TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Saithan]

People should stop being dumb and their rage sabotage ourselves

 

[Yasar_TR]

Apparently Turkey is in a driving position about the deal over the purchase of the Typhoons. According to the below site :

Meanwhile, it has recently been reported that the Typhoon factory in Warton, England, is mostly idle, with no Typhoons being produced - it is not clear if this means the Typhoon could be delivered faster than other comparable fighter jets.

What To Know About Turkey's Eurofighter Typhoon Acquisition

If Germany removes its objections, Turkey is planning to purchase 40 Eurofighter Typhoons.

simpleflying.com

Regarding the Spanish newspaper article here is the translation of it:

Turkey is pushing ahead with modernising its air force by acquiring Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets and Meteor air-to-air missiles, which has sparked tensions with Greece. Ankara plans to acquire 40 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in two phases: a first delivery of 20 aircraft from the UK and then 20 new-build aircraft. The first deliveries are expected to begin in 2026 and full operational capability is expected to be achieved by 2030. Eurofighter Typhoons are fourth-generation supersonic aircraft, built by a European consortium including Germany, the UK, Italy and Spain.

These aircraft will be equipped with Meteor air-to-air missiles, considered among the most advanced in the world, Army Recogtinion reports. The Meteor missile, developed by MBDA, has a range of over 100 kilometers and uses a "ramjet" engine that allows it to maintain its speed over long distances.The missile features an active radar guidance system that allows it to be guided even if the target performs evasive maneuvers. It can attack targets outside visual range, allowing the launching aircraft to stay at a safe distance. In addition, the Meteor missile can attack multiple targets simultaneously . The inclusion of Meteor missiles in the sale to Turkey was approved by France, and the United Kingdom also lobbied for its approval.

There is nothing that says it is second hand. Wording of the two batches to be delivered sounds a bit suspicious. But it could well be that the Spanish newspaper has got something wrong.

I can’t believe that after our defence minister reiterated many times that we are buying brand new planes, we would go and buy second hand ones.

As mentioned by @Sanchez , it could well be that a number of training aircrafts could be received in early under lease until proper deliveries start.

El “mejor” misil aire-aire del mundo para los cazas Eurofighter turcos alarma a Grecia

Estarán equipados con misiles aire-aire Meteor, que puede atacar múltiples blancos simultáneamente

www.larazon.es

 

[Ahlatshah]

I just wonder, is there a possibility we get those T1s with "naked", like Israelis got theirs F16s from Americans? I am not talking about avionics obviously but if we get the source codes or just have permission to integrate our missiles to T1s, may be our radar, it would be an excellent thing.

Is that even doable? @Yasar_TR @Sanchez

 

[Fuzuli NL]

I can’t believe that after our defence minister reiterated many times that we are buying brand new planes, we would go and buy second hand ones.

Could be due to delivery time and urgency that made them change their stance.

 

[Ripley]

Apparently Turkey is in a driving position about the deal over the purchase of the Typhoons. According to the below site :

Meanwhile, it has recently been reported that the Typhoon factory in Warton, England, is mostly idle, with no Typhoons being produced - it is not clear if this means the Typhoon could be delivered faster than other comparable fighter jets.

What To Know About Turkey's Eurofighter Typhoon Acquisition

If Germany removes its objections, Turkey is planning to purchase 40 Eurofighter Typhoons.

simpleflying.com

Regarding the Spanish newspaper article here is the translation of it:

Turkey is pushing ahead with modernising its air force by acquiring Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets and Meteor air-to-air missiles, which has sparked tensions with Greece. Ankara plans to acquire 40 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in two phases: a first delivery of 20 aircraft from the UK and then 20 new-build aircraft. The first deliveries are expected to begin in 2026 and full operational capability is expected to be achieved by 2030. Eurofighter Typhoons are fourth-generation supersonic aircraft, built by a European consortium including Germany, the UK, Italy and Spain.
https://www.larazon.es/internaciona...za-iran_2025020467a26fb5797cbb00014122e9.html
These aircraft will be equipped with Meteor air-to-air missiles, considered among the most advanced in the world, Army Recogtinion reports. The Meteor missile, developed by MBDA, has a range of over 100 kilometers and uses a "ramjet" engine that allows it to maintain its speed over long distances.The missile features an active radar guidance system that allows it to be guided even if the target performs evasive maneuvers. It can attack targets outside visual range, allowing the launching aircraft to stay at a safe distance. In addition, the Meteor missile can attack multiple targets simultaneously . The inclusion of Meteor missiles in the sale to Turkey was approved by France, and the United Kingdom also lobbied for its approval.

