TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[boredaf]

Full unnamed quote:
"Our Eurofighter demand continues"

In response to a question on whether Turkey's demand for the Eurofighter continues, ministry sources said, "Our demand continues. The positive approach of Germany, one of the consortium countries, is expected. Discussions and studies are ongoing."

"F-16 tedariki ve modernizasyonu konusu herhangi bir şarta bağlı değil"

ABD’den talep edilen F-16'la ilgili onay süreci 26 Ocak'ta başladı. Milli Savunma Bakanlığı kaynakları, Yunanistan kaynaklı haber sitelerindeki iddiaları yalanladı, "F-16 tedariki ve modernizasyonu konusu herhangi bir şarta bağlı değildir" açıklamasını yaptı.

www.trthaber.com

I like this because it means we are expanding our F-16 fleet and replacing F4s with EF Typhoons, while continuing development of TF-X and TF350000. On top of that, we'll also have Anka-3 and KE, with possibly (hopefully) domestic engine in 3 or 4 years.

 

[Sai]

We must have 100s of AKINCI and KIZILELMA unmanned systems for daily air patrols, interceptions, anti terror operations, heck even actual wars.

You all saw how quickly Ukraine and even Russia lost great chunks of their manned fighter squadrons and precious hard to replace pilots.
A few hundred planes will disappear in the first few weeks of a conventional modern war.

So it is crucial to have fast paced underground production capability to rebuild unmanned systems to replace what's lost.
Manned systems just can't be replaced fast enough due to pilot shortages.

Drones emerged prominently on the battlefield only recently, gaining significant attention during the Nagorno-Karabakh and Russia-Ukraine conflicts. This spotlight has spurred intensified efforts in enhancing both drone capabilities and counter-drone technologies for future warfare scenarios. Moving forward, the efficacy of drones is likely to diminish unless they incorporate stealth features. World is observing and is now aware of how dangerous drones are. Everyone incorporating Anti-Drone capabilities.

 

[DBdev]

Drones emerged prominently on the battlefield only recently, gaining significant attention during the Nagorno-Karabakh and Russia-Ukraine conflicts. This spotlight has spurred intensified efforts in enhancing both drone capabilities and counter-drone technologies for future warfare scenarios. Moving forward, the efficacy of drones is likely to diminish unless they incorporate stealth features. World is observing and is now aware of how dangerous drones are. Everyone incorporating Anti-Drone capabilities.

Kizilelma has a RCS of 0.3m2 according to experts. That along with sheer numbers, 100+km IRST + laser DIRCM, it could be enough to take down 5th gen F35 fighters.

Remember in Red Flag they don't actually FIRE missiles. Therefore we mustn't assume first shoot equals to first kill. A destructive high powered laser like the one LM testing on their F-16s could take down incoming missiles and give time to get close enough to target F35s.

 

[RMZN]

Am I speaking Chinese or something? Didn't you see the giant chart?

Neither s400 nor Patriot can stop 100% of threats.

Some will ALWAYS get through. If s400 stops 1 warhead and saves 1 million lives it will be worth 1000 F-35s that we can't reverse engineer due to complexity of both hardware and software.

You can crack a program with a few thousand lines of code easily as 1,2,3. But when it is tens of millions of lines of code like it is in F-35 it becomes near impossible!
Heck even America wasted years trying to debug their own open source codes due to it's sheer complexity.

What we could get from F35 was mainly stealth panels which wouldn't also help us if we do not have know how to reproduce them. Hopefully we can produce equal or even better RAM for KAAN by now.

F35 like all stealth planes, is vulnerable to IRST, both airborne and ground based passive/semi-active AESA sensor fusion capable systems located around our borders will give us 100+ km protection range. 100+km is the current day limit of modern airborne IRST but that number can easily be improved.

Neither Russia nor the US will ever Nuke Turkey. Russia doesnt even dare to use low yield tactical nukes in Ukraine and the US is currently sitting neck deep in the mess they themselves created having to deal with both an antagonistic rival growing across the pacific and their supposed "greatest ally in the world", stoking a regional war in the ME.

We dont have to reverse engineer the F35, instead I want domestic AD systems tested against the most capable stealth fighter currently in operation by the US and soon to be in the inventory of almost all our western neighbours. Furthermore what use is a Russian S400 to us, if the one threatening to nuke us are those very same Russians? Whilst the US may shoot down our drones, it was the Russians which conducted airstrikes on our soldiers and its the Russians that closed down access to Syrian Airspace to block Turkish anti-terror operations. All the while Israel is doing whatever they want in Syrian airspace with their F35s.

