TR Aircraft Carrier & Amphibious Ship Programs

Miskin

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By the time carrier is ready (2032-33) we will have;
Kızılelma (serial production)
Anka-3 (serial production)
Hürjet (naval, near serial production)
Tei 35k engine (near serial production)

At that point, I think either Baykar alone (Piaggio experience) or with TUSAŞ (Kaan experience) will make a manned jet based on Kızılelma (which will already have working avionics and be navalised) in relatively short time (4-5 years).
 

dBSPL

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Directorate of Comunnications shared an article from Chinese "The Paper"


Here is an important part (Google translated)

"Türkiye plans to equip the MUGEM class aircraft carrier with approximately 50 aircraft. The naval variant of Hürjet, developed by TAI, is being considered as the ship's main combat aircraft. Hürjet's poor performance may create difficulties in using the full capacity of this ship. However, unmanned aerial vehicles can compensate for this shortcoming."
If the planning for the Hürjet is evolving towards combatant, then we must have access to an engine with a combat power of over 100kN. And this engine must be in diameter that there is no need to change the Hürjet airframe. Otherwise, this planning will either lead to a new platform developing and a restart of most of the processes, or the capacity of the existing engine will limit the naval air force.

By the time carrier is ready (2032-33) we will have;
Kızılelma (serial production)
Anka-3 (serial production)
Hürjet (naval, near serial production)
Tei 35k engine (near serial production)

At that point, I think either Baykar alone (Piaggio experience) or with TUSAŞ (Kaan experience) will make a manned jet based on Kızılelma (which will already have working avionics and be navalised) in relatively short time (4-5 years).
The fact that MUGEM is being designing so that the catapult system is fitted for but not with, indicates that this will be a very long journey. Even after the ship enters service, it will undergo more than a decade of refits, additional integrations and upgrades. Therefore, in addition to the systems that exist today, there will also be air platforms that will directly emerge from the MUGEM project in the near future. In addition, shipborne fixed-wing aircrafts will enter naval aviation and their organization within the joint forces will be very detailed. I look at MUGEM as a school or a milestone that symbolizes the birth of Turkish naval combatant aviation rather than at an operational level. We will learn a lot and what we learn will add a whole new perspective to our military industries, especially our aviation industry.
 
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Sanchez

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Director of Naval Forces Design Project Office Assoc. Prof. Dr. Colonel Uçar:

"In this way, we have also determined the propulsion power and propulsion system that the ship will need. We have carried out multidimensional maritime analyses to ensure that our ship can operate even in the worst weather conditions in the world's seas. We are working on the ship's three-dimensional layout plans. In order for our air vehicles to be deployed to MUGEM to safely perform take-off tests from the flight ramp, we first designed the land-based flight ramp. The construction of the test ramp is currently underway.

We are following the development of our national pride KAAN with great appreciation and wish to have it on our National Aircraft Carrier. KAAN was designed to take off and land from conventional runways. Special modifications are required for it to be able to operate from an aircraft carrier. We are continuing to exchange information with TUSAŞ so that KAAN, whose prototype production is currently ongoing, can take off and land from our ship in the event that its naval version is produced.

As a result of the design studies, the ship will have a displacement of approximately 60 thousand tons (the amount of water displaced), a width of 72 m and a full length of 285 m. The flight deck will have two take-off runways with 3 raceways and 1 landing runway. The short-range take-off and rope-catch system STOBAR for aircraft will also be installed. It will be able to travel 10 thousand nautical miles without refueling. In other words, it will be able to go from Istanbul to New York and back. It will be able to reach a maximum speed of 25 knots (45 km) with its main propulsion system consisting of 4 gas turbines. It will be able to perform sea missions with a capacity of at least 50 manned and unmanned aerial vehicles.

 

Hannibal

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Director of Naval Forces Design Project Office Assoc. Prof. Dr. Colonel Uçar:

"In this way, we have also determined the propulsion power and propulsion system that the ship will need. We have carried out multidimensional maritime analyses to ensure that our ship can operate even in the worst weather conditions in the world's seas. We are working on the ship's three-dimensional layout plans. In order for our air vehicles to be deployed to MUGEM to safely perform take-off tests from the flight ramp, we first designed the land-based flight ramp. The construction of the test ramp is currently underway.

We are following the development of our national pride KAAN with great appreciation and wish to have it on our National Aircraft Carrier. KAAN was designed to take off and land from conventional runways. Special modifications are required for it to be able to operate from an aircraft carrier. We are continuing to exchange information with TUSAŞ so that KAAN, whose prototype production is currently ongoing, can take off and land from our ship in the event that its naval version is produced.

