TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Sanchez]

New update on the Meteor sale during the weekly press briefing:

"MSB Sources: "We are planning to add Meteor missiles to our inventory as part of the Eurofighter Typhoon procurement project. Our priority is domestic and national weapons and systems. In this context, we are planning to strengthen our Air Force with the GÖKHAN air-to-air missile, which is equivalent to the Meteor missile we are developing. Until the GÖKHAN missile enters the inventory, the procurement of the Meteor missile continues smoothly together with the Eurofighter aircraft."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1889963221962072378

 

[Fatman17]

142 Filo "Gazelle (Ceylan)" (TuAF)

Source: F-16.net

 

[Sanchez]

Per MoD Güler's latest words last week, 2 RAF Typhoons will visit Turkey on Dec 18, after joining a joint exercise in Qatar and land directly at Mürted/Akıncı.

İki Eurofighter 18 Aralık’ta Ankara’ya geliyor – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

Reading into this a bit more, I'm puzzled and this visit might be a little more unusual than the rest.

Firstly, 2 aircraft are I believe 2 RAF Typhoons from the joint RAF/Qatari joint squadron No. 12, which was reformed to train Qatari pilots and crews after their purchase in the past. I think it has deployed to Qatar at no less than 3 times since it was reformed in 2018.

Piece also adds that these aircraft will be returning from Qatar after joining the Qatari/European joint exercise "Ferocious Falcon V", which Turkey also joined. But this exercise was in 2023, not 2024. Hence my thinking these aircraft were not just there for the exercise but deployed there temporarily as part of No. 12 squadron.

2 aircraft are FGR4s per Özbek. While complicated, a FGR.Mk4 is basically a single seater Block 5 EF2000 built under Tranche 1 updated with multi-role capabilities for ground strike and recce roles unlike earlier blocks.

FGR4s are the most capable of the RAF Tranche 1s but they are also to be retired in the following few years.

Per the piece, 2 aircraft will directly come to Mürted base, to home of TAI and not Eskişehir and Konya, which are the more popular airbases for joint exercises.

I think either we might see an update on the previously dispelled claim of HvKK buying ex-RAF Typhoons, or this might be the first of many visits to start a joint RAF/TurAF squadron to train Turkish pilots and crews like how RAF did with Qataris and how we recently did with Qataris in Qatar. Or maybe even both...

Thought it was interesting.

HvKK chief visited the 12 joint RAF/Qatari squadron as RAF chief's guest. (aircraft shown here however is from the 11 Squadron from the same base). I think they are actively studying creating a joint Turkish/RAF squadron for training. as we previously discussed.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1892882228771725313

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1893216202601689369

 

[Sanchez]

"The Turkish Air Force, which is closely interested in the C-130J Super Hercules Transport Aircraft, which will be decommissioned by the British Royal Air Force in 2023 in order to support the C-130BM/EM Fleet, sent a delegation to the UK to inspect the aircraft and held preliminary discussions on cooperation within the scope of the project. In the first phase

Per Özbek, HvKK and RAF chiefs also discussed the sale of ex-RAF C-130Js. Either the scope of the deal is lowered from 10-12 to 5 or this is just the first phase. So this is still not a done deal.

"The Turkish Air Force will continue its journey with 5 C-130JC4s to be purchased from England in the short term to meet its increasing military transport aircraft needs. The final details were discussed during the visit of Air Forces Commander General Cemal Ziya Kadıoğlu to England."

"One of the countries that showed interest in the aircraft was Turkey. The Turkish Air Force had started looking for alternatives after the C-160s were removed from the inventory (there is still only one active aircraft), the operational efficiency of the 13 C-130Es and 6 C-130Bs in hand was low despite their modernization, and the entire burden fell on the 10 Airbus A400Ms in the inventory. The purchase of additional A400Ms from Airbus was also on the agenda among the plans."

Türkiye İngiltere’den 5 adet C-130J alacak – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

 

[Khagan1923]

Per Özbek, HvKK and RAF chiefs also discussed the sale of ex-RAF C-130Js. Either the scope of the deal is lowered from 10-12 to 5 or this is just the first phase. So this is still not a done deal.

