Liu Xiaobo – the almost forgotten hero of Tiananmen Square | DW Documentary

xizhimen

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I would say GLF (because of the famine). Cultural revolution is another big bag of tragedy.

Our friend continues the triggered spam here and all his inane comparisons typically.

He wants to try to compared todays world leaders w.r.t covid to something like this:

Throughout the Great Leap forward, while millions starved to death, China remained a net exporter of grain as Mao directed grain exports and refused offers of international food relief in order to convince the rest of the world that his plans were a success.

Anyone can read the papers and do the research regd the authors credibility (And the archives and analysis and accounts they used) themselves. It explain CCP near entirely in the end, where they are coming from, where they are, and where they are going to w.r.t their psyche and narrative. Why things seem so monolithic and thus brittle and where that goes overall for such ideologies and their regimes and fanboys in the long term when they grow well beyond their britches (and unable to realise that themselves).

I see the change just this year locally. Before far more people would tolerate the few fanboys of CCP that would pipe up (having hypocritically immigrated here or come to study here etc)...but no longer. They bring up CCP favourably now at their immediate expense...they know better. It has been made plain to them why.

I think it all speaks more than enough volumes on the issue at hand....alongside our friend's apparent inability to see the larger connection of the thread to the CCP (and thus Mao) when he bring's that up as "now I get to deflect to completely off topic stuff in return because that's all off topic, I say so!".....along with other such things he expect to hold water here among anyone reading (and all the while helping to prove my point in the end).

This is the larger issue when people living under one-party system get used to it. It is difficult comprehension chasm to cross.
The west reports can not agree even on the number of deaths, their claims vary greatly from report to report, again, Mao didn't mean to kill people, it's a failed policy, like Trump handling the virus which resulted in 300,000 deaths so far. as for food export, no one had exact stats for that year, and it's not uncommon if so, India ranks near the bottom of global hunger index for many decades, but it still exports a lot of food .
Mao has died for almost half a century, and the west still enthusiastically talks about him like he was still alive, that's very weird, we don't see them talk about Roosevelt and other distant past leaders of their own.
As for one party state or what, they are the government of China and is responsible for the Chinese people, as long as we Chinese people are happy about it, it serves its purpose, it's not your government or your leaders, why you get so upset?
 

Joe Shearer

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It is a deliberate choice, @Nilgiri, not to be in response to any earlier post in this discussion, but to put in a word of my own.

It is certainly right to state that the deaths due to the Great Leap Forward and to the Cultural Revolution were the results of failed and over-ambitious (in the sense of over-optimistic) policies, rather than efforts to cause deaths of people. It is also correct to claim that the very large death-toll in the US currently, due to the bungled response to the pandemic, is again a failure of policy, a failure to address the pandemic rather than the popular response to it and the proposing of a proposed leadership response to it. Taking the arguments placed before us further, it is also true that the deaths of 4 million Bengalis (=in terms of this discussion, 4 million Indians) was due to policy failure, rather than a deliberate attempt at genocide. We can add a number of examples of this, and subtract a number of examples of the other kind, deliberate action to kill people, such as the Nazi death camps, or Stalin's attempt at resolving the 'nationalities' problem, and make some very sophisticated arguments.

To use these correct taxonomic decisions as substitutes for political analysis is self-seeking, and not in a particularly individual character; it tends towards self-seeking in terms of a fictional self-aggrandisement by a segment in a 'manifest destiny' kind of context. In effect, it is being stated that those instances of the savage ill-treatments of a population subject to military or autocratic control, subject to the use of force, are equal, in some way, to the instances of similar effects in the cases of populations NOT subject to such military and autocratic control. The instance of the discussion around the Burkha comes to mind.

