TR Aircraft Carrier & Amphibious Ship Programs

[Ripley]

First i have to see the fixed-wing aircraft and rotary-wing aircraft, to be used on the AC, in serial production.

A bunch of navalized Gökbeys would be great. And an addition couple (hopefully) T925 would mean a lot of overseas independent fleet operations as well (a jet fighter of course is a priority)
We need the last one and we need it bad.
We need that 10 ton heavy duty operator in all our services tbh.

 

[Kartal1]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

 

[boredaf]

I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

I couldn't agree more with your overall point and especially this part. An aircraft carrier is not something you half-arse, you either do it right or it is a complete waste of resources. And it requires an enormous amount of resources. Closest thing to our planned carrier, as far as I can think of, is UK's Queen Elizabeth class, they each cost over 3 billion pounds. And that is without the cost of the aircraft on them or the warships and auxiliaries around them. And without all of their operation costs over time.

It is an incredible amount of money to put down into 1 project and the result of that project, the carrier, is a giant target on the sea so you have to be able to protect it. Royal Navy cannot protect theirs by themselves, that's why are either escorted by other NATO fleets or they sail with ships from Dutch navy. But we might not always have that luxury ourselves, so we cannot rely on that.

If we are not going design and put a 5th gen plane on it, it makes no sense to devote so much time and money into the project, imo. If the drones are supposed to be driving force behind the carrier, then we don't need it. For that money we can make Trakya and 2 more like it but with more focus on drones and possibly USVs (and if it is possible make changes to Anadolu as well) and keep building our surface fleets around them.

But if we are going to plow through with this aircraft carrier idea then we better do it properly. After Kaan's design process is done, teams that worked on it should immediately start on a navalised version for the carrier, whether as it is right now or a smaller version using 1 TF35K. Hürjet will require modifications as well after all, we'd be better off modifying Kaan.

 

[Zoth]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

Even if we had a navalized version of Kaan TODAY, it wouldn't be able to take off from that AC, we need a Nuclear one so we can utilize CATOBAR and EMALS.

What i do personally think is that, we are going to build that first MUGEM only and only to start learning about ACs and later on make a proper one that has CATOBAR / EMALS.

Is that a good approach? I have no idea.

The 2nd possibility which has like 1% possibility to happen, is that they are aiming to fix relations with USA and acquire some F35Bs, then the whole situation would change.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

Absolutely, a Turkish AC without Kaan or some equivalent of it is just cringe beyond believe.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Akbaba claims MUGEM will start construction in 2025. Much faster than I anticipated. @Anmdt if navy decides to build it themselves, do they currently have a slipway ready for it in Istanbul or would it be made in a private shipyard, maybe like Sedef again?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854813779667644799

Thats nice news but should destroyers and submarines should build first to company its group !
And the navy dont have large shipyard to build it but i heard at news months ago that it will be build somewhere to cannakale marmara sea .

 

[Anmdt]

Thats nice news but should destroyers and submarines should build first to company its group !
And the navy dont have large shipyard to build it but i heard at news months ago that it will be build somewhere to cannakale marmara sea .
View attachment 71921

Who makes this stuff up?

How do you build an AC without a proper infastructure to build one? A single dry dock is not sufficient for the matter.

And a private company did built the drydock in Çanakkale, they advertised it as 'AC drydock' few years ago, taking the initiative just because of the dimensions. They currently overhaul and dock tankers etc. This is how greatly they make it up by telling ' a new dry dock is being built for AC ', man it is made and operates already.

Plenty other shipyards have large floating or fixed dry docks yet they don't do this. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Kartal1]

Even if we had a navalized version of Kaan TODAY, it wouldn't be able to take off from that AC, we need a Nuclear one so we can utilize CATOBAR and EMALS.

What i do personally think is that, we are going to build that first MUGEM only and only to start learning about ACs and later on make a proper one that has CATOBAR / EMALS.

Is that a good approach? I have no idea.

The 2nd possibility which has like 1% possibility to happen, is that they are aiming to fix relations with USA and acquire some F35Bs then the whole situation would change.

