TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[hawk21]

Both the F35 project and 100+ orders and TF-X aka KAAN were planned simultaneously initially.
Maybe the deliveries of KAAN would have been stretched over more years, maybe KAAN itself would have been a cheaper plane but there was and is enough budget for both. Otherwise we would have never made the plans accordingly.

True. But the plan was for F-35s to replace F-4s and for TF-X to replace F-16s. Leaving a fleet of only F-35 + TFX.

Now you are planning to go for F-16Vs, Eurofighters, F-35s, TFX. Also the Ozgur, Hurjet, Kizilelma and Anka-3.

This is definitely going to cause a massive financial crisis in the TF-X and TF35K programs.

 

[Saithan]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

 

[B_A]

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

Even Taiwanese had 400+ fighter jets.We have to have 2times of them.

 

[Huelague]

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

Because of our expansion in Africa, Caucasia, Balkan and ME, we need to double current fighter jet fleet.

 

[YeşilVatan]

We have a very wide array of threats pointed towards us:

Greek preemptive strike
Threat: F-35s, Rafales, Vipers, coyotes
Counter: Advanced layered anti-air defense, second strike capability, air superiority jets, mass precision MRBMs

Iranian missile bombardment
Threat: Mass MRBM and long range kamikaze drone strikes
Counter: Something like Iron dome for major population centers, point defense for bases, MRBMs and long range kamikaze drones for second strike, submarines for trade interdiction in the Gulf of Basra.

Assadist Attack
Threat: Chemical WMDs, SCUDs, ATGMs, militia
Counter: Something like iron dome, TB-2s, APS equipped armored units.

YPG Zerg Rush
Threat: Low tier AA, Hamas-ian tactics (like 7 oct), tunnels
Counter: Bunker-buster munitions, armored units, local proxy forces, TB-2s, mass detention centers, lots of yellow bags

American Showdown
Threat: Whatever those unhinged SOBs will bring
Counter: Making it costly to attack and nuclear ICBMs/second strike. Nothing less qualifies.

As you see, we have much to prepare for. It's not like Japan where their only problem is China, or even Britain where they can just make do with the navy. I can't think of any other country that has such varied selection of threats.

And that's not even counting our future airbases in the Horn of Africa, the Gulf, Africa or Central Asia.

 

[Saithan]

800-1000 fighter jets are way to much. The sweetspot would be around 350-500 fighter jets.

Aren't you assuming that there are countries willing to sell to us in case we need them ?

I was thinking that if we keep the current types we have and get new ones as well. We'd have a more mixed and expensive maintenance issue, but it would be better for us.

F-16
KAAN
Hurjet
F4 (or it's replacement EF)

There aren't really that many options for us, considering the hostility and enemy like approach to us.

As you can tell from the few above the only suppliers are US and EU.

So we need to have a waste numbers, here I am thinking of fully equipping TuAF and also working towards reaching same numbers on domestic jets. That means Kaan and Hurjet however possible it can be.

So if we need a complete airforce of 800-1000 jet, then that's what it is.

Not to forget we need to pump money and production orders into our own industry like mad, to keep them alive and shining.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

Because Hürjets are not capable of replacing or fighting F-16's, I would be in favor of producing 60 of them, with the option of 20 more.
Otherwise it should only serve as an export aircraft for countries in Asia & Africa.
For Turkey, 40 units are sufficient as a trainer variant for training, and 40 units for counter-terrorism and patrols together with Hürkus & various MALE drones against terrorism & piracy + Monitoring the turkish Aerospace.

Light GEN 4+ fighters like Hürjet as a new development is simply a dead end, 20-30 years ago it would have made sense, and we would now have Hürjet Block 50/60 or Hürjet II which could have the performance profile of an F-16. But they don't stand a chance against powerful GEN 4+ fighters like the F-16 Block 50/70, Eurofighter or Rafaele.
Hürjet is a near earth light fighter, even if someone argues by BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare it could make up for a lot, I say it doesn't matter in real combat, it would always be the underdog aircraft.
The BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare, can also fulfill a conventional fighter jet drone without endangering the life of the pilot.
Our rival countries get or have the best of GEN 4+ and GEN 5 like F-35 on the market, so Hürjet is simply no longer of any use.

I maintain that KAAN and F-16, Kizilelma & Anka 3 are or will be the workhorses of the Turkish armed forces in war operations.
For everything else, the Hürjet/Hürkus and drones like Akinci, Aksungur and TB3 are sufficient.