These instances are not equal to each other. In the case of the examples from populations under the threat of armed force, military or civilian (the use of the PLA, considering its positioning as the strong arm of the party rather than as the strong arm of the nation, is illustrative), there is a vital element that differentiates it from examples from populations NOT under such forced conditions. That element is widespread knowledge in the latter case, the conscious and deliberate suppression of information in the former case. What Trump has done to the American people is widely known, already, even before the horrific impact is over. What Churchill did to the people of Bengal, India, is equally widely known, and has been meticulously researched. There is far less ambiguity about the numbers; they are still not defined with precision, but that is due to the failure of the then machinery to enumerate the savage impact, partly due to political reasons, partly due to administrative failure. There is far more ambiguity about the numbers concerned in the examples generally grouped under controlled populations; those numbers are not intended to be known, and are deliberately suppressed.

That is policy; it is policy intended to obscure history, and the record of failed decisions, specifically in order to create the narrative that is being presented now, a narrative that states (in part) that great things have been achieved, that great mistakes have been made in trying to achieve such great things, and that the great mistakes were worth the pain because these mistakes are an integral part of a progress that benefited the people at the end of the day. In short, the efforts at suppressing the information in a deliberate, planned manner is essentially and characteristically different from the studied neglect of such information, by, for instance, the British Empire and its Indian representatives; it is the same as the Nazi and the Stalinist efforts at suppressing information, or, for that matter, the Japanese efforts at suppressing information about atrocities committed against the Chinese population during the Sino-Japanese War, or the nascent attempts by the Republican Party in the US to misrepresent and to seek to distort the impact of the failed policies relating to the pandemic.

Stating that Tienanmen is a catchall phrase that has been distorted (the date, June 3, against June 4; the place, outside Tienanmen, as against within the square), or arguing that the present organisational control of the CPC is in the hands of the 'Tienanmen' generation, are fairly flimsy defences that need only a cursory acknowledgement in the process of brushing these aside to concentrate on the main argument. That main argument is that Chinese subjugation to Manchu rule, and earlier, to Mongol rule, that the relentless drive to homogenise culture within broad boundaries determined by an artificial construction of Han culture has crushed many independent and viable cultures on the borders. An obvious example is the grotesque deformation of the 'outer' Tibetan culture of Qing Hai, that is conveniently obscured by the present savage excesses committed against the Uyghur and the Inner Tibetan alike.

How does it matter to us, and why should it matter to us? The answers are fairly obvious, and it is infantile to pretend that the only people concerned with these matters are the Chinese people, and as long as they are content with this state of affairs, there is no need for others to get wound up. Infantile, because progressively the self-determined boundaries of Han dominion are being expanded.

In the 18th century, East Turkestan was precisely that: East Turkestan. It was arguably the ur-heimat for the Turkic people, from where they started to expand into central Asia and finally come to a presence on three continents. It was in the later stages the seat of a very powerful tribal and military grouping, the Dzungarians; ironically, China's extremely flimsy claims to Inner Tibet are founded on the record of Dzungarian domination of the region, and cultural affinities that were structured by Dzungarian rulers, affinities that have in a further development of irony being rejected by the self-proclaimed successors to the Dzungarians. This entire cultural complex was destroyed by a complete and comprehensive genocide, that wiped out the Dzungarians, and that deliberately injected the Uyghur into the region as a vassal people.

In the 20th, now the 21st century, that is what applies to Inner Tibet. This is where the importance of understanding the Borg-like assimilation of other cultures by the Han becomes important, for a deliberately multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-lingual and multivariate state such as India. When a governing philosophy of the sort that is today represented by the Tienanmen generation of party politicians of the CPC is in power, and presents itself to all its neighbours, that is the moment and the situation when it becomes everybody's business, not just the business of the Chinese people.
 

Nilgiri

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It is a deliberate choice, @Nilgiri, not to be in response to any earlier post in this discussion, but to put in a word of my own.

