumption and heat etc. If you were to convert all of the thrust into electricity it would theoretically be around 2 MW. So I think 60 kW is doable.

With this, KE wouldn't be anywhere near a 5th or 6th gen obviously, but combined with low RCS it could keep up with Rafale. It would still have limited physical performance and mtow limitations, but usually A2A missions don't have the plane carrying maximum payload so that could be less of an issue.

 

[uçuyorum]

Given this assumption two TF6000s would provide as much electricity as KAAN and F22?, could make a mini unmanned 5th gen fighter, but would probably not be cheap. And then imagine what that number is going to be for TF35000, I expect two of them should at the very least exceed the (160+80) of F35, so like 100+ each.

 

[Osman]

Why not make the following deal with USA?... Send all S-400 systems and interceptor missiles procured from Russia to Ukraine, along with a healthy quantity of 155mm artillery shells... In exchange for F-16's becoming F-35's and the lost value of S-400s in Patriots with PAC 3?

Everyone gets what they want / need

Why not make the following deal with USA?... Send all S-400 systems and interceptor missiles procured from Russia to Ukraine, along with a healthy quantity of 155mm artillery shells... In exchange for F-16's becoming F-35's and the lost value of S-400s in Patriots with PAC 3?

Everyone gets what they want / need

Bro, s 400 is more than a SAM. It is politics. Turkey and West do not trust each other. Indeed a huge problem disguised under s 400 caatsa etc

 

[Fatman17]

Keep Flying!

 

[boredaf]

Maaaaybe 40 new Viper order could be turned into F35's and only modernization kits will be acquired. That could be an option.(a risky one)

Even if we could actually get F35s, and I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, we shouldn't give up on F-16s. Mainly because we are a country that needs a workhorse in its fleet. Smaller countries that depend on other members of NATO to put in the flight hours for dirty work might transition away from 4th gen (well, 4.5 with upgrades in sensors, network capability and EW suites etc) completely, but, countries that are going to be doing that work are not only keeping their 4th gen fleets but they are upgrading and even expanding them.

Just off the top of my head, US and Israel are buying F-15s and recently started to upgrade their F-16s, France is buying Rafales, Spain ordered new Eurofighters while UK and Germany are upgrading theirs and might order T4s, China is still producing J-10s and rolled out a new upgrade.

Due to the shitshow of a region we are in and the terrorist threat we always face, we are going to need workhorses as well. 5th gen planes are expensive to fly and maintain, and I doubt Kaan is going to be any different. While we might eventually get light attack configuration of Hürjet, the words "light attack" makes a big difference there. Hürjet will have, according to Tusaş, 1500 kgs of payload which is just about the same as an Akıncı or Aksungur, (confused that with Hürkuş C) 2300kgs, less than half of an F-16. Buying those new F-16s would give us something that we can use for cheaper than a 5th gen with the capability to carry really heavy ordinance. In fact, I wouldn't mind at all if we also go for 40 Eurofighter T4s.

And if we go for F-35s in anyway, slim chance I know, I hope we try to get naval versions first and foremost.

 

[Fatman17]

It seems Turkey was stuck in a cul-de-sac and couldn't wriggle out but in the end it opens the door on the F-35 program perhaps and the NOC for engines for the T-129 deal between Turkey and Pakistan .

US Ready to 'Welcome Back' Turkey into the F-35 Fighter Jet Family - Defence Security Asia

The United States is prepared to "welcome back" Turkey into the fifth-generation fighter jet program, F-35, despite ongoing disagreements between the two countries regarding Turkey's purchase of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system.

defencesecurityasia.com

The doors are opening

 

[hawk21]

Both the F35 project and 100+ orders and TF-X aka KAAN were planned simultaneously initially.
Maybe the deliveries of KAAN would have been stretched over more years, maybe KAAN itself would have been a cheaper plane but there was and is enough budget for both. Otherwise we would have never made the plans accordingly.

True. But the plan was for F-35s to replace F-4s and for TF-X to replace F-16s. Leaving a fleet of only F-35 + TFX.