 

[Saithan]

I disagree, it all boils down to what armament Hürjet can have and the max load it can carry.

It annoys me greatly that there aren't any news about Hürjets payload and wiki and it's source reference is the closest we get.

Light Combat AircraftVersion for close air support and armed air policing roles. The combat variant will carry locally produced air-to-air missiles and air-to-ground bombs.[11][12]

if it can carry 2x Air-to-Ground bombs and have short range A2A missiles at the same time it's good enough to take over some of the work from F-16.

 

[Strong AI]

short range A2A missiles

IMHO you do overestimate the dogfight capability of a fighter jet with a single F404 engine. A F-16 has like 11.000 lb more thrust (i think).

it's good enough to take over some of the work from F-16

Yes, it will be good enough to bomb targets, which are only protected by SHORAD's.
But i think Hürjet is suboptimal for BVR, despite AESA.
Türkiye should heavily invest in ANKA-3, because the twin engine version with MURAD and maybe later with BURFIS along with GÖKHAN will be a different kind of a beast for BVR engagements.
I really wish to see the faces of Türkiye's adversaries, when ANKA-3 test fires the first time a BVR missile from its IWB.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Even Taiwanese had 400+ fighter jets.We have to have 2times of them.

400?

Because of our expansion in Africa, Caucasia, Balkan and ME, we need to double current fighter jet fleet.

Do not forget that Turkey is working on network-centric warfare, and fighter jets are not the only asset. We are talking about drones of various types ranging from TB-3, ANKA-1/3-4, and Kizilelma that work jointly with the future kAAN. Turkey is operating almost 250 F-16s, and many of them will perhaps be way too old to operate by 2030-2035 ( not sure about the timeframe) which means that the KAAN will be the backbone of the Air force. Even 500, 5-generation fighter jets is a massive number that neither China or Russia has accomplished so far.

 

[Windchime]

Because Hürjets are not capable of replacing or fighting F-16's, I would be in favor of producing 60 of them, with the option of 20 more.
Otherwise it should only serve as an export aircraft for countries in Asia & Africa.
For Turkey, 40 units are sufficient as a trainer variant for training, and 40 units for counter-terrorism and patrols together with Hürkus & various MALE drones against terrorism & piracy + Monitoring the turkish Aerospace.

Light GEN 4+ fighters like Hürjet as a new development is simply a dead end, 20-30 years ago it would have made sense, and we would now have Hürjet Block 50/60 or Hürjet II which could have the performance profile of an F-16. But they don't stand a chance against powerful GEN 4+ fighters like the F-16 Block 50/70, Eurofighter or Rafaele.
Hürjet is a near earth light fighter, even if someone argues by BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare it could make up for a lot, I say it doesn't matter in real combat, it would always be the underdog aircraft.
The BVR capabilities and AESA radar and electronic warfare, can also fulfill a conventional fighter jet drone without endangering the life of the pilot.
Our rival countries get or have the best of GEN 4+ and GEN 5 like F-35 on the market, so Hürjet is simply no longer of any use.

I maintain that KAAN and F-16, Kizilelma & Anka 3 are or will be the workhorses of the Turkish armed forces in war operations.
For everything else, the Hürjet/Hürkus and drones like Akinci, Aksungur and TB3 are sufficient.

Why? Firstly, considering the fleet size of THK and its planned expansion, it would need a much larger advanced trainer and LIFT fleet. They could opt to just continue using the planned twin-seater variant of Kaan as a conversion trainer/fighter trainer, but that's a very expensive and inefficient option.

Also, there's always the market niche for a fighter in Hurjet-sized segment, and here, absolute cost as well as cost-performance factor is the king. Until now, FA-50 and M-346FA have been the two of the few viable options, alongside Chinese JF-17 and L-15, but Chinese products cater to a slightly different userbase, although that doesn't mean they don't overlap. Hurjet could be an attractive option if it could A: keep the cost as low as the competition (not hard, tbh), B: offer as much option in procurement diversity and operational flexibility C: offer as attractive of a "package" compared to Korea, Italy and China (the biggest problem for Turkiye).

"A" would be easy, as long as they can keep commonalities reasonably high. For instance, current T-50, TA-50 and FA-50 are all common airframes. So as long as THK place a big enough order for the trainer and keeps the line busy, it would have cost competitiveness.