As a result of the design studies, the ship will have a displacement of approximately 60 thousand tons (the amount of water displaced), a width of 72 m and a full length of 285 m. The flight deck will have two take-off runways with 3 raceways and 1 landing runway. The short-range take-off and rope-catch system STOBAR for aircraft will also be installed. It will be able to travel 10 thousand nautical miles without refueling. In other words, it will be able to go from Istanbul to New York and back. It will be able to reach a maximum speed of 25 knots (45 km) with its main propulsion system consisting of 4 gas turbines. It will be able to perform sea missions with a capacity of at least 50 manned and unmanned aerial vehicles.

3 Runways. 2 Takeoff and 1 landing.

In CATOBAR version could it become 3 takeoff, 1 landing?
 

Sanchez

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3 Runways. 2 Takeoff and 1 landing.

In CATOBAR version could it become 3 takeoff, 1 landing?
Not with the current layout, no. "Raceways" here refer to launch positions. Port side positions overlap, one is for larger aircraft/higher MTOW requirements.

1739918041800.png
 

Hannibal

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How many Kaan’s could this carry? I remember them saying a total of 50 aircraft.
 

Sanchez

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How many Kaan’s could this carry? I remember them saying a total of 50 aircraft.
Kaan is not currently being developed for MUGEM. And we don't know, preliminary hangar design is not public.
 

Yasar_TR

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Why bother making a KAAN for MUGEM?
Navalise Hurjet with a more powerful EJ200 engine. We can even think about a TVC version of this engine on Hurjet that develops more thrust; Together with Spain’s ITP, who worked on the TVC for this engine and carried 400 odd tests on it.
In this format, Hurjet would become a real agile dogfight monster. (Dry thrust, with TVC version goes up by 7% to close to 15000lbf - compare that with f404’s 11000lbf!.)

Use twin seat Hurjets to manage Anka-3 and KE. By this time both will have matured in their stealth capabilities. What Hurjet lacks in stealth, these two will amply make up for it.

EJ200 with TVC prototype.

1740243479233.jpeg

1740243842107.jpeg

 

Turkic

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Why bother making a KAAN for MUGEM?
Navalise Hurjet with a more powerful EJ200 engine. We can even think about a TVC version of this engine on Hurjet that develops more thrust; Together with Spain’s ITP, who worked on the TVC for this engine and carried 400 odd tests on it.
In this format, Hurjet would become a real agile dogfight monster. (Dry thrust, with TVC version goes up by 7% to close to 15000lbf.)

Use twin seat Hurjets to manage Anka-3 and KE. By this time both will have matured in their stealth capabilities. What Hurjet lacks in stealth, these two will amply make up for it.

EJ200 with TVC prototype.

View attachment 73812
View attachment 73813

Mission oriented jets like F-16 (first blocks), F-22 or A-10 are not wise choices to put on AC's. Instead, multi-purpose jets like F-4, F-14, F-35, Rafale, SU-33, Mig-29 are capable of doing the job of 3 jets in one. F-35 was supposed to be the best example for this and it is; although it's all problems.

Same is viable for our systems too. Hürjet is to be a poor man's multi-role fighter (I don't mean it's bad. Cheap things can be good too), Kızılelma is to be an air superiority fighter and Anka-3 is a deep strike bomber. Kaan can cover all of these jobs with some lacks. It is to be a multi-role fighter, it can't have low costs as Hürjet have. It is to be a air superiority fighter, it can't be risked as Kızılelma since it has a human being in it. It is to be a deep strike bomber, it can't be used as nothing since it has a human being in it unlike the Anka-3.

I accept it is important to have cost-effective systems and unmanned systems in modern doctrines. However, you can have 2 squadrons of Kaan's instead of a mix of 50+ Hürjet, Kızılelma and Anka-3's. So you'll have 30~50 jets capable of doing all instead of having 15-20 jets to do one job each.

It will be good to have unmanned systems on AC but I would sacrifice Hürjet and put few less Kızılelma and Anka-3's to have Kaan on it if we can. If we can't, I support you on this.

Main idea of the post: Kaan may be big but it can cover most of the 3 can do which would take more space in hangar in total. That's why multi-role jets are chosen to be put on AC's worldwide (F-22 is an exception, it has different reasons why not).

I'd like to see EJ-200 Hürjet's with or w/o TVC anyways.
 

TheInsider

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Deploying Kaan on MUGEM is very problematic. Current KAAN has to be redesigned from scratch for STOBAR configuration (ramp+arresting gear without catapult)

It might be possible to use KAAN with heavy modifications in the CATOBAR (catapult+arresting gear) configuration. The problem is we need an electromagnetic catapult for that as there is no way we can develop a steam catapult for MUGEM. When it comes to electromagnetic catapult we need an EM catapult similar to the Chinese one as the American EM catapult is heavy, complex, clunky, and takes a lot of space. On the other hand, the Chinese EM catapult is compact enough to be integrated into a ship of around ~30000 tons.
This way we can deploy the current KAAN on MUGEM albeit with heavy modifications.

