TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[somegoodusername]

I have a question. Does a long-range, large-diameter cruise missile like the Gezgin need a turbofan engine instead of a turbojet engine? Tomahawk uses a turbofan engine, I assume Gezgin is planned to be in the same category as the Tomahawk. Do we have a small diameter turbofan engine project for that?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I have a question. Does a long-range, large-diameter cruise missile like the Gezgin need a turbofan engine instead of a turbojet engine? Tomahawk uses a turbofan engine, I assume Gezgin is planned to be in the same category as the Tomahawk. Do we have a small diameter turbofan engine project for that?

This was discussed here few times.
Up to about 1200 to even 1400km range it doesn’t make economical sense to use a turbofan engine.
Tomahawk missiles have 2400km range. Fuel is precious commodity in such a long range. It has to take the missile longer per litre burnt. So a more expensive but frugal turbofan engine is a necessity.
Gezgin will have a range of 800-1200km range.

 

[AzeriTank]

But how often could you use ARAT then?
Because normally an engine of a cruise missile is built to last only few hours, because of obvious reasons.
Or would that be the reason, that the drone will be recoverable, as you mentioned?

Kale officially said that they developed tech that their engines could be used for a long time, or unlimited by changing some stuff time to time like "turbofan engine".

 

[Quasar]

This was discussed here few times.
Up to about 1200 to even 1400km range it doesn’t make economical sense to use a turbofan engine.
Tomahawk missiles have 2400km range. Fuel is precious commodity in such a long range. It has to take the missile longer per litre burnt. So a more expensive but frugal turbofan engine is a necessity.
Gezgin will have a range of 800-1200km range.

seems that there is an intention for longer-range cruise missiles and Kale has a turbofan engine project as well which was at conceptual studies stage

 

[dBSPL]

Kale officially said that they developed tech that their engines could be used for a long time, or unlimited by changing some stuff time to time like "turbofan engine".

Being able to produce a jet engine with a very long shelf life like the ARAT at home is a deterrent in itself. It will enable the armed forces to stockpile GEZGIN in really high quantities against all kinds of risk situations. God forbid, but in the event of an all-out war, or if the military capacity of the enemy is to be limited by a very large-scale preemptive strike, GEZGIN will have to play an important role. In my humble opinion, when this engine enters mass production, its production capacity should be higher than we have ever tried before. Therefore, diversification into many side projects/platforms to create this opportunity will be very beneficial for the rapid return on these investments by KALE. While world politics is as turbulent as it can be and geopolitical balances present very serious risks: at least until we see KAAN in the inventory in hundreds of numbers, I wish that the inventory of munitions or drone-ish systems that allow long-range engagement from land and surface/undersurface will be unusually large.

 

[zio]

Although the long range of cruise missile can be seen as strategic move,Türkiye needs a cruise missile around 600 km with warhead 450kg is more urgent.Kale should make a new engine ,5000 newton power for this purpose.

 

[chngr]

This was discussed here few times.
Up to about 1200 to even 1400km range it doesn’t make economical sense to use a turbofan engine.
Tomahawk missiles have 2400km range. Fuel is precious commodity in such a long range. It has to take the missile longer per litre burnt. So a more expensive but frugal turbofan engine is a necessity.
Gezgin will have a range of 800-1200km range.

Tomahawk's range 1600km, not 2400km...Thats for small nuke warhead version

Scalp Naval (MdCN) also have turbojet engine...its range 1000km but warhead small 250kg

Turbofan>Turbojet....You have to compromise on range or/and warhead

 

[Yasar_TR]

Tomahawk's range 1600km, not 2400km...Thats for small nuke warhead version

Scalp Naval (MdCN) also have turbojet engine...its range 1000km but warhead small 250kg

Turbofan>Turbojet....You have to compromise on range or/and warhead

Before you write such definitive statements, you should investigate and support your claim with valid sources.

Tomahawk | Cruise Missile, History, Uses & Capabilities | Britannica

Tomahawk, American-made low-flying strategic guided missile that may be launched from naval ships or submarines to strike targets on land. It flies at low altitudes to strike fixed targets, such as communication and air-defense sites, in high-risk environments where manned aircraft may be

www.britannica.com

Quote

The Tomahawk is a long-range, unmanned weapon with an accuracy of about 5 metres (16 feet). The 5.6-metre- (18.4-foot-) long missile has a range of up to approximately 2,400 km (about 1,500 miles) and can travel as fast as 885 km (550 miles) per hour.

Unquote.

