TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[chngr]

If the production target of 4 helicopters per month can be reached at the beginning of 2026, this means that around 200 helicopters will be produced before 2030, which roughly corresponds to the replacement of at least +150 UH-1/204/205/212(which are counting the days for retirement in different force commands including gendarmerie), and the additional purchases of the ministries of forestry and health etc. In 2027, the indigenously designed engine will arrive, and if the work has already started, maybe we will see a Wildcat equivalent Denizbey around 2028-2029.

So what will you do after 2030? going to close the plant?

Is it not true that fast production is not always a good thing?

 

[Anmdt]

Looks like you guys waited for me to deliver the news!

Finally after years of delay, first T625 was officially, fully delivered to gendarme.

4 prototypes completed 1500 flight hours of tests to date.

Starting from 2025, "two additional GÖKBEYs will be delivered to the Gendarmerie, seven to the Land Forces, four to the Air Force, three to the Police Force and three to the Coast Guard, bringing the total number of deliveries to 20. On the other hand, 3 GÖKBEY Air Ambulances will be delivered to the Ministry of Health in 2026."
This first phase of 23 helicopters will be completed in 2026, so almost one a month. We know 3 T625s are already built and were tested but only one was delivered today, and per SSist other two will be delivered in 2025. I wonder what's the reason for that calendar.

"TAI continues its efforts to reach a production capacity of four GÖKBEYs per month. GÖKBEY is expected to be delivered with indigenous engines by 2027."

GÖKBEY helikopteri Jandarma envanterinde: Bir ilk

TUSAŞ, ilk GÖKBEY Genel Maksat Helikopteri’ni Jandarma Genel Komutanlığı’na teslim etti. Düzenlenen törene, Cumhurbaşkanı Erdoğan da katıldı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

As mentioned by SSist, no local engine deliveries will be made for the first phase and TS1400 will apparently continue its tests. "T625 with local engines are expected after 2028..."

What's most surprising was this for me however. I wonder if it was a gaffe by Erdoğan. "Plans are underway for the serial production of an additional 57 GÖKBEY helicopters for the needs of the Turkish Naval Forces Command." Should we expect a navalized ASW specialized T625? I wish!

Cumhurbaşkanı Erdoğan: Savunma sanayisinde tam bağımsız Türkiye hayalimizi gerçeğe dönüştürünceye kadar durmak yok

Cumhurbaşkanı Erdoğan, "Savunma sanayisinde tam bağımsız Türkiye hayalimizi gerçeğe dönüştürünceye kadar bize durmak, dinlenmek, nefeslenmek yok." dedi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

View attachment 71662

Eventhough not navalized, Gökbey may serve the GM duties for Navy. But there was a word, once upon a time, that dipping sonar will be tested on Gökbey.

What is more surprising neither Land Forces awaiting for Gökbey to replace aged UH-1, nor Airforce places an order as high number as Navy's.

 

[Saithan]

Eventhough not navalized, Gökbey may serve the GM duties for Navy. But there was a word, once upon a time, that dipping sonar will be tested on Gökbey.

What is more surprising neither Land Forces awaiting for Gökbey to replace aged UH-1, nor Airforce places an order as high number as Navy's.

I genuinely suspect that these politicians want to weaken our armed forces just enough not to be a threat to them, but can be used as cannon fodder to outwards enemies. TN is being considered as political tool because the big vessels can be sent around to foister their interests and as such TN doesn't pose a direct threat to these politicians as their domain is the sea and they can't reach Ankara.

 

[Radonsider]

I genuinely suspect that these politicians want to weaken our armed forces just enough not to be a threat to them, but can be used as cannon fodder to outwards enemies. TN is being considered as political tool because the big vessels can be sent around to foister their interests and as such TN doesn't pose a direct threat to these politicians as their domain is the sea and they can't reach Ankara.

Politicians?

Blame KKK or HvKK for not showing interest

 

[Tornadoss]

Politicians?

Blame KKK or HvKK for not showing interest

It's not Army branches that is making purchases but SSB.

 

[Sanchez]

It's not Army branches that is making purchases but SSB.

It's a bit more complex than that.

Eventhough not navalized, Gökbey may serve the GM duties for Navy. But there was a word, once upon a time, that dipping sonar will be tested on Gökbey.

What is more surprising neither Land Forces awaiting for Gökbey to replace aged UH-1, nor Airforce places an order as high number as Navy's.

We argued about this a lot in the past. I still think a T625N could be a pretty good standin for a Wildcat and could supplement our Seahawks. It can carry marines, missiles, sonobuoys, single torpedos, radar, dipping sonar. Maybe it wouldn't be a complete package like MH-60S, but it would be ours. We could employ two sets of T625s as hunter killer ASW formations, one to carry sonobuoy and sonar, other to carry the torpedo, like the Soviets did with Ka-27 back in the day. Unsure if Brits do it, but we know Koreans do use their Wildcat in hunter killer formations.