There is nothing that says it is second hand. Wording of the two batches to be delivered sounds a bit suspicious. But it could well be that the Spanish newspaper has got something wrong.

I can’t believe that after our defence minister reiterated many times that we are buying brand new planes, we would go and buy second hand ones.

As mentioned by @Sanchez , it could well be that a number of training aircrafts could be received in early under lease until proper deliveries start.

El “mejor” misil aire-aire del mundo para los cazas Eurofighter turcos alarma a Grecia

Estarán equipados con misiles aire-aire Meteor, que puede atacar múltiples blancos simultáneamente

www.larazon.es

Abi your conclusion that it does not say anything regarding second hand/used is correct.

Yet, from the context, to conclude that first phase of twenty to be “delivered“ would’ve only been acquired from RAF inventory, has some legitimacy because the next batch of twenty described as the new build. As you pointed, if the UK plant is literally dead, then logically getting from RAF inventory is the only UK option.

At any rate though, not a very decent body of news piece altogether. It‘s rather vague in general. Like you said, must be something about the translation

 

[Yasar_TR]

Abi your conclusion that it does not say anything regarding second hand/used is correct.

Yet, from the context, to conclude that first phase of twenty to be “delivered“ would’ve only been acquired from RAF inventory, has some legitimacy because the next batch of twenty described as the new build. As you pointed, if the UK plant is literally dead, then logically getting from RAF inventory is the only UK option.

At any rate though, not a very decent body of news piece altogether. It‘s rather vague in general. Like you said, must be something about the translation

As far as I remember from what UK Unions and press were saying, the factory has got 2 to 3 planes to build before the end of this year when they have no more work in hand. So they need more work to keep the workforce available for tempest. They need work to keep them going until 2030 at least.
Also the UK government is under great pressure by the unions and public to give orders to the factory for new Typhoons. So they can easily part with working T2 planes updated to Meteor capability. Because only the later versions of T2 planes are Meteor capable.

As it stands :

According to the provided figures, the RAF’s Typhoon fleet comprises a total of 137 aircraft, distributed as follows:

• Tranche 1 variants make up 22% of the fleet, totaling 30 aircraft.
• Tranche 2 variants, the largest group, consist of 67 aircraft, representing 49% of the total fleet.
• Tranche 3 variants account for 29% of the fleet, with 40 aircraft.

25 units of the first 30 T1 aircraft, will be scrapped by this March as BAE’s proposed upgrade of them to T2 or T3, have been rejected by the government due to financial constraints.

Also as stated at the end of the second file below :

The MOD also states that the decision to withdraw the Tranche 1 fleet is because its software cannot be updated to Tranche 3-standard in the same way the Tranche 2s can. Due to this, the remaining Tranche 1s have been left out of type-specific upgrades and are not able to employ the full range of weapons that the Tranche 2/3s can – such as MBDA’s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

Therefore if we are to receive used Typhoons with Meteor missiles, they have to be at least T2. T2s can also be upgraded to T3 to receive Aesa radars.

How BAE plans to keep its Eurofighter Typhoon UK final assembly line alive for GCAP - Breaking Defense

The last two Typhoons on order at the Warton facility are set to be delivered in 2025, meaning BAE needs to find more export customers to keep fresh a workforce it is counting on to make the sixth-gen GCAP fighter in the future.

breakingdefense.com

BAE Systems: RAF’s Tranche 1 Typhoons could be upgraded and

BAE Systems has told MPs that the RAF’s ageing fleet of Tranche 1 Typhoon FGR4s – which is slated to be phased out of UK military service in 2025 – could be upgraded and retained for operational use

www.key.aero

 

[Saithan]

Let's see I am still cautious about the content of the deal. But if we can avoid the T1 and point and pick T2 then that is fine. As long as it's clear we're not getting T1 that has been upgraded to T2.

Maybe that is what we will get, we pay for upgrading T1 to T2 and get those....

 

[Sanchez]

I just wonder, is there a possibility we get those T1s with "naked", like Israelis got theirs F16s from Americans? I am not talking about avionics obviously but if we get the source codes or just have permission to integrate our missiles to T1s, may be our radar, it would be an excellent thing.

Is that even doable? @Yasar_TR @Sanchez

Israelis didn't get any "naked" F-16s. Many if not most of the subsystems on Israeli F-16s, even in F-16I Sufa are American. Some were jointly developed with Israeli companies for Israeli needs, like the CFTs for example, some were put in by Israelis while being built. Israeli Sufas and modernized F-16C/Ds use Israeli electronic warfare systems designed for Israeli needs, but they are very similar to the original American one in most aspects.