"The Turkish Air Force will continue its journey with 5 C-130JC4s to be purchased from England in the short term to meet its increasing military transport aircraft needs. The final details were discussed during the visit of Air Forces Commander General Cemal Ziya Kadıoğlu to England."

"One of the countries that showed interest in the aircraft was Turkey. The Turkish Air Force had started looking for alternatives after the C-160s were removed from the inventory (there is still only one active aircraft), the operational efficiency of the 13 C-130Es and 6 C-130Bs in hand was low despite their modernization, and the entire burden fell on the 10 Airbus A400Ms in the inventory. The purchase of additional A400Ms from Airbus was also on the agenda among the plans."

Türkiye İngiltere’den 5 adet C-130J alacak – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

The 10 A400M deal also went nowhere. Pretty much ignoring the logistic fleet for a Armed Forces that has been expending its presence over the last 10 years immensely.
Let's see when everything will start breaking down, even the "newer" A400M had to undergo overhauls because they have been getting used non-stop since being inducted.

Of all the major Armed Forces in Europe we have a pathetic logistic fleet in comparison. Even Germany has a greater one.

Just as comparison so people understand how bad the situation actually is.

Germany:

A400M: 48+5 on order
C-130J: 3 (joined unit with the French)


France:

A400M: 24+26 on order
C-130J: 2
C-130: 14 (most likely to be replaced by indigenous french project or C-390)
A330 MRTT: 12+3 on order


let's what the Turkish Air Force has to deal with, yes?

Türkiye:

A400M: 10 (still no further orders and the ones purchased are already undergoing or have undergone an overhaul due to the amount of hours they have put in with their limited numbers)
C-130: 13 E + 6B (all of them nearing retirement)
C-130J: 5 from UK (down from original 12 planes)

that's is it

you can also count the 7 KC-135R but those are mainly for tanker tasks due to their age.

Brazil offered us co-development of the C-390 we said no, Ukraine offered us to co-develop the AN-188 we said no, we never ordered any C-17 even when there was a chance before they shut down the production line, we aren't ordering any new A400M even though we need at least another 20-30, we aren't ordering any new C-130J, any C-390 and now we cut down the amount of used C-130J we were gonna purchase from the UK.

Like what is the plan here? Wait and see how long the logistic fleet can take the abuse?

 

[Ripley]

The 10 A400M deal also went nowhere. Pretty much ignoring the logistic fleet for a Armed Forces that has been expending its presence over the last 10 years immensely.
Let's see when everything will start breaking down, even the "newer" A400M had to undergo overhauls because they have been getting used non-stop since being inducted.

Of all the major Armed Forces in Europe we have a pathetic logistic fleet in comparison. Even Germany has a greater one.

Just as comparison so people understand how bad the situation actually is.

Germany:

A400M: 48+5 on order
C-130J: 3 (joined unit with the French)


France:

A400M: 24+26 on order
C-130J: 2
C-130: 14 (most likely to be replaced by indigenous french project or C-390)
A330 MRTT: 12+3 on order


let's what the Turkish Air Force has to deal with, yes?

Türkiye:

A400M: 10 (still no further orders and the ones purchased are already undergoing or have undergone an overhaul due to the amount of hours they have put in with their limited numbers)
C-130: 13 E + 6B (all of them nearing retirement)
C-130J: 5 from UK (down from original 12 planes)

that's is it

you can also count the 7 KC-135R but those are mainly for tanker tasks due to their age.

Brazil offered us co-development of the C-390 we said no, Ukraine offered us to co-develop the AN-188 we said no, we never ordered any C-17 even when there was a chance before they shut down the production line, we aren't ordering any new A400M even though we need at least another 20-30, we aren't ordering any new C-130J, any C-390 and now we cut down the amount of used C-130J we were gonna purchase from the UK.

Like what is the plan here? Wait and see how long the logistic fleet can take the abuse?