I am not an expert on the topic, but if we are not going to be able to fly fighter jets in the class of KAAN from it what's the purpose of it? Wouldn't we be able to sent a KAAN class fighter jet with the STOBAR that will be integrated to it?

In terms of "learning about" AC building I think there are far better ways of doing it. We have wonderful relationships with countries like the UK, Spain and Italy and I am sure they will be happy to provide knowledge and assistance. We don't have the luxury to screw up an AC project.

So, what are our alternatives for a fighter that can be operated from this AC and what are the prospects for the future (a question to all)?

Harriers? No. F18? Will be outdated by then. F-35Bs? Very high political risk even if approved.

What other viable options we have on the table? Is there any country that's developing a good alternative that we would be able to acquire without significant political strings (if we don't count Russian and Chinese alternatives)? What's the chance of us developing a smaller and compatible stealth fighter jet derived from KAAN within a decent timeframe that would allow us to utilize this AC not long after it is commissioned?

On the question about the drones I personally think that we are very, very far from the level of maturing of these technologies and the existing design concepts that would allow us to give UAVs the primary role in such operations and I am taking in account the level of AI assistance in a heavy EW environment which would require enhanced autonomy.

 

[Zoth]

I am not an expert on the topic, but if we are not going to be able to fly fighter jets in the class of KAAN from it what's the purpose of it? Wouldn't we be able to sent a KAAN class fighter jet with the STOBAR that will be integrated to it?

In theory, Kaan could work from a STOBAR carrier, but it would need some big changes. Since it’s designed as a land-based stealth fighter, it would need stronger landing gear, an arrestor hook for landing, and really powerful engines to get enough speed on a short takeoff ramp.

Even with these upgrades, it likely couldn’t take off with full fuel and weapons due to weight limits, which is a common STOBAR issue. This would mean shorter range and limited mission endurance, making Kaan less flexible than carrier-specific jets. Using CATOBAR or even better, EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System) would be ideal for a heavy jet like Kaan since they can launch fully loaded aircraft, but this would require a whole new carrier setup. So, while Kaan could theoretically operate from STOBAR, a CATOBAR system would make it a much better fit for carrier missions.

In terms of "learning about" AC building I think there are far better ways of doing it. We have wonderful relationships with countries like the UK, Spain and Italy and I am sure they will be happy to provide knowledge and assistance. We don't have the luxury to screw up an AC project.

About this, as i said before too, to be totally honest i have no idea what would be the best approach. I don't think that we should go the route of UK. Mastering/learning Nuclear Technology should be our goal even if it's going to take much longer to finish it.

Harriers? No. F18? Will be outdated by then. F-35Bs? Very high political risk even if approved.

I may be wrong but F35B despite the political risks, suits our needs really well, we can make multiple TCG Anadolus and use it for F35s and our unmanned Jets until we learn on how to make a proper AC.

What other viable options we have on the table? Is there any country that's developing a good alternative that we would be able to acquire without significant political strings (if we don't count Russian and Chinese alternatives)? What's the chance of us developing a smaller and compatible stealth fighter jet derived from KAAN within a decent timeframe that would allow us to utilize this AC not long after it is commissioned?

This is the real question, our MIC's capacity is not enough to pump out both Kaan, Hurjet and a Navalized version of Kaan in the same timeframe, if we had F35s today, maybe we could delay the land version of Kaan and focus on navalized version of Kaan or vise versa.

On the question about the drones I personally think that we are very, very far from the level of maturing of these technologies and the existing design concepts that would allow us to give UAVs the primary role in such operations and I am taking in account the level of AI assistance in a heavy EW environment which would require enhanced autonomy.

I personally think that Hurjet is a project which is very underestimated, we should've focused on making Hurjet a capable light strike fighter and develop an engine for it first, rather than making Kaan, most people will disagree with this, but i personally think that Hurjet could've become our new "F16s" and close the gap that we have for finishing Kaan.