 

boredaf

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Why bother making a KAAN for MUGEM?
Navalise Hurjet with a more powerful EJ200 engine. We can even think about a TVC version of this engine on Hurjet that develops more thrust; Together with Spain’s ITP, who worked on the TVC for this engine and carried 400 odd tests on it.
In this format, Hurjet would become a real agile dogfight monster. (Dry thrust, with TVC version goes up by 7% to close to 15000lbf - compare that with f404’s 11000lbf!.)

Use twin seat Hurjets to manage Anka-3 and KE. By this time both will have matured in their stealth capabilities. What Hurjet lacks in stealth, these two will amply make up for it.

EJ200 with TVC prototype.

View attachment 73812
View attachment 73813
Then why bother putting a jet on the carrier at all? Both KE and Anka-3 has blos control already, with autonomous controls of drones ever progressing, by the time the carrier is ready we might not even have to control them at all. We can build Trakya and another 2 like it and other ships by the price 1 of one carrier if drones are to be its main force.

Turning a trainer into a naval jet to use in 2040s is utterly insane mate. It'll be far, far inferior to anything it might face by then. It's geometry isn't stealthy, it's payload is not even half of an F-16. Putting it on a carrier just to control drones that doesn't have to be controlled from a jet is illogical.

A carrier isn't something you half-arse, and putting Hürjet, even a modified one, on a carrier that is going to cost billions to design and build in 2040s is truly insane. At least with Kaan, especially imo a single engine Kaan, you have a 5th gen plane that could go toe-to-toe with any other out there.
 

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Maybe a deal can be made with China to buy EM catapult or tech transfer. Going from STOBAR to CATOBAR will be expensive, they should’ve gone straight to CATOBAR.
 

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Doesn't it make more sense to design a completely new Aircraft? Similar in size to the F-18 Super Hornet but with full Stealth characteristics.
Turkey have a contract with countless of GE F404 Engines anyway.
Surely you can build something useful with two GE F404 engines that is also cheap.
With an internal weapons bay for 3-4 AAM including 6-8 external hardpoints and carrying a total of 7-8 tons of ammunition.
The Aircraft would be relatively competitive as a workhorse (F-16 replacement as multirole) and as a Naval platform against all other Aircraft, except now the absolute high-end aircraft like F-22/F-35 or TAI KAAN, J20 & Co.
Later on, as with the KAAN, more powerful domestic Engines with better Stealth characteristics can be built, which would bring performance closer to the F-35.

Finally, it also depends on what kind of Engines Turkey has available in the next 10-15 years.

2x GE F110 129 for TAI KAAN
2x TEI TF 35000 from 2029/30 realistically more likely 2031/32 as Series Engine.

GE F404 for TAI Hürjet
2x GE F404 for TAI Multirole & Naval Fighter
2x TEI TF-25000??? 2037/38 140kn Dry 200kn Wet Total
 

Yasar_TR

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Then why bother putting a jet on the carrier at all? Both KE and Anka-3 has blos control already, with autonomous controls of drones ever progressing, by the time the carrier is ready we might not even have to control them at all. We can build Trakya and another 2 like it and other ships by the price 1 of one carrier if drones are to be its main force.

Turning a trainer into a naval jet to use in 2040s is utterly insane mate. It'll be far, far inferior to anything it might face by then. It's geometry isn't stealthy, it's payload is not even half of an F-16. Putting it on a carrier just to control drones that doesn't have to be controlled from a jet is illogical.

A carrier isn't something you half-arse, and putting Hürjet, even a modified one, on a carrier that is going to cost billions to design and build in 2040s is truly insane. At least with Kaan, especially imo a single engine Kaan, you have a 5th gen plane that could go toe-to-toe with any other out there.
The real question you should be asking is: Why bother building a MUGEM at all?
1. We don’t have a decent aircraft to do it justice.
2. The ship itself is too expensive to build and to maintain for a country like ours.
3. We don’t have the expertise and technologies to operate and build a 65000ton carrier that would be commensurate with the needs of a ship of that caliber. We will be learning it as we are building it.

Yes, drone ships would be more useful than a carrier to us.

Hell! We don’t even have suitable helicopters to operate from our LHD. We are having to make do with used, old US AH1Ws. We have not enough Seahawk class platforms. Our c47s are not navalised. So unsuitable for it.
That carrier will need as many helicopters as the LHD.
(All our frigates and the TF2000s will need 2 Seahawk Class helicopters each as they are designed to accommodate two)
And we are contemplating furnishing our carrier with stealthy jets, that will be oversized and overpriced for that job.

Designing a stealth navalised fighter jet is going to take many years. First we have to get KAAN in to inventory of our Air Force. Then let it mature before we can go back to the drawing board to design a navalised stealth aircraft.