At the end of the day the F35 is a bigger deterrence than the S400, especially now since the whole world witnessed the failure of Russian AD Systems in Ukraine.

 

[dBSPL]

It could be useful to find out for sure if Eurofighter can be supplied. If so

- LM does not have a potential captive customer (so cannot charge highest price)
- political risk of future supply cuts is altered (possibly lower than with US)
- Eurofighter delivery may be much faster than F-16 delivery

Hi Bro, sorry if you have already posted about this, but let me ask a question: Exactly what is the total order book size of the final assembly line at Warton UK in 2025-2030, assuming unblocking for KSA and including orders from consortium countries? Also, is there any up-to-date data on current production capacity? How many jets can be rollout from the line per year?

 

[Sai]

Kizilelma has a RCS of 0.3m2 according to experts. That along with sheer numbers, 100+km IRST + laser DIRCM, it could be enough to take down 5th gen F35 fighters.

Remember in Red Flag they don't actually FIRE missiles. Therefore we mustn't assume first shoot equals to first kill. A destructive high powered laser like the one LM testing on their F-16s could take down incoming missiles and give time to get close enough to target F35s.

Kizilelma has a RCS of 0.3m2 according to experts. That along with sheer numbers, 100+km IRST + laser DIRCM, it could be enough to take down 5th gen F35 fighters.

Remember in Red Flag they don't actually FIRE missiles. Therefore we mustn't assume first shoot equals to first kill. A destructive high powered laser like the one LM testing on their F-16s could take down incoming missiles and give time to get close enough to target F35s.

F 35 has a RCS of 0.005 m^2. It will spot you before you spot it. And it doesn't need to come close to you to hit you. IRST's limit is just 100 km, and Kizilelma is subsonic, so there is not enough speed to close the gap with a jet that can super cruise.

 

[dBSPL]

These theoretical RCS discussions may be valid over the ocean and long distances. I would like to remind you that Turkish and Greek air forces have been dogfighting over 6 miles for more than 40 years. There is not only CAP or patrol flights have radars; As soon as the planes enter international airspace (even in their own airspace), they enter a system that has a common combat tactical network, from radars in mountains, valleys, coastal surveillance positions to airborne early warning systems, which all are operate on the air tactical picture, scanning the airspace from dozens of different angles.

The F-35's ability to strike undetected over the Aegean is engagement without leaving Greek airspace. In this type of encounter, the country with greater geographical depth is still in the dominant position. The only thing Greece can do against Turkiye is to launch a surprise attack and hold out for the first 24/48 hours until the US intervenes. In this case, the issue moves from comparing two aircraft in a laboratory environment to the entire combat command and control network again. The problem is that if the Greeks launch such an attack, their planes may not find a base to land. Maybe that's why they give a lot of special privileged bases to the US in GR lands.

 

[kakaliam2]

Can someone explain why Turkey opted not to develop a domestic replacement for the F-16? The recent deal with the USA seems disadvantageous and basically ripped off. I understand Turkey's commitment to replacing imported weapons and platforms with domestic ones, and they're making great progress. But why the rush for KAAN? Are they planning to replace the entire Turkish Air Force with KAAN and the Loyal Wingman Kizilelma, with the F-16 as supplementary? Operating a fleet of fifth-gen platforms exclusively could prove costly. Are there any future plans regarding this?

 

[dBSPL]

Turkish Technic has started passenger-cargo aircraft conversions with Elbe Flugzeugwerke GmbH (EFW), one of the leading companies in the industry, as part of the passenger-cargo conversion (P2F) of Airbus A330 aircraft.

Turkish Technic, the first MRO (maintenance, repair and modification) company in the world to cooperate directly with EFW as part of the A330P2F Program, recently carried out the cutting of the upper frame shell (UFS) of the first conversion aircraft and successfully installed the new UFS. This is an important milestone for the installation of the main deck cargo door. This cargo conversion, the first in a series of A330 P2F conversion projects, is scheduled for completion in mid-2024.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1752966513223508014

I'm sure we're all thinking the same thing right now. lol

 

[Spitfire9]

Hi Bro, sorry if you have already posted about this, but let me ask a question: Exactly what is the total order book size of the final assembly line at Warton UK in 2025-2030, assuming unblocking for KSA and including orders from consortium countries? Also, is there any up-to-date data on current production capacity? How many jets can be rollout from the line per year?

