TR Aircraft Carrier and Amphibious Ship Programs

[dBSPL]

The first thing that catches the attention of foreigners in this concept model is a twin-engined and unmanned main combatant jets. There are no active examples in the world's navies, and in the next 20 years, there will be a combat aviation approach that we will rarely see first generation examples in the world's navies. Whether or not we will be able to handle this is a matter for another discussion, but if the topic of discussion is the near future naval aviation trends and fields of work in naval combatant aviation, it is a fact that we are also focusing on this, and that we are even pursuing ambitious work on our own scale. One is an agile-designed interceptor jet, and the other is a flexible platform capable of undertaking a variety of strategic missions, from penetrator bomber to tactical aerial refueling. Both programs will be forked with different variants in the future. There are those who think that Turkiye will fail in this area, and there are those who are in a wait-and-see mode.

On the other side, main focus of our local social media and Turkish defense enthusiasts circles was the Hürjet. Sometimes we get stuck in really narrow preconceptions. I dont know that we think that the navy, which wants to land stealth penetrator bomber aircraft and twin-engined unmanned interceptor jets on the same ship, will be content with the specs of the Hürjet only, even its AJT variant specs. Hürjet may never be the main fighter on this aircraft. Perhaps it will be designed as an air control aircraft for unmanned platforms, we don't know yet. But there are those who think that after the Hürjet Naval adaptation, the Turkish aviation industry and the naval air force will say gentlemen, okay, there is no need for further work, this is enough! My guess is that there is a direct manned combat naval jet work, but it is not yet declassified, and considering the aviation programs, the air force has the highest priority, so they cannot put the concept model on the ship models yet. KE's situation is different. Baykar is already developing platforms directly for the navy. On the TAI side, the KAAN configuration desired by the air force should be revealed first.

Edit: Of course, there is something else. The wingspan of the model shown as the naval variant of the Hürjet is at least 9.5 meters, and perhaps, efforts are being made to increase it to over 10 meters. The F-35B is an aircraft that can fit anywhere the Hurjet can fit, perhaps not in volume or wing area but in width and length.

 

[Sanchez]

Akbaba claims MUGEM will start construction in 2025. Much faster than I anticipated. @Anmdt if navy decides to build it themselves, do they currently have a slipway ready for it in Istanbul or would it be made in a private shipyard, maybe like Sedef again?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854813779667644799

 

[Anmdt]

Akbaba claims MUGEM will start construction in 2025. Much faster than I anticipated. @Anmdt if navy decides to build it themselves, do they currently have a slipway ready for it in Istanbul or would it be made in a private shipyard, maybe like Sedef again?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854813779667644799

I can call this total BS.

Before the construction starts, since TN wants to build it in Pendik Naval Shipyard (Istanbul Shipyard Command, ITK), the drydock has to be renovated and adapted. But before all, TN's first goal is to start construction of TF-2000, launch it and then take the dry dock and convert it for suitable use, for National AC.

And finally, the design is still in the cradle, neither the design office nor any person in TR currently has the slightest idea about an AC. Yes, a conceptual design can mature within a few months, up to a year, the second stage, which we call necessary, is contract / functional design, will certainly take years. But there is another constraint I mentioned before; TN wants to build it in the Naval Shipyard and there is no dry dock to support it currently, (also mind, you can't just slide an AC down from the slipway, neither the current dimensions of the slipway support it anyway). Yes it seems like the only way to build an AC in a drydock, right away. If i recall correctly TCG Anadolu was build the same way.

Another reason why AC cannot be built in private shipyards is that only Navy (i.e. state) alone can take all financial-technical risks for AC. Nevertheless, ITK will outsource the construction of some blocks similar to the British ACs.

However, this could be TCG Trakya, which will be built in Sedef shipyard. And the construction will start after the launch of the I-class hulls.

Sorry to take away everyone's excitement, but we have other priorities at the moment; Refreshing the aged frigate fleet (with Barbaros MLU, I-class orders, Ada MLU), commissioning of a light OPV class ( for overseas operations like Qatar, Somalia), TF-2000 (as the AAW backbone at sea), MILDEN with a VLS, a functional TCG Trakya with a larger deck to support larger aircraft, and STOBAR (probably) - (to practice and train an air wing before the AC), then comes the National AC as the last stone on top.​

 

[Anmdt]

I can call this total BS.

Before the construction starts, since TN wants to build it in Pendik Naval Shipyard (Istanbul Shipyard Command, ITK), the drydock has to be renovated and adapted. But before all, TN's first goal is to start construction of TF-2000, launch it and then take the dry dock and convert it for suitable use, for National AC.