"C" is hard due to outright size of Turkish economy. For instance If there's a big enough procurement, it would be harder for the Turkish gov. to bill the offset deals or soft loans compared to the other countries. This is imo one of the biggest problems.

Another problem is that the market turning into a red ocean real quick. In the 2000s, FA-50 and Hawk 200 held a duopoly in this segment. Now even the US is planning to join the frey with "F-7" based on T-7A.

 

[what]

True. But the plan was for F-35s to replace F-4s and for TF-X to replace F-16s. Leaving a fleet of only F-35 + TFX.

Now you are planning to go for F-16Vs, Eurofighters, F-35s, TFX. Also the Ozgur, Hurjet, Kizilelma and Anka-3.

This is definitely going to cause a massive financial crisis in the TF-X and TF35K programs.

We're probably talking about a low number of Eurofighters and the F16 order. F35 is off the table as far as anyone can tell. I think we would have easily spent at least 15-25 bln € on the F35s alone. So plenty of budget to relocate to other projects.

Özgür and Hürjet are older projects too. So were definitely budgeted in. Not sure about the drone programs.

I think the budget is not the issue, the issue is that no one is selling us their toys at the moment.

 

[Iskander]

IMHO you do overestimate the dogfight capability of a fighter jet with a single F404 engine. A F-16 has like 11.000 lb more thrust (i think).



Yes, it will be good enough to bomb targets, which are only protected by SHORAD's.
But i think Hürjet is suboptimal for BVR, despite AESA.
Türkiye should heavily invest in ANKA-3, because the twin engine version with MURAD and maybe later with BURFIS along with GÖKHAN will be a different kind of a beast for BVR engagements.
I really wish to see the faces of Türkiye's adversaries, when ANKA-3 test fires the first time a BVR missile from its IWB.

As you probably remember, Anka3 appeared completely unexpectedly. In my opinion, it would be great to have a new Anka with a carrying capacity of several tons, with parameters several times higher than the current one. I imagine Temel Kotil with his eternal smile, like a wizard pulling a new Anka out of a hat. For some reason he is not visible. He must be working some magic again

 

[what]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders.

Failing to ensure that is not an option.

That said, as I said previously I still don't understand why we're not ordering 100 Hurjet, and I consider the failure to do so as treason.

We have yet to see a render of the militarized Hürjet. Would love to see 80-100 of these.

Imagine:
80 Hürjet
100+ KAAN
same number of Anka 3s
50-60 Kizilelma
+ existing F16 fleet

 

[Quasar]

Until the arrival of KAAN, ÖZGÜR modernized F 16s will be the most advanced fighter we will have with our national weapons and systems.

the deal with US is quantitative for me - since we seem to be unable to use our national weapons on Vipers yet big amounts of missiles in the deal is understandable.

The balance between already signed ÖZGÜR project and the deal with US is vital...we will wait and see

 

[Fuzuli NL]

True. But the plan was for F-35s to replace F-4s and for TF-X to replace F-16s. Leaving a fleet of only F-35 + TFX.

Now you are planning to go for F-16Vs, Eurofighters, F-35s, TFX. Also the Ozgur, Hurjet, Kizilelma and Anka-3.

This is definitely going to cause a massive financial crisis in the TF-X and TF35K programs.

Time/Delivery

 

[Scott Summers]

US opens F-35 window to Ankara​

Washington proposes Turkey’s conditional return to fighter jet co-production program​

Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.

US opens F-35 window to Ankara | eKathimerini.com

Washington has reopened the window for Ankara’s return to the F-35 co-production program, on the well-known condition that it removes its Russian S-400 missile defense system from Turkey.

www.ekathimerini.com

Maybe good news. Greece is in panic.

 

[boredaf]

While talking about a light attack variant of Hürjet, we should also keep in mind that not only we don't have a domestic engine for it, we don't even have a domestic engine project in that class. TF10000 wouldn't be enough, unless 2 of them were to be used but that would mean designing Hürjet from scratch, and TF35000 would be too much.

 

[Windchime]

TuAF needs to have at least 800-1000 combat jets (UAVs etc. not included), imo. Doesn't matter if their life expectancy can be extended or not. We should always ensure to have production lines filled with our orders

You are probably aware that 800 combat jets are not something Turkiye, or any European country, could actually sustain long term.