Wonder if Istifs could carry two folded T625s in their hangar if they made a really tight fit.
We use Seahawks to fight wildfires and to strike ground targets, to carry SAT teams. Maybe Seahawks could be relegated to only ASW duties and T625 could take the GM role as you said. It could carry 4 UMTAS-GMs or 2 Çakırs, could carry a full SAT team. I think its potential is pretty big and will be a great clean slate to work on.

 

[Anmdt]

Wonder if Istifs could carry two folded T625s in their hangar if they made a really tight fit.

I doubt this, but at least we can relieve Seahawks of the non-combat duties and assign them to the particular ships, while deploying T625Ns Anadolu and OPVs.

We use Seahawks to fight wildfires and to strike ground targets, to carry SAT teams. Maybe Seahawks could be relegated to only ASW duties and T625 could take the GM role as you said. It could carry 4 UMTAS-GMs or 2 Çakırs, could carry a full SAT team. I think its potential is pretty big and will be a great clean slate to work on.

We know Navy's habit, if T625 is navalized they will squeeze the design to the last drop. I am even happy to see an intention. At least it will be a gap filler until T925N arrives at Anadolu.

 

[dBSPL]

So what will you do after 2030? going to close the plant?

Is it not true that fast production is not always a good thing?

I can't decide whether you are making fun of me or you serious. Even if TAI reaches the targeted production rate of 4 T625 helicopters per month, we will only be able to replace the old UH-1 and its derivatives in 5 years (recently, another one of these helicopters crashed and we lost our personnel). This does not include additional requirement definitions.

With this helicopter, we now know for sure that export negotiations with 2 or 3 countries have reached an important stage, and this number will increase significantly when the production line starts full-scale mass production. In addition to this, we understand from the latest announcements that there is also the possibility of being evaluated as a medium-class utulity/multi-role with 57 helicopters for the navy. In addition to the various force commands, the police force will also be a major buyer, and ministries, particularly health and forestry, will also receive these helicopters.

One of the reason why the development process of the T625 was so long and arduous was the completion of civil certifications and European civil aviation standards. In other words, as well as government agencies, the second segment that this helicopter addresses is the civilian market and VIP transportation. The market on this side is potentially as large as the military market. If the urgent needs are met and the expected export target is not achieved, the production line will continue at two helicopters per month instead of four helicopters per month, no problem; TAI still has heavier class utility and attack helicopter projects ahead of it. However, it is important to note that while we have known for nearly five years that the targeted production capacity is two helicopters per month and made our comments accordingly, official figures have been talking about four helicopters per month for the last few months, which gives clues about both domestic needs and foreign demand.

In short, the Gökbey platform is a major aviation project with multiple engine options and at least 4-5 different variants with different code numbers, aiming to reach at least 500-600 production numbers. It would not have been so overshadowed if we had not embarked on top-end projects like the KAAN.

 

[Sanchez]

I doubt this, but at least we can relieve Seahawks of the non-combat duties and assign them to the particular ships, while deploying T625Ns Anadolu and OPVs.


We know Navy's habit, if T625 is navalized they will squeeze the design to the last drop. I am even happy to see an intention. At least it will be a gap filler until T925N arrives at Anadolu.

Just spitballing here but could there be a possible scenario to keep the 4 modded Gabyas in service for 1-2 more decades? Those double hangars give them an ability only amphibious ships have, carrying more than a single helicopter. Other 4 could feed them parts for few more years, no? We only had Duncan for years. Of course nothing beats new ships, but it is a capability that will be lost regardless.

Basic maths, navy currently have 8 Gabyas, 6+2 Mekos(4 only can carry 212s), 1 İstif, 4 Adas, Ufuk, 5 LSTs without hangars, Derya(with space for 1+2) 4 oilers and 3 sub rescue ships without hangars. That's a total of 31 hangar spaces and 12 ships without hangars. As well as Anadolu with up to 30 helicopters. Its light load we've seen so far in exercises is 3 AH-1Ws, 3 Cougars and 2-3 Seahawks, i'll take it as a simple 10. So that's 43 heli spots+Anadolu. We have 23 Seahawks, 4 212s and 8 AH-1Ws. Of course, even in a perfect world, helicopter/ship number will not be 1/1. All these aircraft are land based when not deployed, not ship based.

With the planned navy enlargement program, we will lose the 4 older Mekos, but will add 7 İstifs and 10 OPVs in a decade or so, increasing our hangar size to 43 from 31 on our surface combatants. T625N could be used on all OPVs, and in all kinds of general purpose missions. They can be deployed on oilers for VERTREP missions, used in anti piracy missions on OPVs, can carry strike teams, missiles, torpedos, sonobuoys.

 

[Saithan]

I would very much like to see Gökbey Navalized version, but it's important that the 4 a month production can be kept going for several decades. And with our own TS1400 of course. As I see it we need to be able to replace all helicopters in Turkic speaking countries.