Our naval specialists must see the feasibility of navalising and using Hurjets from the carrier rather than KAAN. That is why both is on the discussion table. To see which is the right way, and more importantly the feasible way to go.
Do you think it would be easy to navalise Hurjet? It would take years too. But at least it is more readily available. Simpler to work on. Its size would be an advantage. Once fortified with a more powerful engine, a new Aesa radar and modern avionics, it can operate as a capable fighter. What will make KE and Anka-3 most effective and game changer class weapons, will be their capability to be used in loyal wingman format and be controlled by Hurjets against enemy targets and planes. On their own they may each have weaknesses. But when they join forces they become lethal.

In fact a simpler and even cheaper solution would be to purchase a couple of squadrons of navalised Typhoons to add to the ones we are planning to order now. It would save us developing a plane for the carrier, if and when we have it built.
1740277796584.jpeg

 

boredaf

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The real question you should be asking is: Why bother building a MUGEM at all?
1. We don’t have a decent aircraft to do it justice.
2. The ship itself is too expensive to build and to maintain for a country like ours.
3. We don’t have the expertise and technologies to operate and build a 65000ton carrier that would be commensurate with the needs of a ship of that caliber. We will be learning it as we are building it.

Yes, drone ships would be more useful than a carrier to us.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said mate. I have made my point of view clear before, I see this as a vanity project, nothing more. We are a regional power, with some interest overseas but not across oceans. We don't need a ship that can "travel to New York and back". If we want to project strength, or protect our interests in Africa, for example, we can do so easily by sending two LHDs with escorts and/or having bases on those countries from which we could operate drones and USVs if necessary.

And one more point, we are also going to have to produce enough frigates/destroyers to protect it, while also not leaving our seas short, and logistic/support ships to go with it, again while also keeping enough for our fleets back home.
Our naval specialists must see the feasibility of navalising and using Hurjets from the carrier rather than KAAN.
Do they? Or are they being pushed into it by the timetable put in front of them, on top of TAI's incessant push for Hürjet to be used as everything, to recoup their costs (imo). I honestly (and obviously) have no idea, but I genuinely can't believe that our navy would want Hürjet on that carrier instead of Kaan (or a variant of it) after all their long term planning and how careful they have been with all their procurement. Having Hürjet on MUGEM is not future proofing that ship, a ship that would most likely become our new flagship and would be in use in 2040s and forward.

Designing a stealth navalised fighter jet is going to take many years. First we have to get KAAN in to inventory of our Air Force. Then let it mature before we can go back to the drawing board to design a navalised stealth aircraft.
That's true but design will be frozen in not too distant future and production will take priority while future blocks come out later on. We have 15 years (give or take, I doubt we'll see a carrier before 2040) before we need these jets, and given how long it took us to design and start testing Kaan, I don't see how we wouldn't be able to design a naval version with everything we have learned in that time. And the end result would be a jet that is stronger and safer on its own, well worth the cost.
In fact a simpler and even cheaper solution would be to purchase a couple of squadrons of navalised Typhoons to add to the ones we are planning to order now. It would save us developing a plane for the carrier, if and when we have it built.
Not only a navalised Typhoon doesn't exist, not even as a prototype, it would also need substantial changes as well. If you look at the date of that article, and the subsequent comments after their bid on Indian carrier program, you'll see that it is simply dead. Plus, while our relationship with UK is okay right now, it isn't guaranteed that it'll remain so in the future. What if that cunt Farage wins the next election? Not having an engine of our own (as opposed to TF3X000) is a liability for the future as well.
 

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We didn't talk about it much, but Anadolu was in the shipyard for the last 2-3 months and drydocked for about a month. I believe this was her first drydock since she was launched in 2019?

I think she was dry-docked at least for once in between and visited shipyard (SEDEF Shipyard) multiple times. 6 years is too long for a new ship to not go into maintenance.

First dry dock should be in one of the 2nd-3rd-4th year.

However this is the first Dry Dock in İstanbul Shipyard Command / Pendik Naval Shipyard. I am rather surprised that she was drydocked here, i believed all maintenance would have carried out in SEDEF.
 

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The Turkish Navy has a strict policy to maintain and gain maintenance capability for its own ships and boats. The Navy probably invested in capabilities to do the maintenance work for the TCG Anadolu.
 

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We didn't talk about it much, but Anadolu was in the shipyard for the last 2-3 months and drydocked for about a month. I believe this was her first drydock since she was launched in 2019?


"The first landing-take-off test was successfully completed on November 19, 2024 in order to provide TCG Anadolu with TB3 UAV landing-take-off capability. Work continues by the construction shipyard SEDEF for the integration of the Ground Control Station (GCS) and Ground Data Terminal (GDT) into the ship with the contract amendment."
 
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