TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

Ripley

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“According to the Spanish newspaper @larazon_es , 40 Typhoon jets, the first 20 of which will be second-hand from the UK and the other 20 of which will be newly produced, are expected to enter service with Meteor missiles between 2026 and 2030.”


Not what we hoped for but also it’s a known fact that TurAF definitely need aircraft right now.
 

uçuyorum

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“According to the Spanish newspaper @larazon_es , 40 Typhoon jets, the first 20 of which will be second-hand from the UK and the other 20 of which will be newly produced, are expected to enter service with Meteor missiles between 2026 and 2030.”


Not what we hoped for but also it’s a known fact that TurAF definitely need aircraft right now.
I'm all for second hand if it means they will enter inventory next year, that would be very fast, and we can hopefully modernize them to tranche 4.
 

boredaf

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“According to the Spanish newspaper @larazon_es , 40 Typhoon jets, the first 20 of which will be second-hand from the UK and the other 20 of which will be newly produced, are expected to enter service with Meteor missiles between 2026 and 2030.”


Not what we hoped for but also it’s a known fact that TurAF definitely need aircraft right now.
That timeline, obviously if correct, would be pretty good for us. We won't rely on these jets for decades to come, even if we keep using them. But we need them to fill in the gaps, figuratively, while we wait for our own products to mature and go in to production.
 

Sanchez

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“According to the Spanish newspaper @larazon_es , 40 Typhoon jets, the first 20 of which will be second-hand from the UK and the other 20 of which will be newly produced, are expected to enter service with Meteor missiles between 2026 and 2030.”


Not what we hoped for but also it’s a known fact that TurAF definitely need aircraft right now.
Another news that contradicts the previous ones. Most recently Güler's statement saying they would all be new aircraft. Though recent history showed that his semi official remarks are hardly gospel.

I've said before that RAF T1s are not at the end of their service life and Brits are just too cash strapped to keep them flying and modernizing them. But, it's not even clear if these aircraft can be modernized in a realistic fashion. I really don't see the "give them to us and we'll make'em fly to the moon" angle working. These are aircraft we don't know and we have no experience with. Aselsan coming up with a mod package for these 20 aircraft in a shorter timeframe than a decade is a dream at best.

Some older but still very high performance aircraft compared to anything we have can still be good, if they are to be refurbished and deliveries to start quickly and if they come from RAF with Meteors. Per the newspaper:
"The first deliveries are expected to begin in 2026 and full operational capability is expected to be achieved by 2030."

First delivery to FOC in 4 years is good, but slower than what the Greeks achieved with second hand Rafales and new production airframes in 3 years. Of course we don't have the details, it's pretty light on them. There's no mention of refurbishment process in the UK, sale of spares, training of pilots, whether there would be a joint RAF/TurAF squadron etc.

Newspaper itself doesn't seem to be a defence publication, so we also cannot know if the claims are true. Maybe they are just regurgitating the previously stated claims.

Regardless, it's just better to wait and see without seeping much into guesswork. There's literally no official paper, no confirmation, no details of the sale yet. We are just tiring ourselves.
 

zio

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However, these are not the real ranges, but rather the estimated ranges. The Meteor's range is also 100-+150km with a zero escape zone of 60-70 km.
If at all, you can only reach such ranges if you fire your missiles top down to the target.

But I say that with reservations, I got the information from a German fighter pilot.
Dual pulse AA missiles are cheap alternative to meteor missile in tems of no escape zone
 

Ripley

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Another news that contradicts the previous ones. Most recently Güler's statement saying they would all be new aircraft. Though recent history showed that his semi official remarks are hardly gospel.

I've said before that RAF T1s are not at the end of their service life and Brits are just too cash strapped to keep them flying and modernizing them. But, it's not even clear if these aircraft can be modernized in a realistic fashion. I really don't see the "give them to us and we'll make'em fly to the moon" angle working. These are aircraft we don't know and we have no experience with. Aselsan coming up with a mod package for these 20 aircraft in a shorter timeframe than a decade is a dream at best.

Some older but still very high performance aircraft compared to anything we have can still be good, if they are to be refurbished and deliveries to start quickly and if they come from RAF with Meteors. Per the newspaper:
"The first deliveries are expected to begin in 2026 and full operational capability is expected to be achieved by 2030."

First delivery to FOC in 4 years is good, but slower than what the Greeks achieved with second hand Rafales and new production airframes in 3 years. Of course we don't have the details, it's pretty light on them. There's no mention of refurbishment process in the UK, sale of spares, training of pilots, whether there would be a joint RAF/TurAF squadron etc.

