Pakistan-India Conflict (2025)

[Nilgiri]

NYT as in New York Times?
I dont trust anything coming from that news paper/site.
I'll wait for you guys(you and @Afif ) to tell us what really happened on both sides.

Yah I use it catch all reference for "western media". They are seen as gold standard and the time was lot better managed overall in cold war to some degree compared to total crap its like now in comparison (western media ecosystem).

So how are other media ecosystems going to be and then social media in the end "today"? Only worse.

So as far as possible I use official press releases only (from the govts themselves) and with plenty of time given after conflict when such things are done and people have analysed lot more as well....generally people that have distaste towards media stuff and goosestepping jingo emotions in general that permeate the 95% of ppl wanting "summaries" rather than cold hard facts/takeaways.

This is why its huge problem Pakistan said things already "in the now/hotheaded" about supposed damage India took on its airforce bases....compared to what has transpired objectively.

But we do expect Pakistan decision makers in deeper level to take stock of how this all went (and response on infiltration networks into India under their control)....as to why there is huge differential on the infra.

5 dead Pakistani airmen in just one air base targetted by drone + brahmos. Nothing done back in return.

Just this one is a huge deal in the end, I thought I would never see it (especially after mumbai 08 when India did zilch).

India will just lead with this next time directly to degree its proven now. No need for the other stuff....that is optional and secondary now, and best reserved for larger conflict tiers when there is need or sustainment + combined arms that smooths out their weaknesses better.

 

[Nilgiri]

I understand that in the grand scheme of things loosing a few fighter jets isn't a big issue for a country like India,but....if your tip of the lance is 36 Rafales and you've lost 1 ,or 2,or 3,against Pakistan armed with Chinese fighter jets( not even China itself)....it matters!
Now ,if this is a loss due to the whole ecosystem (fighter jets,AWACS,EW,pilot skill,satellite support, etc),or just missile,fighter jets capability....this IS the most interesting part to find out.

I'll make it real simple for you to understand.

If India doesnt have the israeli apex all sorted out and invested in to degree needed for one-offs. Its going to skip that part, and keep it for spear girth instead.

As to why this has transitioned from earlier use of Indian army for this apex, to now missile corps has to do with Pakistan nuclear deterrent (developed since Indian Army entered in 71 the way it did).... and Indian timidity towards this earlier since the ~90s (if you study even Kargil war).

But India now unlocks "tiers 3 and 4" past 0, 1 and 2.

The stupid thing I said in DM area here (I can post it if you want), is Modi and decision makers to go for some Israeli approach first....when India force level is nowhere near an "Israel scaled up 100 times etc" etc. Those kind of things are maybe found in the West only (US and some European countries). There are reasons to experiment with "israel approach" first, that's a longer analysis to do later.

But way this whole thing concluded in end, India will leverage rather what it does have in apex way, especially if done with impunity proven now.

"Terrorist attack? A B and C pakistani military infra gets liquidated." Best not to infiltrate/support to begin with (whatever you want to say outwardly).

Basically the "copy israel" "try to compete in the now hoo hah jingo stuff" "media first, strategy second" does not befit size of India like it does Israel first of all.

So if you rely on that side of things with some media garbage out there for "India denied this and that"...what can I tell you? The debrief isnt even done.

Name me a reason why India should be in a rush "for Pakistani, Western or other funny foreigner immediate jingo trumpian sentiments" when it provably took a heck of a lot of time and resource investment (that it barely had) when it received the first flood of refugees escaping atrocities from East Pakistan?

The official debrief will be done in our sweet time.

For now you can look at the satellite OSINT on each side, since commercial international ones release those. Enjoy.

 

[Costin1984]

I'll make it real simple for you to understand.

If India doesnt have the israeli apex all sorted out and invested in to degree needed for one-offs. Its going to skip that part, and keep it for spear girth instead.

As to why this has transitioned from earlier use of Indian army for this apex, to now missile corps has to do with Pakistan nuclear deterrent (developed since Indian Army entered in 71 the way it did).... and Indian timidity towards this earlier since the ~90s (if you study even Kargil war).

But India now unlocks "tiers 3 and 4" past 0, 1 and 2.

The stupid thing I said in DM area here (I can post it if you want), is Modi and decision makers to go for some Israeli approach first....when India force level is nowhere near an "Israel scaled up 100 times etc" etc. Those kind of things are maybe found in the West only (US and some European countries). There are reasons to experiment with "israel approach" first, that's a longer analysis to do later.

But way this whole thing concluded in end, India will leverage rather what it does have in apex way, especially if done with impunity proven now.

"Terrorist attack? A B and C pakistani military infra gets liquidated." Best not to infiltrate/support to begin with (whatever you want to say outwardly).

Basically the "copy israel" "try to compete in the now hoo hah jingo stuff" "media first, strategy second" does not befit size of India like it does Israel first of all.