Please don’t get me started bro. I can rant for pages. Just wanna add your analysis heavy transport helis. All our branches severely lack of heavy transport helis as well. And just found out recently that they’re sizing T925 down to Black Hawk size from a 11 tons MTOW monster.

 

[Khagan1923]

Please don’t get me started bro. I can rant for pages. Just wanna add your analysis heavy transport helis. All our branches severely lack of heavy transport helis as well. And just found out recently that they’re sizing T925 down to Black Hawk size from a 11 tons MTOW monster.

I was gonna get into that one too but didn't want to bloat. We need way more CH-47 and especially for the navy we need CH-53.
Guess the Armed Forces needs to learn it the hard way to prioritize logistics over all branches.

 

[UkroTurk]

The Eurofighter Tranche 1 is an absolute dead end, you can upgrade it in certain points, e.g. mission computer, maybe also modern EW and new cockpit displays etc. but all this is cosmetic.
It will never get an AESA radar, it will never have air-to-ground capabilities.

Do we really have to get European original upgrade package? Would it be impossible for ASELSAN to upgrade T1s with Turkish AESA?

On the other hand, look at the numbers of underwing pods. ASELSAN could create forward looking AESA pods for EF. Sacrificing two pods under each wing for AESA , future Turkish EFs could use even domestic S2 a missiles.

 

[Saithan]

I've said it before, but our government isn't trustworthy. They're doing all of this to keep our armed forces weak enough, but not too weak. They're pretty much reducing our armed forces to only be able to do COIN.

The government wants to stay in power longer time, and keeping the armed forces divided and only able to do COIN is one of their goals.

I believe that is also why we're seeing all the crap going on in the country with people being thrown in jail for speaking their minds.

Big turkish companies moving HQ to outside of Turkey is another proof of their distrust to the government and their "empowered" caretaker laws.

 

[Sanchez]

Just as comparison so people understand how bad the situation actually is.

While I mainly agree with your point, this list is not exhaustive. HvKK still also operates some 40 CN235s in utility roles. These aircraft are used for any and all kinds of missions. Germany and France now lack a similar smaller cargo aircraft in their inventory after C-160 was retired and have to use their larger aircraft for all utility missions to move cargo between bases and to also move cargo to other countries. While the cargo fleet must grow in numbers, it's not AS bad as it seems.

But I do agree that we need to buy more larger aircraft and I am also of the opinion that a private shell company must be created to buy and use IL-76s like many neighbors do. It can be operated from unpaved runways like the C-17. Our future operations in the African continent would see benefits from such an arrangement, it would also create more plausible deniability.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I don't believe that any previous government has done as much for armaments projects and arming its armed forces as this one. Anyone who claims or thinks otherwise is only lying to themselves.
Secondly, and this is not a random phenomenon, the better the armed forces become, the more specialized they become. In most cases, transformations occur where the armed forces end up being up to 10% smaller, in principle the unqualified soldiers are weeded out. In addition, Turkey has enough soldiers in the reserve and a specialized mercenary army like SADAT, an army that is capable of acting abroad without being held accountable as a country. This is what the Americans, Russians, French, Iran, Israel etc. have been doing for decades in combination with their foreign intelligence services.
Thirdly, they have destroyed an ancient system that ran strictly according to the motto "peace at home, peace in the world".
This system does not work in the 21st century you have to expand economically, politically with hard & software power. The old system of only dealing with your own problems and things in the country and being completely subordinate to NATO hierarchy is over and that is a very good thing. We have seen that this system was total garbage, the rivals have expanded and actively and passively promoted networks such as ISIS, PKK/YPG & Co and always put Turkey under pressure and destabilized it for decades in several coups.

Let's move on to Eurofighter Tranche 1 - there is no point in investing in a platform where the supply of spare parts is virtually non-existent, only to have to replace it in 5-6 years. Until all these pods are optimized by ASELSAN and work satisfactorily with the interfaces of the Eurofighter and call up their performance, it may take several years of tests to validate these systems. The same applies to an Özgür II-like upgrade path where almost everything is replaced and improved with Turkish systems for 20 Eurofighter Tranche 1 aircraft, which would be a waste of money and resources.
Then you can just buy a new aircraft and wait 2-3 years with the same result.