Newspaper itself doesn't seem to be a defence publication, so we also cannot know if the claims are true. Maybe they are just regurgitating the previously stated claims.

Regardless, it's just better to wait and see without seeping much into guesswork. There's literally no official paper, no confirmation, no details of the sale yet. We are just tiring ourselves.
I got a hunch that what they really want is the brand new ones expected to enter service around ‘26. I think RAF T1s are ’precondition’ of whole deal.
Nevertheless, when you consider that we have zero knowledge of the aircraft, it kinda makes sense, too.
 

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If it is true, is there chance that we are considering getting 20 T1 then getting 20+20 T4?(Using T1's as trainer later)
 

what

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Keep your personal beef at a minimum and no insults, name-calling.
No warnings this time but big brother is watching.
 

uçuyorum

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I think T1's already were decided to be scrapped, the way I understood is the 2nd hand EF we are getting wouldn't be those but newer ones
 

IC3M@N FX

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Eurofighter T1 makes no sense as a rapid response, it has no air-to-ground capabilities. It has no AESA radar, the EW and mission computer is technologically 15-20 years old and will be EoL by 2030 at the latest.

Who do you want to defend yourself against with this Aircraft? Every country around Turkey except now countries like Syria, Armenia & Co... have F-16 Block 60/70, F-15, SU-35/SU-57, modern Rafaele, modern Eurofighter and F-35 fighter planes.

There are virtually no spare parts left for Tranche 1, and upgrading a Eurofighter T1 is technically not possible.
The aircraft is a dead end and a waste of money, even if the government officials for the procurement of fighter aircraft in Turkey were on coke, they would not buy it.

In addition, the procurement of the Eurofighter is also intended to replace the mission profile of the F4 Phantom II Terminator 2020, so it makes no sense to buy an old superiority fighter without multirole capabilities.

Before you do something like that, you might as well get 20-30 used cheap J-17 Block 3 fighter planes from Pakistan and modify them immediately.
From the 30-40 F4 Phantom II Terminator 2020 in stock, 20 of them can still be repaired for the next 5 years and the remaining F4s can be used as spare parts stores.
Until KAAN 2029/30 with Kizilelma, Anka 3 are ready.
 
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Saithan

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I am sure there has been extensive feasibility works on upgrading the T1 to something more useful by RAF. I Imagine that is why the 20+20 deal is on the table. We may be paying a high price, but at least we get them faster.
 

Ripley

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Eurofighter T1 makes no sense as a rapid response, it has no air-to-ground capabilities. It has no AESA radar, the EW and mission computer is technologically 15-20 years old and will be EoL by 2030 at the latest.

Who do you want to defend yourself against with this Aircraft? Every country around Turkey except now countries like Syria, Armenia & Co... have F-16 Block 60/70, F-15, SU-35/SU-57, modern Rafaele, modern Eurofighter and F-35 fighter planes.

There are virtually no spare parts left for Tranche 1, and upgrading a Eurofighter T1 is technically not possible.
The aircraft is a dead end and a waste of money, even if the government officials for the procurement of fighter aircraft in Turkey were on coke, they would not buy it.

In addition, the procurement of the Eurofighter is also intended to replace the mission profile of the F4 Phantom II Terminator 2020, so it makes no sense to buy an old superiority fighter without multirole capabilities.

Before you do something like that, you might as well get 20-30 used cheap J-17 Block 3 fighter planes from Pakistan and modify them immediately.
From the 30-40 F4 Phantom II Terminator 2020 in stock, 20 of them can still be repaired for the next 5 years and the remaining F4s can be used as spare parts stores.
Until KAAN 2029/30 with Kizilelma, Anka 3 are ready.

I am sure there has been extensive feasibility works on upgrading the T1 to something more useful by RAF. I Imagine that is why the 20+20 deal is on the table. We may be paying a high price, but at least we get them faster.

My understanding is that TurAF is not really enthusiastic about T1 in particular either.
The EF deal, in any form, was mainly a British initiative afaik and started about two years ago.
The British convinced Germany and while doing that as a ‘token of appreciation‘, they blended their T1s into the mix, too.

On the other hand, sweet part of the deal must be the new variant which totally would meet the demands of TurAF as you pointed. But maybe even better than that, their deliveries will reportedly start around 2026 and that is great news. As it is, TurAF is suffering from lack of planes. It’s almost bordering to ‘neglect’.
So, this alone would help them take a short breath. Not a deep sigh of tough.