 

[Anmdt]

I am not an expert on the topic, but if we are not going to be able to fly fighter jets in the class of KAAN from it what's the purpose of it? Wouldn't we be able to sent a KAAN class fighter jet with the STOBAR that will be integrated to it?

In terms of "learning about" AC building I think there are far better ways of doing it. We have wonderful relationships with countries like the UK, Spain and Italy and I am sure they will be happy to provide knowledge and assistance. We don't have the luxury to screw up an AC project.

So, what are our alternatives for a fighter that can be operated from this AC and what are the prospects for the future (a question to all)?

Harriers? No. F18? Will be outdated by then. F-35Bs? Very high political risk even if approved.

What other viable options we have on the table? Is there any country that's developing a good alternative that we would be able to acquire without significant political strings (if we don't count Russian and Chinese alternatives)? What's the chance of us developing a smaller and compatible stealth fighter jet derived from KAAN within a decent timeframe that would allow us to utilize this AC not long after it is commissioned?

On the question about the drones I personally think that we are very, very far from the level of maturing of these technologies and the existing design concepts that would allow us to give UAVs the primary role in such operations and I am taking in account the level of AI assistance in a heavy EW environment which would require enhanced autonomy.

F-35B + Anka 3/4 + KE with TF6000 in the medium term seems like a feasible solution to me. F35B has unmatching sensor, network and EW capabilities that we may not offer on UAVs until AC is commissioned.

If we base our mid-term needs on F-16 or F110, F404 engines, we might as well get a batch of F-35Bs to reinforce LHD and AC. We don't need a wing for each, but a wing of 8 on LHD and 24 on AC would be sufficient for the long term.

If there are any political disagreements, we will suffer from the F404 / F110 decisions, just as we are suffering from the F-35B. And at least Anka 3/4, KE will serve as a development line for autonomous deployment and operations.

Assuming KAAN's latest block goes into serial production by 2035, with the domestic engine, TAI can start working on single engine stealth and smaller fighter jet capable of operating with drone wingman.

AC construction will begin somewhere between 2025 - 30, and delivery around 2035. By 2030 we have Anadolu, between 30 and 35 we have Anadolu and upgraded Trakya to train with. Possibly only Trakya will be able to support KE / Anka 3/4 after 2030, we need a fighter wing to practice, learn until 2035, even just to train a naval aviation wing.

 

[Kartal1]

F-35B + Anka 3/4 + KE with TF6000 in the medium term seems like a feasible solution to me. F35B has unmatching sensor, network and EW capabilities that we may not offer on UAVs until AC is commissioned.

If we base our mid-term needs on F-16 or F110, F404 engines, we might as well get a batch of F-35Bs to reinforce LHD and AC. We don't need a wing for each, but a wing of 8 on LHD and 24 on AC would be sufficient for the long term.

If there are any political disagreements, we will suffer from the F404 / F110 decisions, just as we are suffering from the F-35B. And at least Anka 3/4, KE will serve as a development line for autonomous deployment and operations.

Assuming KAAN's latest block goes into serial production by 2035, with the domestic engine, TAI can start working on single engine stealth and smaller fighter jet capable of operating with drone wingman.

AC construction will begin somewhere between 2025 - 30, and delivery around 2035. By 2030 we have Anadolu, between 30 and 35 we have Anadolu and upgraded Trakya to train with. Possibly only Trakya will be able to support KE / Anka 3/4 after 2030, we need a fighter wing to practice, learn until 2035, even just to train a naval aviation wing.

Well, so far the brain gymnastics is pushing me towards the F-35B too. I simply can't find a good alternative for the post 2035 times.

The current political prospects in terms of the Turkiye-US relations are more positive with Trump. I hope this time Erdogan and Trump get along well, develop a joint action plan for the Middle East that takes Turkiye's national security concerns in account and lets be done with all of the nonsense we saw in the past decade. This will open the doors for the F-35s and not only them, but cooperation on many issues in terms of Turkiye playing a main role in protecting NATO's interest in the region after the US redistribute its forces and decrease the number of US personnel deployed in the Middle East as the conjecture dictates. A better equipped Turkish aircraft carrier will surely be appreciated. We should be able to fill all the voids and be able to contain all the threats both for the interests of Turkiye and NATO. I hope the US side understands how much this could benefit Turkiye, the US and the whole Alliance. We need strategic capabilities if we are to be the "big boy" that we claim we have a right to be in the "new world order".