Again, nobody is going to attack Turkey in the next 5-10 years, it is neither an Iraq nor a Syria or Iran that would make it an easy target.
That they would need fighter planes immediately in 2-3 years. The Özgür II upgrade plan to all F-16 blocks with drones will last until 2028/29 and then the first TAI KAAN, Anka 3 and Kizilelma and Eurofighter Tranche 4 will arrive.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Do we really have to get European original upgrade package? Would it be impossible for ASELSAN to upgrade T1s with Turkish AESA?

View attachment 73819
View attachment 73820
On the other hand, look at the numbers of underwing pods. ASELSAN could create forward looking AESA pods for EF. Sacrificing two pods under each wing for AESA , future Turkish EFs could use even domestic S2 a missiles.

impossible!!!


In Tranche 1 machines, all microprocessors are of the Motorola 68020 type, which is called a General Purpose Processor (GPP). In these LRU computers, the application software can only work with this one specific hardware of the respective mission computer, which can make changes difficult or impossible.

Tranche 1 aircraft, on the other hand, can and will only be improved to a limited extent through software updates (drops). A solution to the Tranche 1 obsolescence problem is currently not in sight.

In short, if you have Tranche 1, then you have a problem!!! a big problem!!!

Bringing a Tranche 1 to a Tranche 2 means rebuilding the aircraft completely.

In contrast to the F-22 and Rafale F2/3, the Eurofighter does not yet use integrated modular avionics (IMA). While in both cases all sensor data is fed into a central data processing system, in the Typhoon the sensor data is processed by several subsystems in order to be combined to form an overall tactical picture of the situation. The avionics consists of several computers that are linked via fiber optic cables according to STANAG 3910 and can transmit up to 1,000 Mbit/s. Individual systems also represent "islands" in the avionics and are only connected to the fiber optic network via another computer. The subsystems of the Praetorian system, the friend-or-foe query systems, the basic aircraft systems, the weapons control system and the cockpit subsystems are linked via MIL-STD-1553 data buses, which are designed for a lower data throughput of 100 Mbit/s. In addition to the local air cooling of individual components, the waste heat from the avionics and the anti-G suit is transferred via liquid cooling circuits to the fuel, which serves as a heat sink. The entire software of the Eurofighter is written in Ada. At the time of project development, the Eurofighter was the largest Ada software project in Europe.

For Tranche 2 aircraft, the avionics were completely overhauled according to ASAAC, i.e. a strict separation of a function in hardware and software. EADS began developing IMA on a COTS basis according to the ASAAC standard for aircraft such as the Eurofighter before 2001.
The core element of this Universal Aircraft Computer (UAC) was the separation between hardware, hardware abstraction layer (HAL), operating system and application software (apps). In contrast to the Rafale, which switched directly to IMA for F2, the original avionics architecture was retained for the Eurofighter's Tranche 2 to reduce risk, but the computing modules were standardized and a uniform real-time operating system (OS) was chosen for all mission computers with Integrity-178B. Hardware, HAL and OS are the same for all LRIs, only the apps differ depending on the mission computer's area of application. For communication between the computers, each LRI has a Common EFEX Module (CEM), which serves as an intermediary between the ASAAC standard and real Eurofighter technology. ASAAC works with packet switching, whereas EFEX uses a predefined transmission table. The Eurofighter's apps/mission computers communicate with a type of mailbox system and store the mail in the target computer, while the information is sent to ASAAC via virtual channels. Furthermore, each LRI has three Common Processing Modules (CPM) which run the application software on the OS. All four modules of the LRI are connected via a VMEbus backplane. The LRIs are supplied by Rockwell Collins, for example, correspond to the 1/2 ATR standard, are air-cooled, have six slots and can provide up to 250 W. The three processor cards have dual/quad-core processors and PCI mezzanine cards with mass storage. If the VMEBus or EFEX is not sufficient, 10 GEth lines can be connected. IPA6 and IPA7 were used for the flight tests of the new avionics, which were required for international approval.