 

[dBSPL]

Emergency medical intervention and ambulance variant for the Ministry of Health, traffic control and air observation variant for the Ministry of Interior, Search and rescue variant for the Coast Guard, I don't know, maybe fire intervention variant, VIP transport, almost 7-8 configurations can be listed on the military side; these are just purchases that state institutions need to make. Add up all Bell 2xx, UH--1s, etc. helicopters with a service life of over 20 years, under 6-7 tons MTOW. Take into account the growing needs of these organizations; all these needs alone create VERY huge order block.

If the issue discussed by Anmdt and Sanchez üstads above is also undertaken(to develop a configuration for the navy), the Gökbey production line will be full for the first 10 years even without any exports or civilian sales. Maybe Kaan Azman will do a Wildcat-like Gökbey study for us if he finds the time. Frankly, even this possibility made me very happy, I hope this step is taken.


Anyway, my very rough estimate: An average of 90-120 for state institutions affiliated with the Ministry of Interior, 60-80 for other ministries and state institutions, 120-200 for the Land and Air Forces, and let's say 30-50 for the Navy (fingers crossed); the potential for state purchases is between 280/300ish to 400 units. If full-scale mass production is started in 2028-29 as Sanchez üstad predicted; this means that even the orders of state institutions alone will be completed in around 11-15 years at the earliest, counting from today. And probably almost half of the capacity will be allocated to foreign sales. There is a very large user base in this class in the world, especially in the law enforcement and other government agencies, almost half of them have the UH-1 and the civilian variants of this helicopter, which should be replaced until next dacade. Gökbey will most likely be our aviation platform that has the most tender participating in the world for the next 10-15 years. It was not without reason that all components of the programme, including the type approval of the TS1400, were accompanied by international civil certification.

 

[Radonsider]

It's not Army branches that is making purchases but SSB.

Not really, it is a long list but in the end it boils down to the command.


If it was solely SSB, we would have had Hurkuş in service by now 10 times lol

 

[hugh]

T129 ATAK in flight with its new EO/IR camera!

At the delivery ceremony of the GÖKBEY general purpose helicopter, it was seen that the T129 ATAK PHASE-II helicopters were flying with the new EO/IR camera @aselsan ASELFLIR-410.

Developed by ASELSAN, ASELFLIR-410 replaced the existing ASELFLIR-300T EO/IR camera on the helicopter.

ASELFLIR-410 is a much more advanced product than ASELFLIR-300T.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1851624115997667528

 

[Khagan1923]

T129 ATAK in flight with its new EO/IR camera!

At the delivery ceremony of the GÖKBEY general purpose helicopter, it was seen that the T129 ATAK PHASE-II helicopters were flying with the new EO/IR camera @aselsan ASELFLIR-410.

Developed by ASELSAN, ASELFLIR-410 replaced the existing ASELFLIR-300T EO/IR camera on the helicopter.

ASELFLIR-410 is a much more advanced product than ASELFLIR-300T.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1851624115997667528

Now I am curious if we are gonna see the rest of Phase-III upgrades happen, last update was that Phase-III was cancelled but with T-929 delayed indefinitly TSK might want to revive parts of Phase-III.

 

[Kartal1]

Now I am curious if we are gonna see the rest of Phase-III upgrades happen, last update was that Phase-III was cancelled but with T-929 delayed indefinitly TSK might want to revive parts of Phase-III.

What would we add to the Phase 3 as a package?

 

[Khagan1923]

What would we add to the Phase 3 as a package?

1.Large Area Display
2. Fire Location Detection System, SEDA
3. Avci-2 Helmet
4. MUM-T

These were the main ones, in addition to replacement of Aselflir-300T with Aselflir-410.

 

[Sanchez]

Now I am curious if we are gonna see the rest of Phase-III upgrades happen, last update was that Phase-III was cancelled but with T-929 delayed indefinitly TSK might want to revive parts of Phase-III.

For that to happen, army needs to place an order. Gendarme's order was still ongoing so they get the new flir, more than likely because AF-300 is out of production. There's still the issue with the licensing as well, and whether Leonardo will be willing to keep building parts while they are now transferring resources to AW249.

 

[Huelague]

Now I am curious if we are gonna see the rest of Phase-III upgrades happen, last update was that Phase-III was cancelled but with T-929 delayed indefinitly TSK might want to revive parts of Phase-III.

Is the MMW Radar ad acta for T-129?

 

[Khagan1923]

For that to happen, army needs to place an order. Gendarme's order was still ongoing so they get the new flir, more than likely because AF-300 is out of production. There's still the issue with the licensing as well, and whether Leonardo will be willing to keep building parts while they are now transferring resources to AW249.

Phase-I T-129 were also supposed to be gradually upgraded to Phase-II. To My knowledge that has not happened either.

Curious to see what the Land Forces plan is after T-929 being delayed/frozen for the time being.

 

[Khagan1923]

Is the MMW Radar ad acta for T-129?

MMW Radar to my knowledge was not taken into consideration as the fuselage was already at its limits. And we haven’t heard much about Meteksans MILDAR for I believe a couple years now.