We can get British T1s as they are and in time can work on them according to our specifications. It's not clear how much of the aircraft's systems would be open to our tinkering. Typhoon's architecture is different than the aircraft we know and love. As it's owned wholly by 4 countries at the same time, it is said that integrating separate munitions to it is easier and I believe it can be done by the respective countries themselves. But this wasn't ever tested with other customers save for the owners of the program.

Same architecture with it also brings other complexities we would need to go through however. Typhoon is basically alien to us and our companies. Everything on it is different than the F-4s and F-16s we know very closely. I think a full on program like Özgür for the F-16s for the Typhoons would simply take too much time, everything possibly needs to change. It's not even clear if our subsystems(radar, EW, mission computers) can be integrated into the airframe without major structural changes as well, I don't think anyone save for the higher ups in the procurement project know the details of this for now. And whether it would be cost effective to undertake such a large modernization program is another issue. Everything is mathematically possible, but whether it is feasible is another question. And whether consortium owners need to give their okay politically to it is another question. There is no FMS here, T1s are British property. But IP rights still fall to consortium owners. We simply don't know and are not privy to the exact details of ownership of rights of the aircraft. Many of the subsystems for example are made by German companies and are subject to German IP laws.

At this stage, we don't know what is the specifics of the deal are, whether T1s are actually part of a deal, whether T1s will be "rented" for training purposes, whether HvKK plans to incur T1s into service for combat roles, whether they think a modernization is required. We don't know anything. So we should ease on the speculation while still exploring the possibilities. Nothing is clear yet.

Let's see I am still cautious about the content of the deal. But if we can avoid the T1 and point and pick T2 then that is fine. As long as it's clear we're not getting T1 that has been upgraded to T2.

I don't think British T2s are for sale under their own considerations. If there is a deal that can be made here, that's another issue. But currently there are no T2 upgraded T1s in the world. If we go that route, our ex-RAF T1s would be the first in the world. This is another venue that could possibly ve explored. If Turkey accepts to upgrade the T1s to T2 Block 15 level, maybe other users may also be more willing to go that route, as non recurring engineering costs would have been paid by us. This may bring Turkey closer to the consortium. If we want to seek much closer defence cooperation with EU/UK in the near future, forcing our way into EF consortium may be one way to achieve that. This of course brings additional costs we would need to endure.

This is of course just my thinking and another speculation. There's nothing to suggest government and MSB is interested in any of this for now. Maybe we just want airframes as quickly as possible and that's it. But with German president coming to Turkey with main agenda being defence cooperation, it's another possible junction. How real is a possibility of Turkish cooperation on FCAS with recent French senate report also mentioning Turkey and FCAS together?

I do hate not knowing any details, but there's some changes on the horizon, that much seems to be clear.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I don't think British T2s are for sale under their own considerations. If there is a deal that can be made here, that's another issue. But currently there are no T2 upgraded T1s in the world. If we go that route, our ex-RAF T1s would be the first in the world.

If you Investigated a bit more you will find that Spanish T1 planes have been upgraded to T2 with a good number of T3 equipment included as well. So ours wouldn’t be the first. But as stated in the above post, the upgrading of the software to the level of T3 standard on these to allow new electronic radars and Meteor to be integrated is not possible. That is the stumbling block.
T2s can be upgraded to T3 to allow Meteor and Storm Shadow integration. But not T1s. If the planes offered to us will include Meteor, then they have to be T2s that are upgraded to T3 standard.

Airbus delivers first upgraded Tranche 1 Typhoon to Spain

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Sanchez]

If you Investigated a bit more you will find that Spanish T1 planes have been upgraded to T2 with a good number of T3 equipment included as well. So ours wouldn’t be the first. But as stated in the above post, the upgrading of the software to the level of T3 standard on these to allow new electronic radars and Meteor to be integrated is not possible. That is the stumbling block.
T2s can be upgraded to T3 to allow Meteor and Storm Shadow integration. But not T1s. If the planes offered to us will include Meteor, then they have to be T2s that are upgraded to T3 standard.

Airbus delivers first upgraded Tranche 1 Typhoon to Spain

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

I had no idea. I'm not sure if these additions bring Meteor capability to the aircraft however.

"Unlike the other core nations, Spain decided to upgrade its 17 surviving Tranche 1 aircraft, introducing hardware modifications which support the Operational Flight Program 02 (OFP-02) developed by the Armament and Experimental Logistics Centre (CLAEX), and which provide a full multi-role capability. The upgrade was developed by Airbus and carried out at Getafe, and included the integration of some Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 equipment on the aircraft, including a new Computer Symbol Generator, Digital Video and Voice Recorder, provision for the Litening III Laser Designator Pod and a new Maintenance Data Panel."