I’m not sure whether T1 will be upgraded at any level but most probably will be refurbished And that is not so bad either. Because we have zero experience, know-how on this plane. So, they will serve quite well as ‘transition’ bunch.

⚠️
PS: This comment is a speculation on my part. Please feel free to take it with abundant amount of salt.
 
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TR_123456

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“According to the Spanish newspaper @larazon_es , 40 Typhoon jets, the first 20 of which will be second-hand from the UK and the other 20 of which will be newly produced, are expected to enter service with Meteor missiles between 2026 and 2030.”


Not what we hoped for but also it’s a known fact that TurAF definitely need aircraft right now.
If this is true its big bs,the T1 brings nothing new to the table.
 

Sanchez

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I am sure there has been extensive feasibility works on upgrading the T1 to something more useful by RAF
UK military procurement for the last 40-50 years is always 70% budget cuts and 30% capability increase while lowering numbers. It's the remnant of an empire still trying to find its place in the world. It's the same reason why they almost couldn't send a full carrier group to Falklands in 1982 and had to push Hermes' retirement. Ships that would replace UK's older larger carriers were Invincible Class ships, light carriers whose main arm was not the Harriers but its ASW helicopters. Similar thing happened with the retirement of Invincibles and Harriers, and Royal Navy operated without a carrier for more than a decade. That's why they are also retiring their C-130Js in less than 30 years to replace them with A400s. British Army can hardly deploy a single division currently, and air force is at its lowest number of aircraft since 1910s. Wages are sky high, not enough people sign up to the armed forces and they see no real existing threats, so army continues to shrink. Didn't change much after 2022 either.

T1s could be upgraded. 2 reasons exist to why they aren't. 1: 3 countries(UK, Germany, Italy) decided it would be a better to keep the production lines of EF-2000 open by ordering more aircraft, as at the time they were having issues finding customers. Spanish followed suit. That's why if I'm remembering right all T1s are stuck at Block 5. They simply ordered more aircraft by choosing to either keep the T1s as is or by retiring them in the case of UK. 2: They believed upgrading the 130 or so T1s in various configurations in service with 5 countries(UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, Austria) would simply cost a lot.

British decided to retire their T1s early to cut costs to sell the F-35s to the air force and to keep their production line open by ordering more.

T1 Block 5s to my knowledge are not armed with Meteors. But they will be dirt cheap as Brits will either put them into storage or give them to us if the news is to be believed.

Some number of T1s, maybe majority of them in dual seating versions, could be a nice quick way to train the pilots with a joint squadron. Maybe they are not bought but rented for a few years with an option to buy them later on, weirder things did happen in the past.

I don't think upgrading them to an EF-2000T would be cost effective per se, but this should be thought on. Maybe a smaller upgrade package to bring them to T2 Block 15 level with AIM-120Cs and Meteors, maybe Göktuğ missiles in our own program. BAE did claim in the past this was doable, but British MoD rejected it, instead deciding to retire it.
My understanding is that TurAF is not really enthusiastic about it either.
From what's available on open sources, Turkish pilots that flew against them recently in Qatar and Pakistan in exercises loved them. Loved as in, EF-2000s scrubbed the floor with our F-16s. TurAF is bleeding for jets. Can't get F-35s, can't get Rafales, only option remains is the Typhoon, and it is a damn good jet. I think they saw that they were very behind now capability wise and they are pushing for new aircraft.

If this is true its big bs,the T1 brings nothing new to the table.
EF-2000 is heaps and bounds more capable than anything we have available right now, even in T1. I think it makes sense to get some T1s for combat training. And after they are done with majority of pilot training, they can be relegated to combat roles as well. At it's worst, T1 is a rate of climb monster that can scramble in a minute and be at 35k 2 minutes after that with mach 2 with 4 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9s. With smart use of resources, it could be used as a nice air superiority/interceptor aircraft with 2 1000 tanks and 6 missiles to counter Greek Rafales and Iranian Su-35s at high altitude.
 
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Ripley

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From what's available on open sources, Turkish pilots that flew against them recently in Qatar and Pakistan in exercises loved them. Loved as in, EF-2000s scrubbed the floor with our F-16s. TurAF is bleeding for jets. Can't get F-35s, can't get Rafales, only option remains is the Typhoon, and it is a damn good jet. I think they saw that they were very behind now capability wise and they are pushing for new aircraft.
When I said “enthusiastic”, I meant T1. Other than that, on social media, there were mostly admiration toward the aircraft by most pundits as well as Turkish authorities.
 