It is certainly right to state that the deaths due to the Great Leap Forward and to the Cultural Revolution were the results of failed and over-ambitious (in the sense of over-optimistic) policies, rather than efforts to cause deaths of people. It is also correct to claim that the very large death-toll in the US currently, due to the bungled response to the pandemic, is again a failure of policy, a failure to address the pandemic rather than the popular response to it and the proposing of a proposed leadership response to it. Taking the arguments placed before us further, it is also true that the deaths of 4 million Bengalis (=in terms of this discussion, 4 million Indians) was due to policy failure, rather than a deliberate attempt at genocide. We can add a number of examples of this, and subtract a number of examples of the other kind, deliberate action to kill people, such as the Nazi death camps, or Stalin's attempt at resolving the 'nationalities' problem, and make some very sophisticated arguments.

To use these correct taxonomic decisions as substitutes for political analysis is self-seeking, and not in a particularly individual character; it tends towards self-seeking in terms of a fictional self-aggrandisement by a segment in a 'manifest destiny' kind of context. In effect, it is being stated that those instances of the savage ill-treatments of a population subject to military or autocratic control, subject to the use of force, are equal, in some way, to the instances of similar effects in the cases of populations NOT subject to such military and autocratic control. The instance of the discussion around the Burkha comes to mind.

These instances are not equal to each other. In the case of the examples from populations under the threat of armed force, military or civilian (the use of the PLA, considering its positioning as the strong arm of the party rather than as the strong arm of the nation, is illustrative), there is a vital element that differentiates it from examples from populations NOT under such forced conditions. That element is widespread knowledge in the latter case, the conscious and deliberate suppression of information in the former case. What Trump has done to the American people is widely known, already, even before the horrific impact is over. What Churchill did to the people of Bengal, India, is equally widely known, and has been meticulously researched. There is far less ambiguity about the numbers; they are still not defined with precision, but that is due to the failure of the then machinery to enumerate the savage impact, partly due to political reasons, partly due to administrative failure. There is far more ambiguity about the numbers concerned in the examples generally grouped under controlled populations; those numbers are not intended to be known, and are deliberately suppressed.

That is policy; it is policy intended to obscure history, and the record of failed decisions, specifically in order to create the narrative that is being presented now, a narrative that states (in part) that great things have been achieved, that great mistakes have been made in trying to achieve such great things, and that the great mistakes were worth the pain because these mistakes are an integral part of a progress that benefited the people at the end of the day. In short, the efforts at suppressing the information in a deliberate, planned manner is essentially and characteristically different from the studied neglect of such information, by, for instance, the British Empire and its Indian representatives; it is the same as the Nazi and the Stalinist efforts at suppressing information, or, for that matter, the Japanese efforts at suppressing information about atrocities committed against the Chinese population during the Sino-Japanese War, or the nascent attempts by the Republican Party in the US to misrepresent and to seek to distort the impact of the failed policies relating to the pandemic.

Stating that Tienanmen is a catchall phrase that has been distorted (the date, June 3, against June 4; the place, outside Tienanmen, as against within the square), or arguing that the present organisational control of the CPC is in the hands of the 'Tienanmen' generation, are fairly flimsy defences that need only a cursory acknowledgement in the process of brushing these aside to concentrate on the main argument. That main argument is that Chinese subjugation to Manchu rule, and earlier, to Mongol rule, that the relentless drive to homogenise culture within broad boundaries determined by an artificial construction of Han culture has crushed many independent and viable cultures on the borders. An obvious example is the grotesque deformation of the 'outer' Tibetan culture of Qing Hai, that is conveniently obscured by the present savage excesses committed against the Uyghur and the Inner Tibetan alike.

How does it matter to us, and why should it matter to us? The answers are fairly obvious, and it is infantile to pretend that the only people concerned with these matters are the Chinese people, and as long as they are content with this state of affairs, there is no need for others to get wound up. Infantile, because progressively the self-determined boundaries of Han dominion are being expanded.

In the 18th century, East Turkestan was precisely that: East Turkestan. It was arguably the ur-heimat for the Turkic people, from where they started to expand into central Asia and finally come to a presence on three continents. It was in the later stages the seat of a very powerful tribal and military grouping, the Dzungarians; ironically, China's extremely flimsy claims to Inner Tibet are founded on the record of Dzungarian domination of the region, and cultural affinities that were structured by Dzungarian rulers, affinities that have in a further development of irony being rejected by the self-proclaimed successors to the Dzungarians. This entire cultural complex was destroyed by a complete and comprehensive genocide, that wiped out the Dzungarians, and that deliberately injected the Uyghur into the region as a vassal people.