Other sources that give this range are:

Tomahawk Cruise Missile | National Air and Space Museum

airandspace.si.edu

Tomahawk | Missile Threat

The Tomahawk is an intermediate-range, subsonic cruise missile that is launched from U.S. Navy ships and submarines. It provides a long-range, deep strike capability. The Tomahawk can carry either conventional or nuclear payloads, though policy decisions have phased out their nuclear role...

missilethreat.csis.org

Yes there are various versions of it:

Operational range	Block II TLAM-N – 1,350 nmi (1,550 mi; 2,500 km) Block III TLAM-C, Block IV TLAM-E – 900 nmi (1,000 mi; 1,700 km) Block III TLAM-D – 700 nmi (810 mi; 1,300 km)[8] Block IV - 864nmi, 1000+ miles, 1600+ km Block Vb - 900+nmi, 1035+ miles, 1666+ km (exact range is classified)[9] RGM/UGM-109B TASM - 250 miles, 460 km[10]

But in essence it is a 2400 or 2500 km range cruise missile as far as its max range goes. It‘s length varies from 5.56 to 6.25 metres. That means the amount of ammo and fuel it carries will vary and in turn it’s range will be affected. Moreover, US and its other users UK and Australia, will not want real figures to be open to public and to their potential adversaries. And as part of public we have to take the given maximum range as a valid effective range.
Also, since we are discussing the reason of using a turbofan here, it is irrelevant if the range is 1600 or 2400 km. There are versions of it with turbojets and even a ramjet 3mach speed version is being worked on. Some versions have no more than 460km range.

 

[chngr]

Before you write such definitive statements, you should investigate and support your claim with valid sources.

Tomahawk | Cruise Missile, History, Uses & Capabilities | Britannica

Tomahawk, American-made low-flying strategic guided missile that may be launched from naval ships or submarines to strike targets on land. It flies at low altitudes to strike fixed targets, such as communication and air-defense sites, in high-risk environments where manned aircraft may be

www.britannica.com

Quote

The Tomahawk is a long-range, unmanned weapon with an accuracy of about 5 metres (16 feet). The 5.6-metre- (18.4-foot-) long missile has a range of up to approximately 2,400 km (about 1,500 miles) and can travel as fast as 885 km (550 miles) per hour.

Unquote.

Other sources that give this range are:

Tomahawk Cruise Missile | National Air and Space Museum

airandspace.si.edu

Tomahawk | Missile Threat

The Tomahawk is an intermediate-range, subsonic cruise missile that is launched from U.S. Navy ships and submarines. It provides a long-range, deep strike capability. The Tomahawk can carry either conventional or nuclear payloads, though policy decisions have phased out their nuclear role...

missilethreat.csis.org

Yes there are various versions of it:

Operational range	Block II TLAM-N – 1,350 nmi (1,550 mi; 2,500 km) Block III TLAM-C, Block IV TLAM-E – 900 nmi (1,000 mi; 1,700 km) Block III TLAM-D – 700 nmi (810 mi; 1,300 km)[8] Block IV - 864nmi, 1000+ miles, 1600+ km Block Vb - 900+nmi, 1035+ miles, 1666+ km (exact range is classified)[9] RGM/UGM-109B TASM - 250 miles, 460 km[10]

But in essence it is a 2400 or 2500 km range cruise missile as far as its max range goes. It‘s length varies from 5.56 to 6.25 metres. That means the amount of ammo and fuel it carries will vary and in turn it’s range will be affected. Moreover, US and its other users UK and Australia, will not want real figures to be open to public and to their potential adversaries. And as part of public we have to take the given maximum range as a valid effective range.
Also, since we are discussing the reason of using a turbofan here, it is irrelevant if the range is 1600 or 2400 km. There are versions of it with turbojets and even a ramjet 3mach speed version is being worked on. Some versions have no more than 460km range.

You just not read what your wrote

Block II TLAM-N....Means nuclear warhead version and those retired 10 years ago

5.56 length of missile...and 6.25 with booster

 

[Yasar_TR]

You just not read what your wrote

Block II TLAM-N....Means nuclear warhead version and those retired 10 years ago

5.56 length of missile...and 6.25 with booster

Oh! I have definitely read what I wrote.
But you haven’t read what I have written.
It just means that, with the right length and fuel, it has a potential of 2500km range. That is why a turbofan is a necessity.
just because, due to the limitation of nuclear cruise missiles agreement, the higher range is put on the back burner and stopped being used, doesn’t mean that the missile can’t reach that range. It was built to be a 2500km range missile.
You don’t need to be that contentious.

