TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Tornadoss]

Is 'aggressive climb and maneuver' in the room with us right now?

F-22 Raptor takeoff climb

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What I imagine when I see aggressive climb

 

[Agha Sher]

F-22 Raptor takeoff climb

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What I imagine when I see aggressive climb

As a minimum you need the landing gear retracted.

 

[MonteCarlo]

TB3 will start operating on TCG Anadolu in September. I wonder how is the progress with the land based TB-3?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1961754078670696478

I guess this answers my question Land forces has started acquiring Land Based TB-3's.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1963527753208136182

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

I like the way you approach this. You are correct in thinking that this drone should operate in airspaces where total air superiority is gained.

But TB2 stands for Tactical Block 2. It is not a standard MALE drone. It is built to fight.
Tactical in armed forces means taking immediate combat actions in the battlefield front.
So this plane’s Primary job is battlefield combat action. Not reconnaissance. So it should be made to perform what it was built for. If it has deficiencies in that field, then those shortcomings need to be addressed.
We have enough drones for reconnaissance, and similar platforms for stand off missile launching with more payload capacities, like Anka-S, Akinci and Aksungur.

Imo main job of a MALE drone is recon then it is to provide air support in places you have the air superiority be it by exploiting the gaps in enemy AD or operating in areas you have total air superiority. The success TB-2 had against Russian systems was an anomaly and should not be regarded as its main function albeit it can be replicated if certain conditions are met(EW support, good intel etc). This does not mean it is a bad or outdated concept but trying to shoehorn it into the role it was used in Libya, Syria and Azerbaijan in a peer to peer modern combat would be ineffective. Helicopter is a good comparison in that regard T-129's are extremely useful in counter-terrorism operations however no one would expect it to operate in contested air space and take out enemy AD. It is better to leave TB-2 as is or make it more useful in stand-off roles by integrating more sensors and long range missiles and give the task of operating in contested air space and gaining air superiority(which should be top priority anyway) to actual fighter jets.

Think of TB2 as TAF's modern day Sherman tank. It's cheap and easy to mass produce, and that matters a lot in a real war once things get rough.

In my opinion TB2 doesn't need longer range weapons. It needs countermeasures against munitions like 358. It doesn't need to be survivable against proper AD systems, that's where our jet powered drones and anti-radiation weapons step in. Once they clear the way, send in TB2s to pick apart their ground forces. It's a cheap platform for launching cheap munitions. If backed up with more advanced systems, it will continue to do its role for decades.



Every drone has its place

• Anka 3: Deep strike, stand off capable, SEAD/DEAD
• Kızılelma: Air supremacy, stand-off capable, anti-ship, SEAD/DEAD
• Akıncı: Heavy bombardment, stand-off capable, anti-ship, AA against helicopters and drones
• Aksungur: Medium bombardment, Long endurance reconnaissance, anti-submarine,
• TB3: Anti-tank, anti-infantry, limited standoff capabilities
• TB2: Anti tank, anti-infantry

 

[mTT]

9.Test Flight | Aggressive Climb and Maneuver Test

 

[Huelague]

9.Test Flight | Aggressive Climb and Maneuver Test

"Aggressive"? Looks very smooth to me. Any indication of aggressive maneuver here?

 

[MonteCarlo]

"Aggressive"? Looks very smooth to me. Any indication of aggressive maneuver here?

I think it is supossed to be "Agressive climb" and "Maneuver", the agressive adjective is only for the climb part. But it is still little suspect

 

[cr33pt3d]

the question is what is considered a high G maneuvre for an unmanned "fighter jet". i remember S.Bayraktar said that they expect K.E to do 11G maneuvres.

 

[TR_123456]

9.Test Flight | Aggressive Climb and Maneuver Test

I dont see it,whats agressive about that climb?

 

[Huelague]

I dont see it,whats agressive about that climb?

Even the wheels are not retracted.

 

[fushkee]

For aggressive manoeuvres, you have to have titanium structure in the aircraft. I don’t remember that KE has a titanium body structure.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

For more than a year, they’ve been tinkering with these config – but a Kızılelma with just a single engine makes no sense, especially with the one currently installed. Even a TF-10000 as a standalone engine wouldn’t make much of a difference.
From the very beginning, a twin-engine concept would have been the logical choice because thrust-to-weight ratio. After all, the drone is meant to serve both the land and naval forces – so why limit it in this way is beyond me.

It feels like a flying concrete block, you can tell that the drone is underpowered.

 

[Yasar_TR]

For more than a year, they’ve been tinkering with these config – but a Kızılelma with just a single engine makes no sense, especially with the one currently installed. Even a TF-10000 as a standalone engine wouldn’t make much of a difference.
From the very beginning, a twin-engine concept would have been the logical choice because thrust-to-weight ratio. After all, the drone is meant to serve both the land and naval forces – so why limit it in this way is beyond me.