The Tranche 1 machines are limited in terms of software due to their limited computing power: for example, during a bombing mission it is possible to locate an air target using ESM/ECM and shoot at it using AMRAAM, but then it is no longer possible to switch to air-to-ground mode. This was only remedied in Tranche 2 by increasing computing power.

 

[OPTIMUS]

My personal opinion:

If I were to see Tranche 1 aircraft in the Turkish Air Force at some point, it would be the second Casa Olayi for me (see CASA OLAYI by Nezih Tavlas -1990). And many generals and politicians would have filled their pockets again!!!!

 

[IC3M@N FX]

TUSAŞ’tan Süper Şimşek Açıklaması: F-16 Sanacaklar | SavunmaSanayiST

Şimşek ve Süper Şimşek gibi insansız hava araçları ile TUSAŞ, farklı ihtiyaçlara cevap vermeyi hedefliyor. Mehmet Demiroğlu, bu İHA’ların geleceğine değindi.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Super Lightning Statement from TAI: They'll think it's an F-16
Başak Berber23 February 2025 1 minute reading time

Mehmet Demiroğlu, General Manager of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), made important statements to SavunmaSanayiST at the IDEX Fair in Abu Dhabi.

Demiroğlu shared the latest developments regarding TAI's unmanned aerial platforms, and detailed the future of unmanned aerial vehicles such as the Şimşek and Super Şimşek.

Development of Şimşek and Super Şimşek
Demiroğlu emphasized that Şimşek is usually used as a target aircraft, but now it can also serve as a kamikaze drone. Demiroğlu said, "As you know, Şimşek has been in use for years. It is usually used as a target aircraft, but we have also turned it into a kamikaze drone."

Stating that Super Simsek is an important development in terms of speed and carrying capacity, Demiroğlu said, "Our next product is Super Simsek. It is a platform that can reach up to 0.85 macha in terms of speed and can reach over 50 kilograms in terms of explosives and payload."

Stating that Super Simsek can be used in different configurations, Demiroğlu said, "We can use it in different configurations from ANKA, AKSUNGUR and ANKA-3, both kamikaze, decoy, seeker warheads or electronic warfare. We are also producing this configuration, and we have started its tests."

Future Swarm UAVs

In addition to the Super Lightning and Lightning, TAI is also working on swarm UAV technology. Demiroğlu stated that such platforms will play an important role in battlefields. Demiroğlu said, "At the same time, we will also be making their swarm UAVs. We are also continuing our work on this subject."

Pointing out that asymmetric warfare is being used more and more, Demiroğlu said, "Now, battlefields are working with asymmetric platforms or ammunition or systems. We see them being used a lot. Şimşek and Super Şimşek will close a gap, a serious gap in this regard."

Super Lightning and Air Defense Strategy
Demiroğlu also made statements about how Super Lightning can be used against air defense systems. "A Super Lightning can make itself look like an F-16, F-35 or KAAN," Demiroğlu said, adding that radars will see the Super Lightning as a real aircraft, which means that air defense systems will be turned on and other kamikaze drones will carry out targeted attacks. "When the radars see it like that, they will turn on the air defense systems. The kamikaze drones in the other group will destroy them with their seeker heads."

Demiroğlu emphasized that they plan to neutralize air defense systems with this strategy:

"One of the missions of ANKA-3 or unmanned aerial vehicles is to open corridors and neutralize air defense systems. We plan to do this with Super Lightning and other platforms."

I find this in combination with Anka 3, ballistic missiles and long-range Cruise Missiles SOM Series e.g. very effective for deep strike missions to overload an enemy's very modern air defense in Greece or in Middle East.
If you improve the RCS even further and coat them with RAM, they could cause chaos.

 

[UkroTurk]

Regarding upgrade of EF T1 , i would say challenges are big but not impossible.