Spain commits to 25 new Eurofighters under its Halcon II programme - AGN

In what was the first of a pair of orders for new Eurofighter aircraft from the original partner nations, Spain signed a formal contract for 25 new aircraft under its Halcon II programme on 20 December 2024. Italy would follow suit three days later, and confirmation of a further 20-aircraft...

aerospaceglobalnews.com

From a comment under that UK Defence Journal link:
"The reason T1 can’t fit captor E is to do with the bulk head. This was strengthened in T2 to take the extra weight for cooling required for larger computers. Rebuild cost are said to be up to $30 million per aircraft."
So this is where the 30 million per airframe claim comes from.

 

[Turkic]

It would cost less than a upgrade to restart production in the UK's production line @Yasar_TR abi mentioned. We would get first Typhoons by 2026 and deliveries of first 20 of T4 Typhoons would end by 2027-2028 by a production rate of 1 per month. Deliveries of the second batch 20 Typhoons would take until 2030.

Actually the paragraph above is a question itself because idk much about Typhoon's production. I hope if someone could tell me it's possibility.

I have another question;
I saw a newspaper saying T5 deliveries to Luftwaffe will start by this year. Is it true ? Is it possible for us to get T5's with Captor Mk2 by 2026 if production line in the UK produces for us ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

It would cost less than a upgrade to restart production in the UK's production line @Yasar_TR abi mentioned. We would get first Typhoons by 2026 and deliveries of first 20 of T4 Typhoons would end by 2027-2028 by a production rate of 1 per month. Deliveries of the second batch 20 Typhoons would take until 2030.

Actually the paragraph above is a question itself because idk much about Typhoon's production. I hope if someone could tell me it's possibility.

I have another question;
I saw a newspaper saying T5 deliveries to Luftwaffe will start by this year. Is it true ? Is it possible for us to get T5's with Captor Mk2 by 2026 if production line in the UK produces for us ?

Tranche numbers are bit of a snake oil story in the end. There are many tranche numbers flying up in the air. According to the UK , T4 with ECRS-MK2 is T4+ Standard.
After T3 all additions are small increments of improvements.
T4 has ECRS-MK1 (Hensoldt manufactured Aesa radar) which is a significant improvement over the ECRS-MK0 (Qatari T3 Typhoons’ Aesa radar) and is the version Germany is having in their first 38 unit order. Now they have placed a further 20 piece order for T5 Standard.
MK2 is the top of the range Aesa radar at the moment. Hence T4+ standard.

The Tranche 5 model, according to Airbus and Germany, boasts enhanced avionics, improved survivability, expanded multi-rolecapabilities, and increased compatibility with advanced weapon systems. It is being offered to India as a multi role fighter. T5 is supposed to contain distinct improvements over Rafale‘s latest model with apparent price advantages.

UK monitoring demand for new Typhoon fighter jets

The Ministry of Defence is evaluating the future demand for the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 4+ variant, both domestically and internationally.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Airbus and Germany Team Up to Offer Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 for India’s MRFA Tender - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Airbus, in collaboration with the Federal Republic of Germany, is preparing to field the advanced Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 for the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender. This tender, anticipated to be issued by...

idrw.org

 

[Saithan]

Tranche numbers are bit of a snake oil story in the end. There are many tranche numbers flying up in the air. According to the UK , T4 with ECRS-MK2 is T4+ Standard.
After T3 all additions are small increments of improvements.
T4 has ECRS-MK1 (Hensoldt manufactured Aesa radar) which is a significant improvement over the ECRS-MK0 (Qatari T3 Typhoons’ Aesa radar) and is the version Germany is having in their first 38 unit order. Now they have placed a further 20 piece order for T5 Standard.
MK2 is the top of the range Aesa radar at the moment. Hence T4+ standard.

The Tranche 5 model, according to Airbus and Germany, boasts enhanced avionics, improved survivability, expanded multi-rolecapabilities, and increased compatibility with advanced weapon systems. It is being offered to India as a multi role fighter. T5 is supposed to contain distinct improvements over Rafale‘s latest model with apparent price advantages.

UK monitoring demand for new Typhoon fighter jets

The Ministry of Defence is evaluating the future demand for the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 4+ variant, both domestically and internationally.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Airbus and Germany Team Up to Offer Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 for India’s MRFA Tender - Indian Defence Research Wing

SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Airbus, in collaboration with the Federal Republic of Germany, is preparing to field the advanced Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 for the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender. This tender, anticipated to be issued by...

idrw.org

Yes, hence I believe that T2-T3 must be the "factory" standard that everyone has as baseline. I also recall reading that EF was built that way to easier be adjusted to different needs of the consortium members.