Now you are planning to go for F-16Vs, Eurofighters, F-35s, TFX. Also the Ozgur, Hurjet, Kizilelma and Anka-3.

This is definitely going to cause a massive financial crisis in the TF-X and TF35K programs.

 

[Saithan]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

 

[B_A]

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

Even Taiwanese had 400+ fighter jets.We have to have 2times of them.

 

[Huelague]

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

Because of our expansion in Africa, Caucasia, Balkan and ME, we need to double current fighter jet fleet.

 

[YeşilVatan]

We have a very wide array of threats pointed towards us:

Greek preemptive strike
Threat: F-35s, Rafales, Vipers, coyotes
Counter: Advanced layered anti-air defense, second strike capability, air superiority jets, mass precision MRBMs

Iranian missile bombardment
Threat: Mass MRBM and long range kamikaze drone strikes
Counter: Something like Iron dome for major population centers, point defense for bases, MRBMs and long range kamikaze drones for second strike, submarines for trade interdiction in the Gulf of Basra.

Assadist Attack
Threat: Chemical WMDs, SCUDs, ATGMs, militia
Counter: Something like iron dome, TB-2s, APS equipped armored units.

YPG Zerg Rush
Threat: Low tier AA, Hamas-ian tactics (like 7 oct), tunnels
Counter: Bunker-buster munitions, armored units, local proxy forces, TB-2s, mass detention centers, lots of yellow bags

American Showdown
Threat: Whatever those unhinged SOBs will bring
Counter: Making it costly to attack and nuclear ICBMs/second strike. Nothing less qualifies.

As you see, we have much to prepare for. It's not like Japan where their only problem is China, or even Britain where they can just make do with the navy. I can't think of any other country that has such varied selection of threats.

And that's not even counting our future airbases in the Horn of Africa, the Gulf, Africa or Central Asia.

 

[Saithan]

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

Aren't you assuming that there are countries willing to sell to us in case we need them ?

I was thinking that if we keep the current types we have and get new ones as well. We'd have a more mixed and expensive maintenance issue, but it would be better for us.

F-16
KAAN
Hurjet
F4 (or it's replacement EF)

There aren't really that many options for us, considering the hostility and enemy like approach to us.

As you can tell from the few above the only suppliers are US and EU.

So we need to have a waste numbers, here I am thinking of fully equipping TuAF and also working towards reaching same numbers on domestic jets. That means Kaan and Hurjet however possible it can be.

So if we need a complete airforce of 800-1000 jet, then that's what it is.

Not to forget we need to pump money and production orders into our own industry like mad, to keep them alive and shining.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

Because Hürjets are not capable of replacing or fighting F-16's, I would be in favor of producing 60 of them, with the option of 20 more.
Otherwise it should only serve as an export aircraft for countries in Asia & Africa.
For Turkey, 40 units are sufficient as a trainer variant for training, and 40 units for counter-terrorism and patrols together with Hürkus & various MALE drones against terrorism & piracy + Monitoring the turkish Aerospace.

Light GEN 4+ fighters like Hürjet as a new development is simply a dead end, 20-30 years ago it would have made sense, and we would now have Hürjet Block 50/60 or Hürjet II which could have the performance profile of an F-16. But they don't stand a chance against powerful GEN 4+ fighters like the F-16 Block 50/70, Eurofighter or Rafaele.
Hürjet is a near earth light fighter, even if someone argues by BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare it could make up for a lot, I say it doesn't matter in real combat, it would always be the underdog aircraft.
The BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare, can also fulfill a conventional fighter jet drone without endangering the life of the pilot.
Our rival countries get or have the best of GEN 4+ and GEN 5 like F-35 on the market, so Hürjet is simply no longer of any use.

I maintain that KAAN and F-16, Kizilelma & Anka 3 are or will be the workhorses of the Turkish armed forces in war operations.
For everything else, the Hürjet/Hürkus and drones like Akinci, Aksungur and TB3 are sufficient.