Qatar ordered 24 Eurofighter. First delivery was August 2022. The UK assembly line at Warton had delivered 12 by August 2023. As far as I know the Qatari aircraft are the only aircraft left to be assembled at Warton.

RAF orders were completed in 2019. Italian air force orders were completed in 2020. Germany (38) and Spain (20) have ordered 58 Eurofighter in the last 2 years. In October 2023 Italy had delivered 13 of 28 aircraft ordered by Kuwait. As far as I know the Kuwaiti aircraft are the only aircraft left to be assembled in Italy.

If a KSA order were received (probably 48-72), the aircraft would be assembled at Warton. I guess that 20+ a year were assembled at Warton when it was at its busiest making deliveries to the RAF and KSA air force.

How soon could first aircraft be delivered for a new order from Warton? My guess is less than 3 years. As an existing user KSA could make them operational quickly. Turkiye would take longer, of course.

The main attraction of Eurofighter to Turkiye I think lies in it not being American.

 

[Afif]

These theoretical RCS discussions may be valid over the ocean and long distances. I would like to remind you that Turkish and Greek air forces have been dogfighting over 6 miles for more than 40 years. There is not only CAP or patrol flights have radars; As soon as the planes enter international airspace (even in their own airspace), they enter a system that has a common combat tactical network, from radars in mountains, valleys, coastal surveillance positions to airborne early warning systems, which all are operate on the air tactical picture, scanning the airspace from dozens of different angles.

The F-35's ability to strike undetected over the Aegean is engagement without leaving Greek airspace. In this type of encounter, the country with greater geographical depth is still in the dominant position. The only thing Greece can do against Turkiye is to launch a surprise attack and hold out for the first 24/48 hours until the US intervenes. In this case, the issue moves from comparing two aircraft in a laboratory environment to the entire combat command and control network again. The problem is that if the Greeks launch such an attack, their planes may not find a base to land. Maybe that's why they give a lot of special privileged bases to the US in GR lands.

I agree with Türkiye having the advantage with greater geographical depth. But in most of these discussions, we almost presupposes only Türkiye is truly capable of networking centric warfare. Greek military, not so much. However, they are also in NATO and benefits immensely from multinational integration of sensors, shooters and decision makers during joint exercises. which requires highly network centric C4 approach to begin with.

And they do have 6x patriot batteries, judging from their performance in Ukraine against various types of BM & CM, they are likely to withstand the initial waves of missile strikes. Hence, those F-35s may have few bases to return to. Besides, they are increasingly experimenting the concept of keeping F-35's operational from airstrip and highways. Thus, I think these scenarios may require more complex solutions than a large wave of missile & loitering ammunition strikes. (I.e. SEAD/DEAD for example)

 

[DBdev]

F 35 has a RCS of 0.005 m^2. It will spot you before you spot it. And it doesn't need to come close to you to hit you. IRST's limit is just 100 km, and Kizilelma is subsonic, so there is not enough speed to close the gap with a jet that can super cruise.

These are AESA radar detection distances of 2 opposing fighters based on the frontal RCS
Here it looks like we have to wait until we get as close as 18km. But IRST is 100+ km and it
can cue our AESA radar to focus beams on that spot. Entire force of AESA radar focused
on 1 tiny spot like laser could give a radar lock. Or even without a radar lock, missile with IR
seeker could be fired close to that area WITHOUT a lock until it finds said target. Periodic
coordinate updates are also possible. Red Flag and 1 billion chats about oh the great F35
never mentions that if you can see it by zooming in with your optics, you also can hit it.

 

[uçuyorum]

Don't forget traditional IRST is one thing but DAS and sensor fusion of F35 is an unknown quantity.

 

[DBdev]

Don't forget traditional IRST is one thing but DAS and sensor fusion of F35 is an unknown quantity.

DAS system has a much shorter range than IRST, typically less than 10 km.

Making IRST on Kizilelma work with it's AESA radar is sensor fusion too.

It could help US defeat F-35 just like I showed you above.
Sensor fusion, DAS, laser pod, other DIRCM, low RCS are not some magical things that only
holly F-35 and Americans can have and benefit from.

In this scenario above better IRST could win, not smaller RCS.
RCS doesn't even matter that much because our AESA radar doesn't even have to be active for us to see the F-35.

All we must have is more modern IRST with longer range IR zoom, better IR resolution.
Very doable thanks to IR abilities of Aselsan. Perhaps our IRST system end up being 5x bigger as a result.
Who cares we weren't going to win against F35 by being compact and lower RCS anyway.