Which isn't a bad idea considering flexibility is needed in order to reach more markets. However back when Denmark was looking at EF and F35 the price difference wasn't so big, and that is why I was thinking F35 would be a better pick for Denmark.

But considering the AI and cyber warfare I am not sure that F35 is a jet I'd pick as the sole airforce jet. Having autonomous control over the jet and IFF is very important and I don't think any country with their sanity in place would want to be that much dependant on F35.

What I'm saying is that in hindsight EF T4 /F16 B50/70 should be prefered as a baseline bare minimum because of familarity and autonomy.

 

[Strong AI]

I am still hopeing that once we get the approval for the EFs, we will cancel the Viper purchase and order more EFs.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I am still hopeing that once we get the approval for the EFs, we will cancel the Viper purchase and order more EFs.

We have to somewhat pay for the 79 upgrades work to be implemented to our F16s. We need Lockheed Martin approval to alter and replace parts on those planes. We need LM’s help too to make a smooth transition of the upgrading work. In a way, buying the 40 new F16V70 planes is the payment that will cover that. We have already made the initial payment for the 40 planes to start the production ball rolling. Are we going to forego that money?

Are we to ignore our Airforce and defence ministry’s claims that we do need to purchase both EF2000 planes and the F16s?

 

[uçuyorum]

We have to somewhat pay for the 79 upgrades work to be implemented to our F16s. We need Lockheed Martin approval to alter and replace parts on those planes. We need LM’s help too to make a smooth transition of the upgrading work. In a way, buying the 40 new F16V70 planes is the payment that will cover that. We have already made the initial payment for the 40 planes to start the production ball rolling. Are we going to forego that money?

Are we to ignore our Airforce and defence ministry’s claims that we do need to purchase both EF2000 planes and the F16s?

We still haven't signed the F16 deal which is weird honestly. But yeah we do need both, we have the lowest number of inventory in decades

 

[Strong AI]

We have to somewhat pay for the 79 upgrades work to be implemented to our F16s.

We have abandoned those kits and the production of "our" Vipers surely has not started yet, so we should be able to get most of the payment back. This is not the same case compared to the F-35 issue.

Minister Güler said, "An initial payment of 1.4 billion dollars has been made for the F-16s. 40 F-16s will be purchased. We have abandoned the 79 modernization kits. The Americans stated that they could provide the F-35."

Bakan Güler'den teğmen açıklaması: Kasıtlı organize disiplinsizlik! F-35 ve F-16 sürprizi

Haber 7 - Milli Savunma Bakanı Yaşar Güler, teğmenlerin kılıçlı korsan yeminine ilişkin "Suç kılıç çatmak değil, kasıtlı organize disiplinsizliktir." dedi. ABD'den

www.haber7.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

We have abandoned those kits and the production of "our" Vipers surely has not started yet, so we should be able to get most of the payment back. This is not the same case compared to the F-35 issue.

I like your optimism. A down payment is made to show you are serious about the purchase. Seller has every right to hold on to that money in case of cancellation of the order.

We abandoned the purchase of 79 kits in place of upgrading our F16s with our own Ozgur 2 programme in house. We need that upgrade programme.

Quote
Turkey will drop the plan to purchase 79 modernization kits for its F-16s and pursue a national upgrade program with Turkish Aerospace Industries. This would be done under the ambitious Özgür Project, which Turkey announced in early 2023.

Unquote

Turkey Drops Imported Modernization Kits for F-16s Over ‘Cheaper’ Domestic Program

Turkey will drop the plan to purchase 79 modernization kits for its F-16s and pursue a national upgrade program with Turkish Aerospace Industries. This

theaviationist.com

Türkiye 40 adet F-16V sipariş etti ancak F-16 C/D'lerini kendisi yükseltecek

Sadece bir yıl önce Ankara, kendi F-40 C/D bloğu 16'yi modernize etmek için Washington'dan 79 F-16V ve 50 kit satın alma yetkisini aldı.

meta-defense.fr

 

[Strong AI]

We need that upgrade programme.

The serial production of most of the parts needed for Özgür-2 started already.
Do we really need permission from the USA?

Contracts Inked for F-16 Block-30 ÖZGÜR-II & F-16 Block-40/50 ÖZGÜR-II Projects

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Sanchez]

Do we really need permission from the USA?

Possibly, yes. These are all FMS aircraft. 30 or so non CCIP aircraft we bought the source codes to are different, but the Özgür-II package for the CCIP planes are problematic. We need American coordination and okay there.