I understand your dissatisfaction. But if we have to go by your logic then f404 on a heavy -14000kg- Gripen shouldn’t work either. Yet it can easily do +9g and -3g manoeuvres. Also flies at 2mach.
If the airframe is designed properly, KE with “composite” main structure and 5-6000lbf dry thrust and/or 9-10000lbf wet thrust engine, can do what we are all expecting from it. Increasing engine quantity will only facilitate longer range and more payload plus a bigger plane. Not necessarily its agility. In fact it can be the other way round. (F16 is more agile than f15).

 

[Zafer]

I think they want to expand maneuvering agility envelope incrementally, why risk a crash rushing testing.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

For more than a year, they’ve been tinkering with these config – but a Kızılelma with just a single engine makes no sense, especially with the one currently installed. Even a TF-10000 as a standalone engine wouldn’t make much of a difference.
From the very beginning, a twin-engine concept would have been the logical choice because thrust-to-weight ratio. After all, the drone is meant to serve both the land and naval forces – so why limit it in this way is beyond me.

It feels like a flying concrete block, you can tell that the drone is underpowered.

İ dont support drone with 2 engines , it will be too expensive and maintenance headache even f35 and f16 have 1 engine . Kizilelma just need more powerful engine and tf 10k is enough.
Aslo Kizilelma but aslo Anka 3 needs to be more steathy perhaps Anka 3 it is but at rear its not . We hear all kinds of test about kizilelma but never agaist a modern Radar. From how far can it be spotted ?
So basically Kizilelma needs stealth & more powerful engine with stealth design, or against powerful opponents it will be downed like a fly from the sky.

 

[MonteCarlo]

İ dont support drone with 2 engines , it will be too expensive and maintenance headache even f35 and f16 have 1 engine . Kizilelma just need more powerful engine and tf 10k is enough.
Aslo Kizilelma but aslo Anka 3 needs to be more steathy perhaps Anka 3 it is but at rear its not . We hear all kinds of test about kizilelma but never agaist a modern Radar , how far can it spotted ?
So basically Kizilelma needs steath & more powerful engine with steath design or agaist powerful opponets will be downed like a fly from the sky

I don't think they will ever publish stealth tests because there isn't much to show and it is one of the more guarded topics. But Ahmet Akyol has said that they are collabarating with Baykar on things like sensors but also on the stealth. I would guess that includes testing against best radars Aselsan got. Kubilay Yıldırım had a nice Twitter thread about how each prototype has improved on the stealth features

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I don’t see a problem here: two AI-322F engines are cheaper than most other engines worldwide. This is a Soviet-era design from the 1980s, and if produced under license — for example, with a 10-year contract — the costs could be reduced even further. By 2032, the TF-10000 would also be ready and in serial production.
There is therefore no reason why costs should spiral out of control with two of these Ukrainian engines.

A single engine of this class only provides a thrust-to-weight ratio of about 0.30–0.40 (dry) or 0.50–0.60 (wet). That is not competitive for a loyal wingman concept — it is simply underpowered.

With two engines, however, the ratio would reach around 0.70–0.80 (dry) and 1.0–1.10 (wet).
A drone powered by just one AI-322F or TF-10000 would be at a clear disadvantage — lacking the kinetic performance for BVR engagements in Mid Range and offering virtually no agility in a dogfight.

The drones should operate like a wolf pack – fast, agile, and in coordination. Light, highly maneuverable drones take on the role of scouts and first-contact assets in air combat. They disrupt the enemy, force defensive maneuvers, and simultaneously act as forward sensors.

Kızılelma functions as a combat drone in the front and mid-range, capable of employing its own air-to-air missiles. Anka-3, operating from greater distance, serves both as a “stealth bomber” and, more importantly, as an AAM truck. Carrying a large payload of long-range missiles (e.g., Gökhan, Gökbora, six to eight units), it amplifies firepower while remaining concealed further back.

The KAAN fighter jet acts as the command and data-fusion hub. It deliberately holds its own missiles in the internal bays until the decisive moment. This layered approach forces adversaries into a defensive posture: they must constantly react to swarming drones and BVR (beyond visual range) threats, while KAAN remains in control and chooses when to strike.

The synergy of these systems – swarm drones in close/mid range with Kızılelma as a flexible combat drone, and Anka-3 as a long-range missile carrier – creates a distributed and resilient air combat ecosystem. The opponent loses initiative, while the Turkish side maximizes its striking power through networking, sensor fusion, and tactical layering.

This is the air combat doctrine of the 21st Century, System of Systems in Network.

 

[Pokemonte13]

As far as i remember baykar will make its own 20.000 Lbs engine similar to a f414 but im guessing(hoping) a bit more advanced reduced ir signature more efficient. So maybe single engine will be that and twin engine the tf10000. Also kizilelma will be more stealthier that any 4/4.5 gen aircraft maybe not as stealthy as 5th gen aircraft but against an f16 or an f15 it could probably engage it earlier than vise versa. And a more powerful engine is needed for the aircraft carrier

 

[Huelague]

Can we expect some (significant) design changes? A more matured stealth design.

 

[boredaf]

A more matured stealth design.

How much stealthier do you think the design can get? Only thing they can do, imo, is to make sure the build quality is solid and coat it in RAM paint.