 

[Zoth]

Well, so far the brain gymnastics is pushing me towards the F-35B too. I simply can't find a good alternative for the post 2035 times.

The current political prospects in terms of the Turkiye-US relations are more positive with Trump. I hope this time Erdogan and Trump get along well, develop a joint action plan for the Middle East that takes Turkiye's national security concerns in account and lets be done with all of the nonsense we saw in the past decade. This will open the doors for the F-35s and not only them, but cooperation on many issues in terms of Turkiye playing a main role in protecting NATO's interest in the region after the US redistribute its forces and decrease the number of US personnel deployed in the Middle East as the conjecture dictates. A better equipped Turkish aircraft carrier will surely be appreciated. We should be able to fill all the voids and be able to contain all the threats both for the interests of Turkiye and NATO. I hope the US side understands how much this could benefit Turkiye, the US and the whole Alliance. We need strategic capabilities if we are to be the "big boy" that we claim we have a right to be in the "new world order".

a US-Turkey cooperation in Middle East would bring peace to the whole region but we must understand something very well, lobbying is a real thing in USA and when it comes to policies, especially for foreign policies, USA decision-making system is very complicated and affected a lot by lobbies. The sad truth is that, we have very influential lobbies who are against us in the USA. Remember how strong our needs were met from 1990s to 2000s when AIPAC supported us, it's the exact opposite now.

We are allies with USA since more than 50 years, and still there is nothing on our side on trying to create a lobbying system for our needs.

 

[boredaf]

Well, so far the brain gymnastics is pushing me towards the F-35B too. I simply can't find a good alternative for the post 2035 times.

The current political prospects in terms of the Turkiye-US relations are more positive with Trump. I hope this time Erdogan and Trump get along well, develop a joint action plan for the Middle East that takes Turkiye's national security concerns in account and lets be done with all of the nonsense we saw in the past decade. This will open the doors for the F-35s and not only them, but cooperation on many issues in terms of Turkiye playing a main role in protecting NATO's interest in the region after the US redistribute its forces and decrease the number of US personnel deployed in the Middle East as the conjecture dictates. A better equipped Turkish aircraft carrier will surely be appreciated. We should be able to fill all the voids and be able to contain all the threats both for the interests of Turkiye and NATO. I hope the US side understands how much this could benefit Turkiye, the US and the whole Alliance. We need strategic capabilities if we are to be the "big boy" that we claim we have a right to be in the "new world order".

Your mistake in this reasoning is thinking Trump cares about NATO, at all. Quite the opposite, he did everything in his power to harm NATO in his first term and will go even further this time. At the end of the day there are only two people Trump is loyal to: Trump and Putin. He doesn't care about Middle East either, in fact, he doesn't give a flying fuck about anything an ordinary politician would. The way to get something from Trump is to verbally buttering him up and lining his pockets. That's it.

 

[Kartal1]

a US-Turkey cooperation in Middle East would bring peace to the whole region but we must understand something very well, lobbying is a real thing in USA and when it comes to policies, especially for foreign policies, USA decision-making system is very complicated and affected a lot by lobbies. The sad truth is that, we have very influential lobbies who are against us in the USA. Remember how strong our needs were met from 1990s to 2000s when AIPAC supported us, it's the exact opposite now.

We are allies with USA since more than 50 years, and still there is nothing on our side on trying to create a lobbying system for our needs.

Your mistake in this reasoning is thinking Trump cares about NATO, at all. Quite the opposite, he did everything in his power to harm NATO in his first term and will go even further this time. At the end of the day there are only two people Trump is loyal to: Trump and Putin. He doesn't care about Middle East either, in fact, he doesn't give a flying fuck about anything an ordinary politician would. The way to get something from Trump is to verbally buttering him up and lining his pockets. That's it.