In the 20th, now the 21st century, that is what applies to Inner Tibet. This is where the importance of understanding the Borg-like assimilation of other cultures by the Han becomes important, for a deliberately multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-lingual and multivariate state such as India. When a governing philosophy of the sort that is today represented by the Tienanmen generation of party politicians of the CPC is in power, and presents itself to all its neighbours, that is the moment and the situation when it becomes everybody's business, not just the business of the Chinese people.

A very well put analysis of the issues at hand. I agree near 100%.

But you know me, I sometimes skirmish away from my own position (known to me in the end only), to test and see what another's position is and how he is able to argue and defend it, if he can at all.
 

Joe Shearer

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A very well put analysis of the issues at hand. I agree near 100%.

But you know me, I sometimes skirmish away from my own position (known to me in the end only), to test and see what another's position is and how he is able to argue and defend it, if he can at all.
Good Heavens, man, I wasn't contradicting you; I was smarting from a resentment of the blatant chauvinism in quite another post, and addressed you as an audience in the abstract, if you get what I mean.
 

xizhimen

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It is a deliberate choice, @Nilgiri, not to be in response to any earlier post in this discussion, but to put in a word of my own.

It is certainly right to state that the deaths due to the Great Leap Forward and to the Cultural Revolution were the results of failed and over-ambitious (in the sense of over-optimistic) policies, rather than efforts to cause deaths of people. It is also correct to claim that the very large death-toll in the US currently, due to the bungled response to the pandemic, is again a failure of policy, a failure to address the pandemic rather than the popular response to it and the proposing of a proposed leadership response to it. Taking the arguments placed before us further, it is also true that the deaths of 4 million Bengalis (=in terms of this discussion, 4 million Indians) was due to policy failure, rather than a deliberate attempt at genocide. We can add a number of examples of this, and subtract a number of examples of the other kind, deliberate action to kill people, such as the Nazi death camps, or Stalin's attempt at resolving the 'nationalities' problem, and make some very sophisticated arguments.
Declassified CIA documents show that wide spread malnutrition happened in early 1960's but no large scale famine in China.

Western media propaganda is a lie even being debunked by their own old documents and records.

253046482.jpg
 

Nilgiri

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and of course the CIA never revised their intel brief/analysis afterwards?

*China still exporting grain* = can't be that bad surely (immediate time frame)

Cpl (or many) years later (as gravity and truth percolates out drip by distrubing bit)....oh wait.

The sheer gall of some people cherrypicking like this....disputing their own Chinese intellectuals later full analysis (people actually willing to put their name on the record and all the archives they used too....the very antithesis of todays anonymous-interwebz-chauvinist).
 

xizhimen

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Cpl (or many) years later (as gravity and truth percolates out drip by distrubing bit)....oh wait.

The sheer gall of some people cherrypicking like this....disputing their own Chinese intellectuals later full analysis (people actually willing to put their name on the record and all the archives they used too....the very antithesis of todays anonymous-interwebz-chauvinist).
Which our own intellectuals? our "intellectuals" won't state a vague, controversial event as a matter of fact, there are so many events in the Chinese history that Chinese intellectuals debate and don't agree with each other but they never say their own version must be a matter of fact.

_20201217210448-png.697315


Mao came to power in 1949, died in 1976, in power for 27 years, in 1949 China's population was 400 million, in 1976, the nubmber increased to 800 million. China's population more than doubled during Mao's 27 years in power.

This huge increase of population in such a short span of time was unprecedented in the Chinese history, Mao brought the end to China's 100 years wars and humiliations by the foreign powers, created a peaceful and stable time era and made the ground for the population growth, before Mao, the Chinese population had been stagnant for centuries due to incessant wars, famines, natural disasters, plagues and mismanagements.
 

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