And finally, the design is still in the cradle, neither the design office nor any person in TR currently has the slightest idea about an AC. Yes, a conceptual design can mature within a few months, up to a year, the second stage, which we call necessary, is contract / functional design, will certainly take years. But there is another constraint I mentioned before; TN wants to build it in the Naval Shipyard and there is no dry dock to support it currently, (also mind, you can't just slide an AC down from the slipway, neither the current dimensions of the slipway support it anyway). Yes it seems like the only way to build an AC in a drydock, right away. If i recall correctly TCG Anadolu was build the same way.

Another reason why AC cannot be built in private shipyards is that only Navy (i.e. state) alone can take all financial-technical risks for AC. Nevertheless, ITK will outsource the construction of some blocks similar to the British ACs.

However, this could be TCG Trakya, which will be built in Sedef shipyard. And the construction will start after the launch of the I-class hulls.

Sorry to take away everyone's excitement, but we have other priorities at the moment; Refreshing the aged frigate fleet (with Barbaros MLU, I-class orders, Ada MLU), commissioning of a light OPV class ( for overseas operations like Qatar, Somalia), TF-2000 (as the AAW backbone at sea), MILDEN with a VLS, a functional TCG Trakya with a larger deck to support larger aircraft, and STOBAR (probably) - (to practice and train an air wing before the AC), then comes the National AC as the last stone on top.​

We can refer to this image easily, first LHD was planned to be commissioned in 2021, however due to the circumstances it was possible in 2023 / 2024. And since the second hull (Trakya) meant to commence around the delivery of the first hull, we can say this list is valid by shift of 5 years.

 

[Strong AI]

Sorry to take away everyone's excitement

First i have to see the fixed-wing aircraft and rotary-wing aircraft, to be used on the AC, in serial production.

 

[Ripley]

First i have to see the fixed-wing aircraft and rotary-wing aircraft, to be used on the AC, in serial production.

A bunch of navalized Gökbeys would be great. And an addition couple (hopefully) T925 would mean a lot of overseas independent fleet operations as well (a jet fighter of course is a priority)
We need the last one and we need it bad.
We need that 10 ton heavy duty operator in all our services tbh.

 

[Kartal1]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

 

[boredaf]

I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

I couldn't agree more with your overall point and especially this part. An aircraft carrier is not something you half-arse, you either do it right or it is a complete waste of resources. And it requires an enormous amount of resources. Closest thing to our planned carrier, as far as I can think of, is UK's Queen Elizabeth class, they each cost over 3 billion pounds. And that is without the cost of the aircraft on them or the warships and auxiliaries around them. And without all of their operation costs over time.

It is an incredible amount of money to put down into 1 project and the result of that project, the carrier, is a giant target on the sea so you have to be able to protect it. Royal Navy cannot protect theirs by themselves, that's why are either escorted by other NATO fleets or they sail with ships from Dutch navy. But we might not always have that luxury ourselves, so we cannot rely on that.

If we are not going design and put a 5th gen plane on it, it makes no sense to devote so much time and money into the project, imo. If the drones are supposed to be driving force behind the carrier, then we don't need it. For that money we can make Trakya and 2 more like it but with more focus on drones and possibly USVs (and if it is possible make changes to Anadolu as well) and keep building our surface fleets around them.

But if we are going to plow through with this aircraft carrier idea then we better do it properly. After Kaan's design process is done, teams that worked on it should immediately start on a navalised version for the carrier, whether as it is right now or a smaller version using 1 TF35K. Hürjet will require modifications as well after all, we'd be better off modifying Kaan.

 

[Zoth]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

Even if we had a navalized version of Kaan TODAY, it wouldn't be able to take off from that AC, we need a Nuclear one so we can utilize CATOBAR and EMALS.

What i do personally think is that, we are going to build that first MUGEM only and only to start learning about ACs and later on make a proper one that has CATOBAR / EMALS.

Is that a good approach? I have no idea.

The 2nd possibility which has like 1% possibility to happen, is that they are aiming to fix relations with USA and acquire some F35Bs, then the whole situation would change.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

Absolutely, a Turkish AC without Kaan or some equivalent of it is just cringe beyond believe.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Akbaba claims MUGEM will start construction in 2025. Much faster than I anticipated. @Anmdt if navy decides to build it themselves, do they currently have a slipway ready for it in Istanbul or would it be made in a private shipyard, maybe like Sedef again?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854813779667644799

Thats nice news but should destroyers and submarines should build first to company its group !
And the navy dont have large shipyard to build it but i heard at news months ago that it will be build somewhere to cannakale marmara sea .

 

[Anmdt]

Thats nice news but should destroyers and submarines should build first to company its group !
And the navy dont have large shipyard to build it but i heard at news months ago that it will be build somewhere to cannakale marmara sea .
View attachment 71921

Who makes this stuff up?

How do you build an AC without a proper infastructure to build one? A single dry dock is not sufficient for the matter.