IC3M@N FX

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@Sanchez you cannot upgrade Eurofighter Tranche 1 to Tranche 2, 3 or 4 - it is technically impossible.
From Tranche 2 onwards the aircraft has been technically (hardware & software), and design technically (airframe) totally revised that the upgrades both physically and software technically are not downward compatible to Tranche 1. In principle, the aircraft with Tranche 2 is almost a different aircraft.
The Eurofighter Tranche 1 is an absolute dead end, you can upgrade it in certain points, e.g. mission computer, maybe also modern EW and new cockpit displays etc. but all this is cosmetic.
It will never get an AESA radar, it will never have air-to-ground capabilities. The Eurofighter consortium simply has no upgrade track for Tranche 1. Again this aircraft is a dead end every cent you invest in this aircraft is like throwing money in the bin in front of everyone and burning it you would embarrass yourself to the bone because you have tied yourself to it.

In the 21st century, whether you buy a used or new fighter aircraft, air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities, AESA Radar and modern EW are a must.
 
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@Sanchez you cannot upgrade Eurofighter Tranche 1 to Tranche 2, 3 or 4 - it is technically impossible.
From Tranche 2 onwards the aircraft has been technically (hardware & software), and design technically (airframe) totally revised that the upgrades both physically and software technically are not downward compatible to Tranche 1. In principle, the aircraft with Tranche 2 is almost a different aircraft.
The Eurofighter Tranche 1 is an absolute dead end, you can upgrade it in certain points, e.g. mission computer, maybe also modern EW and new cockpit displays etc. but all this is cosmetic.
It will never get an AESA radar, it will never have air-to-ground capabilities. The Eurofighter consortium simply has no upgrade track for Tranche 1. Again this aircraft is a dead end every cent you invest in this aircraft is like throwing money in the bin in front of everyone and burning it you would embarrass yourself to the bone because you have tied yourself to it.
You can upgrade Tranche 1 to Tranche 3, but I'm not sure Tranche 4.
The UK is retiring because the cost of upgrading a single T1 to a T3 costs £30 million, which is more than a new T4.

This is a stupid buy, I hope France or Germany blocks the deal.
We were part of the F-35 program, and set to receive 100 F-35's and now we are begging for T1 eurofighters..
Erdogan can stick that S-400 up his ass. No wonder the Air Force is against the stupid policies of this government.
 

uçuyorum

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You can upgrade Tranche 1 to Tranche 3, but I'm not sure Tranche 4.
The UK is retiring because the cost of upgrading a single T1 to a T3 costs £30 million, which is more than a new T4.

This is a stupid buy, I hope France or Germany blocks the deal.
We were part of the F-35 program, and set to receive 100 F-35's and now we are begging for T1 eurofighters..
Erdogan can stick that S-400 up his ass. No wonder the Air Force is against the stupid policies of this government.
A new T4 is less than 30? In what world
 

Hannibal

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A new T4 is less than 30? In what world
How much will you spend acquiring the aircraft first? Its half used. And that £30 million is only from T1 TO T3, I don't know the cost to upgrade to a further T4. You might as welll just buy new T4s.
 

Sanchez

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you cannot upgrade Eurofighter Tranche 1 to Tranche 2, 3 or 4 - it is technically impossible
BAE says it is "technically feasible", but maybe possibly not economically viable.

"In written evidence, BAE Systems said: “It is technically feasible to bring a Tranche 1 (T1) aircraft to the standard of a Tranche 2 (T2) or Tranche 3 (T3) aircraft. BAE Systems has previously provided data to the MOD that outlines the scope of structural and avionic modifications that would be required."

Other relevant parts:

"BAE Systems has not been asked to provide an assessment of the non-recurring design effort, nor associated costs, to implement such an upgrade. However, Spain has embarked upon a similar programme with some degree of concurrency available through multiple modification lines.

“Other Typhoon partner nations have also reviewed their fleets – Germany has concluded that it will retire its T1 aircraft but will purchase more aircraft under the Quadriga programme in order to maintain combat fleet numbers. Italy is reportedly considering acquiring new Typhoons, in response to the retirement of Tornado, and potentially to replace their Tranche 1 fleet.

“It is worth noting that there are some fundamental differences in the avionic equipment and in some areas of the aircraft structure between the T1 aircraft and those in the RAF’s T2 and T3 fleet,” the firm added."
 

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