So if you rely on that side of things with some media garbage out there for "India denied this and that"...what can I tell you? The debrief isnt even done.

Name me a reason why India should be in a rush "for Pakistani, Western or other funny foreigner immediate jingo trumpian sentiments" when it provably took a heck of a lot of time and resource investment (that it barely had) when it received the first flood of refugees escaping atrocities from East Pakistan?

The official debrief will be done in our sweet time.

For now you can look at the satellite OSINT on each side, since commercial international ones release those. Enjoy.

In the Kargil war,Indian AF dominated the skies now,I'm not so sure.

 

[Nilgiri]

In the Kargil war,Indian AF dominated the skies now,I'm not so sure.

uh no it didnt. It provided decent CAS and A2G on the objectives there....PAF had to stay out of it as they had that ruse these were local militants and not their guys.

That was a totally different kind of war and context to whats going on now.

"My precious rafales"....da hell lmao. No one gives a F about your rafale "reputation" to preserve when India has its context to begin with to deal with.

Oh no my precious skyhawks, I lost a 1/3rd of them in rolling thunder...whatever will I do waah. Certainly not learn and grow to linebacker and then GW1....just dwell on that as be all end all? heh.

The point India wants to make in the end, is the terror has to stop now, or more Pakistani military stuff goes bye bye....in one-sided fashion.

There is a lot of room between Pakistani military infra to target like this and the "DHA villas"....its only the last bit that gets closer to nuclear trigger fingers, its pretty objectively proven.

India grows, and grows more IAD and missile arsenals to utilise with whats proven now. Pakistan's choice to learn deep down it best stick to its own side of fait accompli w.r.t Kashmir that India is fine with.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

I don't get it.

From the slide, they used a picture taken previously and photoshopped with a submarine. And an Admiral presents that in front of the world media as part of current military operations/exercises

 

[Rajendra Chola]

Surely India could show off all of its Rafales lined up like ducklings In a row if noon was shot down.

Will show them or disclose losses at the end of operations. Military bosses have to give briefings to parliamentary committees on defence. Truth cannot be hidden in open democracies run by civilian govt.

 

[Jackdaws]

It is important to realise that India has not denied it took losses in the air.

The conflict window will have to wrap up and debrief given to degree its done.

This is the strategy India has long followed....ever since all kind of huff and puff done in various media (international or local) after operation searchlight in 1971 in East Pakistan.

i.e I read pretty much every single NYT article during those 9 months after march and then the 1 year after december too.

As to when the debrief is done and what can be gleamed objectively....and just how much NYT got wrong in the end (as to use as some golden standard of its time back then.....now its much worse today).

We understand smaller "edgier" countries need to live more on the transient fumes "of current moment" lot more.

But large countries like India and China follow a very non-Israeli/non-western approach to letting the conflict window end first.

Then people can say these countries have objectively lied with x,y, z denial etc (like say the very different accounts of what PRC losses versus Vietnam in 79 and PRC losses versus USSR in 69 etc).....but only then.

It is not done in interim and short term window.

It is unfortunate that Indian media is copy pasting in catch up way with western media hoohah BS....along with own sentimentality BS in its context.

Ha, I did too. For 1965 and 1971. Both - WaPo and NYT. Found WaPo better. They were on microfilm been a while

 

[Rajendra Chola]

Another…

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1922172487518888185

 

[Rajendra Chola]

Rahim Yar Khan Base….

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1922178940900082076

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1922271359033344505

 

[Zapper]

PAF Bholari Airbase shared by Maxar

 

[Zapper]

PM Modi in front of an S-400 launcher and a Mig-29 see in the background at the Adampur air base

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1922198572193235268

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1922191459303772406

 

[Zapper]

Modi at Adampur airbase

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1921988360475656537

 

[Jackdaws]

This is nothing new. The Pakistanis ran to Clinton to intervene in 1999. And now Trump. I am sure they are brave as all soldiers. But they seemed to confuse good tactics for good strategy.

 

[Afif]

This is nothing new. The Pakistanis ran to Clinton to intervene in 1999. And now Trump. I am sure they are brave as all soldiers. But they seemed to confuse good tactics for good strategy.

It is not clear at this point if it was Modi or Pakistanis that ran to US.

 

[Agha Sher]

Interesting to see a pro-pak/turkish account post this

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1920967526550294812

Images from this airport shows no significant damage to infrastructure. No aircrafts were damaged.

 

[Agha Sher]

It is not clear at this point if it was Modi or Pakistanis that ran to US.

CNN stated india ran to the Americans

 

[Jackdaws]

CNN stated india ran to the Americans

Where ?

 

[Nilgiri]

Will show them or disclose losses at the end of operations. Military bosses have to give briefings to parliamentary committees on defence. Truth cannot be hidden in open democracies run by civilian govt.

It took an amount of time for the US and GW1 for same reason. A full debrief and analysis when all OPSEC and alert are fully over.