 

[Zoth]

Regarding upgrading the Eurofighters with our own AESA radar, which AESA radar? Murad will enter into mass production around early 2026 and that's at best case scenario where there are no delays. How many of those we can build in a year, which planes are going to be utilized first, Kizilelma, Hurjet, Kaan, Ozgur 2 modernization, or Eurofighters and maybe Anka 3?

I'm sorry but we don't have this mass scale of production capability yet, it's much better to get those EFs as T4 or T5 and have a finished system that works, we already have so many projects that requires our own avionics which are not ready.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Regarding upgrade of EF T1 , i would say challenges are big but not impossible.

Due to the upgrade from Tranche 1 to Trannche 2 of the Spanish Air Force, Spain could not pay for completed 14 new Eurofighters and the new ones had to be stored until Spain paid the money for 14 new EF2000s.

Gentlemen, when we talk about upgrading from T1 to T2, we must have money and a lot of money and time. We have too little of both.

EF2000 is itself a very expensive aircraft with all the trimmings. Then also upgrade from T1..... have fun. Then no one should complain why Turkish soldier looks poor.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Regarding upgrade of EF T1 , i would say challenges are big but not impossible.

Bro, why do you think UK have decided to decommission them all?
The cost of upgrading them to T2/T3 has been deemed economically unviable. Structurally they need extensive upgrades too. Not just computers and avionics.

Spanish may have spent close to 30 million for their initial T1 upgrade to T2 with some specific T3 hardware included.

For the meteor missile to be employed by the aircraft, the Typhoons had to receive the P2Eb software upgrade (Phase 2 Enhancements B) This can be done on T2 aircraft.

quote:

The British MOD also states that the decision to withdraw the Tranche 1 fleet is because its software cannot be updated to Tranche 3-standard in the same way the Tranche 2s can. Due to this, the remaining Tranche 1s have been left out of type-specific upgrades and are not able to employ the full range of weapons that the Tranche 2/3s can – such as MBDA’s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

unquote.

 

[UkroTurk]

Bro, why do you think UK have decided to decommission them all?
The cost of upgrading them to T2/T3 has been deemed economically unviable. Structurally they need extensive upgrades too. Not just computers and avionics.

Spanish may have spent close to 30 million for their initial T1 upgrade to T2 with some specific T3 hardware included.

For the meteor missile to be employed by the aircraft, the Typhoons had to receive the P2Eb software upgrade (Phase 2 Enhancements B) This can be done on T2 aircraft.

The British MOD also states that the decision to withdraw the Tranche 1 fleet is because its software cannot be updated to Tranche 3-standard in the same way the Tranche 2s can. Due to this, the remaining Tranche 1s have been left out of type-specific upgrades and are not able to employ the full range of weapons that the Tranche 2/3s can – such as MBDA’s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

Yeah you're right. Upgrade needs hefty money. But Other countries have other more reasonable alternatives on the table despite spending on upgrade. Apart from Meteor as an aircraft EF is good. As i said challenges are big but not impossible. I believe in ASELSAN capabilities. Our engineers could turn all software Hardware shits domestical sas if they were made in Türkiye.

On the other hand scrutinizing all details of EF will add great experience to TAI. İt is worth to purchase.

BTW i saw our CASAs over Egean coast flying like fighters. Please do not shit on CASAs they are really manevour planes.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Due to the upgrade from Tranche 1 to Trannche 2 of the Spanish Air Force, Spain could not pay for completed 14 new Eurofighters and the new ones had to be stored until Spain paid the money for 14 new EF2000s.

Gentlemen, when we talk about upgrading from T1 to T2, we must have money and a lot of money and time. We have too little of both.

EF2000 is itself a very expensive aircraft with all the trimmings. Then also upgrade from T1..... have fun. Then no one should complain why Turkish soldier looks poor.

Do you know what has been modernized at Spanish EF2000 : not much. Nevertheless, Spain has run out of money :

Upgrage included the following:

* one computer symbol generator,
* a digital video and voice recorder,
* a laser designator POD and
* a control panel for maintenance.

A total of 15 Spanish Eurofighters of Tranche 1 will be upgraded!!!!