F16 has a ferry range of 4200+ km with drop tanks.
It has 7000lb internal fuel 5000lb external fuel.
Take out the drop tanks its ferry range will be greatly diminished.
If F16 should use afterburners, then all the range calculations are thrown out of perspective as it can finish its internal tank within 6 minutes at sea level afterburner. (64000lb per hour consumption)
So range figures are arbitrary. But they decide what the air platform’s potentials are.

 

[chngr]

Oh! I have definitely read what I wrote.
But you haven’t read what I have written.
It just means that, with the right length and fuel, it has a potential of 2500km range. That is why a turbofan is a necessity.
just because, due to the limitation of nuclear cruise missiles agreement, the higher range is put on the back burner and stopped being used, doesn’t mean that the missile can’t reach that range. It was built to be a 2500km range missile.
You don’t need to be that contentious.

F16 has a ferry range of 4200+ km with drop tanks.
It has 7000lb internal fuel 5000lb external fuel.
Take out the drop tanks its ferry range will be greatly diminished.
If F16 should use afterburners, then all the range calculations are thrown out of perspective as it can finish its internal tank within 6 minutes at sea level afterburner. (64000lb per hour consumption)
So range figures are arbitrary. But they decide what the air platform’s potentials are.

Missile lengths same that just with or without booster length

Only retired Block II TLAM-N version have 2400km range because its have small nuclear warhead..There is more space for fuel

All of the others 450kg conventional warhead versions's range 1600km or less

 

[Sanchez]

BOZDOĞAN and GÖKDOĞAN Missiles Ready for Acceptance Tests
Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün, President of SSB: "The design verification tests of our Bozdoğan and Gökdoğan missiles have been completed. We will carry out our tests with warhead ammunition and offer them to the use of our Air Forces."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1745444902673203617

Göktuğ tests continue.

GÖKDOĞAN, our first indigenous and national air-to-air BVR missile developed by TÜBİTAK Defense Industry R&D Institute @SageTubitak, hit the target aircraft with pinpoint accuracy during the capability demonstration firing test activities conducted with the Air Force Command.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1829570358585806988

 

[Sanchez]

Beyond-visual-range (BVR), AFAIK only air-to-ground and surface-to-surface missiles are called BLOS.

Google Translate failed me...

 

[TheInsider]

It seems like the LRIP missiles are delivered to the Air Force.

 

[Isbara]

Beyond-visual-range (BVR), AFAIK only air-to-ground and surface-to-surface missiles are called BLOS.

Afaik, NLos is used for Air to Surface or surface to surface missiles. Non Line of Sight

Spike Nlos for example.

 

[Isbara]

"Beyond-line-of-sight (BLOS) propagation is a special case of NLOS often encountered in very long-distance communication links blocked by earth bulge, terrain, or other obstructions. BLOS and NLOS are virtually identical conditions with BLOS being used by the military to describe much the same conditions as NLOS."

Wireless line-of-sight, non-line-of-sight, beyond-line-of-sight propagation - Control Engineering

Wireless setup tutorial: Reliability of using wireless for control depends in part on the type of wireless signal transmission and potential obstructions and impairments during the design process.

www.controleng.com

If I got the article correctly, we use the term "NLOS" for the range of the munition. How further that munition can go is described with the term NLOS.
But the term BLOS is more used for communication. When it comes to communicate with the muniton or data links, updating targets etc, on beyond visiual ranges we use the term BLOS..
Am I right ?

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1832844016632647723

I don't know how thrustworthy this Poster are, but is it true that Roketsan is developing a HGV for Cenk MRBM ?

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

AFAIK a HGV needs a Scramjet. Türkiye is developing a Ramjet right now, a Scramjet will take longer to develop.

It's not a hypersonic Cruise Missile, It's a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle. Glide mean it have no own Propulsion. The Missile accelarate the HGV to hypersonic Speeds.

 

[TheInsider]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1832844016632647723

I don't know how thrustworthy this Poster are, but is it true that Roketsan is developing a HGV for Cenk MRBM ?

It is true but this is not an HGV, also don't expect anything in the short term. All of those projects are post-2030.

 

[Afif]

It is true but this is not an HGV, also don't expect anything in the short term. All of those projects are post-2030.

Perhaps if they can start flight testing next year, it could be inducted by 2030. China started flight test with DF-ZF in 2014 and inducted it in 2019. (5 years of testing period)