No one can offer the US what we can. We get weapons they get our enabling role. We are going to pay for these weapons.

One of the main points of Trump's foreign policy is the different approach at the Middle East and Iran. When you talk about the Middle East you can't do anything meaningful without Turkiye as we are an important actor and actually have troops on the ground. Our role is important in the context of Iran, Israel and anything in between.

We also play an important role in Africa and while taking in account the future of the Coalition, it is said that the Coalition will radically drop personnel in the Middle East and will concentrate on IS in Africa. With proper funding and support we can do miracles there. I bet the US and NATO would rather have us as a reliable ally. No one is benefitting from the current situation.

(Quote me here https://defencehub.live/threads/foreign-policy-geopolitics.3951/page-267 as it is getting slightly off topic)

 

[BaburKhan]

Can Turkiye Build an Aircraft Carrier? | TURDEF

The Turkish Aircraft Carrier MUGEM is currently being designed in the Project Design Office.

turdef.com

 

[chngr]

MUGEM should have EMALS

MUGEM bigger than it seems...Landing runway length almost similar as US supercarriers...Maybe it can operate KAAN like big birds with EMALS

Until we can have carrier with EMALS..We should buy F-35B for our LHDs

 

[Ripley]

Until we can have carrier with EMALS..We should buy F-35B for our LHDs

Of course, you mean “if we could only buy F35Bs” because as we all know it simply is beyond our desires due to political tensions and unnamed embargoes

 

[boredaf]

Landing runway length almost similar as US supercarriers.

Both Nimitz and Gerald Ford class carriers are about 50 metres longer than our plans, how are they almost similar?

 

[Zoth]

MUGEM should have EMALS

MUGEM bigger than it seems...Landing runway length almost similar as US supercarriers...Maybe it can operate KAAN like big birds with EMALS

Until we can have carrier with EMALS..We should buy F-35B for our LHDs

Someone with more knowledge should correct me but without a nuclear reactor, providing the energy needed for EMALS is really difficult, not impossible but not efficient at the same time. In a smaller ship you can possibly get an EMALS working with a diesel/gas turbine but what's the point, you can just go with stobar or catobar for a smaller ships that launch small aircraft.

EMALS is designed to launch relatively big jet fighters with close to full load capacity and that requires so much energy surge in a very short span of time, to achieve this with a classic diesel/gas turbine system, you would need so many batteries and generators that it would take so much space and add into weight.
The reason why nuclear is a default for EMALS is not random, best way to provide a lot of energy with relatively small space.

 

[Yasar_TR]

MUGEM should have EMALS

MUGEM bigger than it seems...Landing runway length almost similar as US supercarriers...Maybe it can operate KAAN like big birds with EMALS

Until we can have carrier with EMALS..We should buy F-35B for our LHDs

We all have aspirations for better and more powerful weapons. But there are limits to what we can afford and what we can technically manufacture.
Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launch System is a very expensive system. Even more expensive is to develop it. That is why the French are contemplating purchasing the US system at a price of 1.321 billion dollars. (See below US govt document)

Apart from USA and China no other country have immediate access to this technology. India is working towards attaining it.

Developing it may take longer than we can envisage. Spain, Italy and Thailand use V/STOL planes on their carriers. UK carriers have redundant parallel runway with all catapult system ready to be installed, should the need arise. But in the meantime they operate F35B Vertical take off and landing capable planes. Russians have one STOBAR ski lift carrier that is still not operational. Indians operate STOBAR system on their carriers. Japan has a number of Helicopter Dock Destroyers that will operate F35Bs as well.

Most economical and convenient system, if conventional aircraft’s are to be used, is the STOBAR with a ski lift take off. But it may restrict your operating weight for the planes, to narrow tolerances. EMALS gives you more widespread use; But at a price. And re: @Zoth ’s post, Nuclear power is not a prerequisite. Chinese Navy Ship Fujian is claimed to be able to generate enough energy without the need for nuclear power for it’s EMALS.

France – Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) and Advanced Arresting Gear (AAG) | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil