TR Aircraft Carrier & Amphibious Ship Programs

[KhanOfEurasia]

 

[UkroTurk]

Hürjet_____12 000 kg
Kızılelma___8 500 kg
Anka3______7 000 kg
Akıncı______6 000 kg
TB3________1 450 kg

İf the given numbers are correct, this is very detailed information that I haven't found in internet.
Look at MTOW of Hürjet 12t , Anka 3 7t happens also heavy.

That's why we need manned and unmanned baby Hürjets which empty weight is 2-2,5 t and MTOW maximum 3.5 t.

 

[Zafer]

İf the given numbers are correct, this is very detailed information that I haven't found in internet.
Look at MTOW of Hürjet 12t , Anka 3 happens also heavy.

From the list only Hürjet value is estimated from the Korean FA-50 Fighting Eagle which is 12.215 kg. All other values are official.

EDIT: American Boeing-Saab T-7 Red Hawk plane powered with the same engine weighs 12.125 kg with first flight in 2016.

Hürjet is newer than both Korean and American planes so it should weigh less than the others as it would presumably use lighter materials.

 

[Zafer]

İf the given numbers are correct, this is very detailed information that I haven't found in internet.
Look at MTOW of Hürjet 12t , Anka 3 7t happens also heavy.

That's why we need manned and unmanned baby Hürjets which empty weight is 2-2,5 t and MTOW maximum 3.5 t.

Interestingly no one else recognized that it is a detailed post , you would think there are specialists on the forum.

 

[Yasar_TR]

İf the given numbers are correct, this is very detailed information that I haven't found in internet.
Look at MTOW of Hürjet 12t , Anka 3 7t happens also heavy.

That's why we need manned and unmanned baby Hürjets which empty weight is 2-2,5 t and MTOW maximum 3.5 t.

Bro, then you have not looked at the right places. It is readily available as I have found within few minutes.

Hürjet’s MTOW was never given. As it is essentially a trainer that resembles KAI-T50 it is logical to assume to be similar to that plane’s. But if we are going to tweak this jet and produce an LCA that is going to take off from an AC, then we should be looking at a jet fighter similar to Gripen E. That plane has an MTOW of 16500 kg and an F414 power plant.

KE in its current form with that underpowered Ukrainian engine will be hard pushed to have a maximum 6000 kg. This was the specified MTOW to start with. Later with improved power plant it was suggested to have 8000 kg MTOW. With twin engines over 12000 kg MTOW value was also mentioned.

As current Anka 3 was flying with Ukrainian engine, it’s MTOW was given as 6.5 tons. Then at Tusas site it was revised to 7 ton. Jane’s defence magazine quotes 7 ton too. But with TF6K in place it should surpass this easily. When it is furnished with twin TF6K engines then we will have a real monster deep strike bomber.

Aknci with 2 x 450hp engines was a 4.5-5 ton MTOW UAV. But with 2 x 750 hp engines it became a 6000 kg MTOW uav. With 2 x 900hp PT6 engines and even with 1000hp engines it may even be a 7000kg MTOW UAV if redesigned accordingly.

So it is all relative to how they are evolved and utilised and designed.

 

[Sanchez]

And we have a model now.
Hürjets, KE, TB3 and helicopters. 2x16 VLS, 4 Gökdeniz CIWS.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1848362191809810634

 

[uçuyorum]

Stupid position for the VLS honestly. It should be better isolated from rest of the deck

 

[No Name]

Stupid position for the VLS honestly. It should be better isolated from rest of the deck

It is still better located than the Russian aircraft carrier's VLS.

also does anyone know what other navy has VLS on their aircraft carries other an russia, india and maybe china?

 

[boredaf]

And we have a model now.
Hürjets, KE, TB3 and helicopters. 2x16 VLS, 4 Gökdeniz CIWS.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1848362191809810634

I wholeheartedly hope Hürjet is nothing but a placeholder for a proper Kaan variant (whether smaller one engine version or just navalised as it is) because if it isn't we should just scrap the whole aircraft carrier idea and just built Trakya with more focus on drones.

We are talking about a project that'll be finished in late 2030s or early 2040s here. 5th gen aircraft will be even more numerous at that time and some countries will have possibly started flying 6th gen by that time. God only knows how radar and anti-air systems will improve until then either. And our plan is to put a trainer turned fighter on a carrier at the same time period??? If we truly do this it'll be a waste of resources in an unprecedented scale.

 

[Chocopie]

And we have a model now.
Hürjets, KE, TB3 and helicopters. 2x16 VLS, 4 Gökdeniz CIWS.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1848362191809810634

Aren’t there professional photographers who take better pics or vids? The blue light is also freaking useless and distracting.

 

[boredaf]

I think by that time Türkiye will get F-35. Money rules

Maybe, maybe not but I would much rather we start single engine naval Kaan project after Kaan concludes and goes into full on production in early 2030s. It would be much more preferable if everything on it was ours.

 

[dBSPL]

There are currently 4 platforms in flight prototype status and flight tests are underway. It is quite normal for all of these to be displayed on the ship. The demonstrated air group configuration should be treated as a preliminary idea, without classified works. We have at least 8-10 years ahead of us, in fact, we have at least 10 to 15 years before this ship is fully armed, trained and operationally active sail in the oceans with its armada. As the program becomes more concrete, so will the air group to be developed specifically for the platform.

 

[dBSPL]

The first thing that catches the attention of foreigners in this concept model is a twin-engined and unmanned main combatant jets. There are no active examples in the world's navies, and in the next 20 years, there will be a combat aviation approach that we will rarely see first generation examples in the world's navies. Whether or not we will be able to handle this is a matter for another discussion, but if the topic of discussion is the near future naval aviation trends and fields of work in naval combatant aviation, it is a fact that we are also focusing on this, and that we are even pursuing ambitious work on our own scale. One is an agile-designed interceptor jet, and the other is a flexible platform capable of undertaking a variety of strategic missions, from penetrator bomber to tactical aerial refueling. Both programs will be forked with different variants in the future. There are those who think that Turkiye will fail in this area, and there are those who are in a wait-and-see mode.

On the other side, main focus of our local social media and Turkish defense enthusiasts circles was the Hürjet. Sometimes we get stuck in really narrow preconceptions. I dont know that we think that the navy, which wants to land stealth penetrator bomber aircraft and twin-engined unmanned interceptor jets on the same ship, will be content with the specs of the Hürjet only, even its AJT variant specs. Hürjet may never be the main fighter on this aircraft. Perhaps it will be designed as an air control aircraft for unmanned platforms, we don't know yet. But there are those who think that after the Hürjet Naval adaptation, the Turkish aviation industry and the naval air force will say gentlemen, okay, there is no need for further work, this is enough! My guess is that there is a direct manned combat naval jet work, but it is not yet declassified, and considering the aviation programs, the air force has the highest priority, so they cannot put the concept model on the ship models yet. KE's situation is different. Baykar is already developing platforms directly for the navy. On the TAI side, the KAAN configuration desired by the air force should be revealed first.

Edit: Of course, there is something else. The wingspan of the model shown as the naval variant of the Hürjet is at least 9.5 meters, and perhaps, efforts are being made to increase it to over 10 meters. The F-35B is an aircraft that can fit anywhere the Hurjet can fit, perhaps not in volume or wing area but in width and length.

 

[Sanchez]

Akbaba claims MUGEM will start construction in 2025. Much faster than I anticipated. @Anmdt if navy decides to build it themselves, do they currently have a slipway ready for it in Istanbul or would it be made in a private shipyard, maybe like Sedef again?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854813779667644799

 

[Anmdt]

Akbaba claims MUGEM will start construction in 2025. Much faster than I anticipated. @Anmdt if navy decides to build it themselves, do they currently have a slipway ready for it in Istanbul or would it be made in a private shipyard, maybe like Sedef again?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1854813779667644799

I can call this total BS.

Before the construction starts, since TN wants to build it in Pendik Naval Shipyard (Istanbul Shipyard Command, ITK), the drydock has to be renovated and adapted. But before all, TN's first goal is to start construction of TF-2000, launch it and then take the dry dock and convert it for suitable use, for National AC.

And finally, the design is still in the cradle, neither the design office nor any person in TR currently has the slightest idea about an AC. Yes, a conceptual design can mature within a few months, up to a year, the second stage, which we call necessary, is contract / functional design, will certainly take years. But there is another constraint I mentioned before; TN wants to build it in the Naval Shipyard and there is no dry dock to support it currently, (also mind, you can't just slide an AC down from the slipway, neither the current dimensions of the slipway support it anyway). Yes it seems like the only way to build an AC in a drydock, right away. If i recall correctly TCG Anadolu was build the same way.

Another reason why AC cannot be built in private shipyards is that only Navy (i.e. state) alone can take all financial-technical risks for AC. Nevertheless, ITK will outsource the construction of some blocks similar to the British ACs.

However, this could be TCG Trakya, which will be built in Sedef shipyard. And the construction will start after the launch of the I-class hulls.

Sorry to take away everyone's excitement, but we have other priorities at the moment; Refreshing the aged frigate fleet (with Barbaros MLU, I-class orders, Ada MLU), commissioning of a light OPV class ( for overseas operations like Qatar, Somalia), TF-2000 (as the AAW backbone at sea), MILDEN with a VLS, a functional TCG Trakya with a larger deck to support larger aircraft, and STOBAR (probably) - (to practice and train an air wing before the AC), then comes the National AC as the last stone on top.​

 

[Anmdt]

I can call this total BS.

Before the construction starts, since TN wants to build it in Pendik Naval Shipyard (Istanbul Shipyard Command, ITK), the drydock has to be renovated and adapted. But before all, TN's first goal is to start construction of TF-2000, launch it and then take the dry dock and convert it for suitable use, for National AC.

And finally, the design is still in the cradle, neither the design office nor any person in TR currently has the slightest idea about an AC. Yes, a conceptual design can mature within a few months, up to a year, the second stage, which we call necessary, is contract / functional design, will certainly take years. But there is another constraint I mentioned before; TN wants to build it in the Naval Shipyard and there is no dry dock to support it currently, (also mind, you can't just slide an AC down from the slipway, neither the current dimensions of the slipway support it anyway). Yes it seems like the only way to build an AC in a drydock, right away. If i recall correctly TCG Anadolu was build the same way.

Another reason why AC cannot be built in private shipyards is that only Navy (i.e. state) alone can take all financial-technical risks for AC. Nevertheless, ITK will outsource the construction of some blocks similar to the British ACs.

However, this could be TCG Trakya, which will be built in Sedef shipyard. And the construction will start after the launch of the I-class hulls.

Sorry to take away everyone's excitement, but we have other priorities at the moment; Refreshing the aged frigate fleet (with Barbaros MLU, I-class orders, Ada MLU), commissioning of a light OPV class ( for overseas operations like Qatar, Somalia), TF-2000 (as the AAW backbone at sea), MILDEN with a VLS, a functional TCG Trakya with a larger deck to support larger aircraft, and STOBAR (probably) - (to practice and train an air wing before the AC), then comes the National AC as the last stone on top.​

We can refer to this image easily, first LHD was planned to be commissioned in 2021, however due to the circumstances it was possible in 2023 / 2024. And since the second hull (Trakya) meant to commence around the delivery of the first hull, we can say this list is valid by shift of 5 years.

 

[Ripley]

First i have to see the fixed-wing aircraft and rotary-wing aircraft, to be used on the AC, in serial production.

A bunch of navalized Gökbeys would be great. And an addition couple (hopefully) T925 would mean a lot of overseas independent fleet operations as well (a jet fighter of course is a priority)
We need the last one and we need it bad.
We need that 10 ton heavy duty operator in all our services tbh.

 

[Kartal1]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

 

[boredaf]

I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

I couldn't agree more with your overall point and especially this part. An aircraft carrier is not something you half-arse, you either do it right or it is a complete waste of resources. And it requires an enormous amount of resources. Closest thing to our planned carrier, as far as I can think of, is UK's Queen Elizabeth class, they each cost over 3 billion pounds. And that is without the cost of the aircraft on them or the warships and auxiliaries around them. And without all of their operation costs over time.

It is an incredible amount of money to put down into 1 project and the result of that project, the carrier, is a giant target on the sea so you have to be able to protect it. Royal Navy cannot protect theirs by themselves, that's why are either escorted by other NATO fleets or they sail with ships from Dutch navy. But we might not always have that luxury ourselves, so we cannot rely on that.

If we are not going design and put a 5th gen plane on it, it makes no sense to devote so much time and money into the project, imo. If the drones are supposed to be driving force behind the carrier, then we don't need it. For that money we can make Trakya and 2 more like it but with more focus on drones and possibly USVs (and if it is possible make changes to Anadolu as well) and keep building our surface fleets around them.

But if we are going to plow through with this aircraft carrier idea then we better do it properly. After Kaan's design process is done, teams that worked on it should immediately start on a navalised version for the carrier, whether as it is right now or a smaller version using 1 TF35K. Hürjet will require modifications as well after all, we'd be better off modifying Kaan.

 

[Zoth]

My biggest concern is how are we going to fix the jet fighter problem. I mean it is good and all to be able to project force, but the real force projection of an AC comes from the fighters on board. If we are not going to equip it with a 5th Gen fighter or a drone fleet capable on taking on at least 4th Gen+ fighters it is not a good investment when we take in account what year the AC will be operable and the overall common points in the operational environment in the future.

When Altay tank project was started we relied on a German made MTU engine and the project turned into a fiasco. When we designed TCG Anadolu it was meant to carry a good number of F-35Bs and we didn't received them. Thanks God the design of TCG Anadolu is multifunctional enough so we can use it in other roles effectively enough. The difference here is that such a project (AC) is not a tank or an LHD project. The money and the resources that will go for this project if utilized in other R&D activities and acquisitions can make a serious difference for the Navy or even other branches of the Armed Forces.

I hope that the decision makers took the risks in account so we don't need to turn the AC into a humanitarian help ship, LHD or Bayraktar/Anka carrier. I really want to know on what are we going to rely this time and what is the plan and let me make it clear. I am not satisfied with HURJET and the currently rumored iterations of Kizilelma and Anka... If we are going to make an AC, then we better make it good.

Even if we had a navalized version of Kaan TODAY, it wouldn't be able to take off from that AC, we need a Nuclear one so we can utilize CATOBAR and EMALS.

What i do personally think is that, we are going to build that first MUGEM only and only to start learning about ACs and later on make a proper one that has CATOBAR / EMALS.

Is that a good approach? I have no idea.

The 2nd possibility which has like 1% possibility to happen, is that they are aiming to fix relations with USA and acquire some F35Bs, then the whole situation would change.