And a private company did built the drydock in Çanakkale, they advertised it as 'AC drydock' few years ago, taking the initiative just because of the dimensions. They currently overhaul and dock tankers etc. This is how greatly they make it up by telling ' a new dry dock is being built for AC ', man it is made and operates already.

Plenty other shipyards have large floating or fixed dry docks yet they don't do this. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Kartal1]

Even if we had a navalized version of Kaan TODAY, it wouldn't be able to take off from that AC, we need a Nuclear one so we can utilize CATOBAR and EMALS.

What i do personally think is that, we are going to build that first MUGEM only and only to start learning about ACs and later on make a proper one that has CATOBAR / EMALS.

Is that a good approach? I have no idea.

The 2nd possibility which has like 1% possibility to happen, is that they are aiming to fix relations with USA and acquire some F35Bs then the whole situation would change.

I am not an expert on the topic, but if we are not going to be able to fly fighter jets in the class of KAAN from it what's the purpose of it? Wouldn't we be able to sent a KAAN class fighter jet with the STOBAR that will be integrated to it?

In terms of "learning about" AC building I think there are far better ways of doing it. We have wonderful relationships with countries like the UK, Spain and Italy and I am sure they will be happy to provide knowledge and assistance. We don't have the luxury to screw up an AC project.

So, what are our alternatives for a fighter that can be operated from this AC and what are the prospects for the future (a question to all)?

Harriers? No. F18? Will be outdated by then. F-35Bs? Very high political risk even if approved.

What other viable options we have on the table? Is there any country that's developing a good alternative that we would be able to acquire without significant political strings (if we don't count Russian and Chinese alternatives)? What's the chance of us developing a smaller and compatible stealth fighter jet derived from KAAN within a decent timeframe that would allow us to utilize this AC not long after it is commissioned?

On the question about the drones I personally think that we are very, very far from the level of maturing of these technologies and the existing design concepts that would allow us to give UAVs the primary role in such operations and I am taking in account the level of AI assistance in a heavy EW environment which would require enhanced autonomy.

 

[Zoth]

I am not an expert on the topic, but if we are not going to be able to fly fighter jets in the class of KAAN from it what's the purpose of it? Wouldn't we be able to sent a KAAN class fighter jet with the STOBAR that will be integrated to it?

In theory, Kaan could work from a STOBAR carrier, but it would need some big changes. Since it’s designed as a land-based stealth fighter, it would need stronger landing gear, an arrestor hook for landing, and really powerful engines to get enough speed on a short takeoff ramp.

Even with these upgrades, it likely couldn’t take off with full fuel and weapons due to weight limits, which is a common STOBAR issue. This would mean shorter range and limited mission endurance, making Kaan less flexible than carrier-specific jets. Using CATOBAR or even better, EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System) would be ideal for a heavy jet like Kaan since they can launch fully loaded aircraft, but this would require a whole new carrier setup. So, while Kaan could theoretically operate from STOBAR, a CATOBAR system would make it a much better fit for carrier missions.

In terms of "learning about" AC building I think there are far better ways of doing it. We have wonderful relationships with countries like the UK, Spain and Italy and I am sure they will be happy to provide knowledge and assistance. We don't have the luxury to screw up an AC project.

About this, as i said before too, to be totally honest i have no idea what would be the best approach. I don't think that we should go the route of UK. Mastering/learning Nuclear Technology should be our goal even if it's going to take much longer to finish it.

Harriers? No. F18? Will be outdated by then. F-35Bs? Very high political risk even if approved.

I may be wrong but F35B despite the political risks, suits our needs really well, we can make multiple TCG Anadolus and use it for F35s and our unmanned Jets until we learn on how to make a proper AC.

What other viable options we have on the table? Is there any country that's developing a good alternative that we would be able to acquire without significant political strings (if we don't count Russian and Chinese alternatives)? What's the chance of us developing a smaller and compatible stealth fighter jet derived from KAAN within a decent timeframe that would allow us to utilize this AC not long after it is commissioned?

This is the real question, our MIC's capacity is not enough to pump out both Kaan, Hurjet and a Navalized version of Kaan in the same timeframe, if we had F35s today, maybe we could delay the land version of Kaan and focus on navalized version of Kaan or vise versa.

On the question about the drones I personally think that we are very, very far from the level of maturing of these technologies and the existing design concepts that would allow us to give UAVs the primary role in such operations and I am taking in account the level of AI assistance in a heavy EW environment which would require enhanced autonomy.

I personally think that Hurjet is a project which is very underestimated, we should've focused on making Hurjet a capable light strike fighter and develop an engine for it first, rather than making Kaan, most people will disagree with this, but i personally think that Hurjet could've become our new "F16s" and close the gap that we have for finishing Kaan.