Sadly our current IR systems aren't better than anyone's. But they sure can be.

 

[Afif]

These are AESA radar detection distances of 2 opposing fighters based on the frontal RCS
Here it looks like we have to wait until we get as close as 18km. But IRST is 100+ km and it
can cue our AESA radar to focus beams on that spot. Entire force of AESA radar focused
on 1 tiny spot like laser could give a radar lock. Or even without a radar lock, missile with IR
seeker could be fired close to that area WITHOUT a lock until it finds said target. Periodic
coordinate updates are also possible. Red Flag and 1 billion chats about oh the great F35
never mentions that if you can see it by zooming in with your optics, you also can hit it.

In operational environment, an IRST won't see an F-35 beyond 50km in head to head engagement. F-35 is also optimized for LO in IR spectrum.

Also, it doesn't matter if AESA radar focus a very narrow Beam cued by other sensor. It doesn't practically increase the detection range by much.

And you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

DAS system has a much shorter range than IRST, typically less than 10 km

What?

"The F-35's DAS was flown in military operational exercises in 2011, has demonstrated the ability to detect and track ballistic missiles to ranges exceeding 800 miles (1,300 km), and has also demonstrated the ability to detect and track multiple small suborbital rockets simultaneously in flight."

AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And that was the older DAS, not even the current one.

 

[DBdev]

"In operational environment, an IRST won't see an F-35 beyond 50km in head to head engagement. "

Says who. Go watch a Nikon handheld camera zooming to individual valleys on the moon. Better IRST is possible as technology advances. OBVIOUSLY.

And you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

Sure you can. It is not hard at all. You have so many ways to guide your missile to your target without a lock. Radar lock is the most primitive way of doing the job.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-missile-lock-on-to-its-target

"ballistic missiles "

Those you can see with your own eyes from hundreds of kilometers. They are giant balls of fire not IR stealth, no afterburner Kizilelma

DAS is short range like your eyes but wider spectrum of light. Long range requires large mechanical optics, lenses like a telescope thus the need for a separate IRST on F35.

 

[Bozan]

Full unnamed quote:
"Our Eurofighter demand continues"

In response to a question on whether Turkey's demand for the Eurofighter continues, ministry sources said, "Our demand continues. The positive approach of Germany, one of the consortium countries, is expected. Discussions and studies are ongoing."

"F-16 tedariki ve modernizasyonu konusu herhangi bir şarta bağlı değil"

ABD’den talep edilen F-16'la ilgili onay süreci 26 Ocak'ta başladı. Milli Savunma Bakanlığı kaynakları, Yunanistan kaynaklı haber sitelerindeki iddiaları yalanladı, "F-16 tedariki ve modernizasyonu konusu herhangi bir şarta bağlı değildir" açıklamasını yaptı.

www.trthaber.com

Do the Eurofighters fulfil different roles to F-16?

Otherwise this means that government thinks F-16 is unlikely

 

[uçuyorum]

Do the Eurofighters fulfil different roles to F-16?

Otherwise this means that government thinks F-16 is unlikely

Eurofighter has superior characteristics to F16 in certain ways rather than different roles, but being a twin engine, high thrust to weight ratio fighter should make it particularly good for A2A. Plus Tranche 4 is supposed to have real modern radar and avionics.

 

[Afif]

Sure you can. It is not hard at all. You have so many ways to guide your missile to your target without a lock. Radar lock is the most primitive way of doing the job.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-missile-lock-on-to-its-target

That answer is incrediblely misleading in its conclusion.

"But, how does the missile know how close to the target it is?”

It does not need to know that. The missile only needs to know in which direction to go, and then it keeps going, and going, and going, until it either hits the target or runs out of momentum and can go no further."

Again, false. As I said, you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

Weapon-quality track with accurate kinematics of the target is essential for effective interception.

 

[DBdev]

That answer is incrediblely misleading in its conclusion.

"But, how does the missile know how close to the target it is?”

It does not need to know that. The missile only needs to know in which direction to go, and then it keeps going, and going, and going, until it either hits the target or runs out of momentum and can go no further."

Again, false. As I said, you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

Weapon-quality track with accurate kinematics of the target is essential for effective interception.

I haven't read the entire answer. But DUH it will EVENTUALLY see the F35 with its own damn IR seeker when it gets close. Mid course RF route corrections from the source also exist you know. Why am I even telling you that? Isn't that obvious?