TR Propulsion Systems

[Yasar_TR]

GE owns %46.2 of TEI shares, TUSAS owns %50.5. %3.3 of the shares is owned by the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation. SSB doesn't want TEI to hold IP rights of the engine because of this distribution of the shares. TUSAS owns %100 of TRMotor, and Turkish Armed Forces Foundation owns %54.5 of TUSAS, while SSB owns the rest of TUSAS with negligible Turkish Aeronautical Association involvement (%0.06) so TUSAS is %100 owned by the state and state-affiliated foundation. TRMotor is %100 owned by TUSAS. Both the fighter and its engine %100 owned by the Turkish state.

Partial GE Ownership of company does not play a part on the IP rights of the engines TEI produces. Whether it be TF6000/10000 or TF35000 or PD170 or TS1400 ; these are engines that are produced by TEI engineering team utilising entirely domestic resources, be it material or human.

Dr Aksit explained this in one of his earlier interviews when they were developing TS1400. GE doesn’t mind and interfere with Turkish development as the cost of development is covered by the state. There is a special understanding and agreement between Tusas and GE.

As a shareholder they will get their share of profit at the end of the year. But when it comes to IP rights , they are definitely not in the loop.

TR Motor was created to be a financial contributor to the engines for TFX with their 49% Qatari ownership. There were financial reasons behind the TR Motor involvement rather than the İP rights when it was first introduced. Because of the Qatari involvement, RR had pulled out. To entice RR back in to the fold they kicked Qataris out and made TR Motor 100% TAI owned. By that time, there were 100s of ex TEI engineers and many more were working at TR Motor. It is essentially a design bureau that also holds the rights of Turkish defence industry engines. Nothing more.

 

[TheInsider]

Partial GE Ownership of company does not play a part on the IP rights of the engines TEI produces. Whether it be TF6000/10000 or TF35000 or PD170 or TS1400 ; these are engines that are produced by TEI engineering team utilising entirely domestic resources, be it material or human.

Dr Aksit explained this in one of his earlier interviews when they were developing TS1400. GE doesn’t mind and interfere with Turkish development as the cost of development is covered by the state. There is a special understanding and agreement between Tusas and GE.

As a shareholder they will get their share of profit at the end of the year. But when it comes to IP rights , they are definitely not in the loop.

TR Motor was created to be a financial contributor to the engines for TFX with their 49% Qatari ownership. There were financial reasons behind the TR Motor involvement rather than the İP rights when it was first introduced. Because of the Qatari involvement, RR had pulled out. To entice RR back in to the fold they kicked Qataris out and made TR Motor 100% TAI owned. By that time, there were 100s of ex TEI engineers and many more were working at TR Motor. It is essentially a design bureau that also holds the rights of Turkish defence industry engines. Nothing more.

GE/US can get access to sensitive data about the fighter and the engine if the main contractor is TEI. That alone is enough reason for this approach. GE will also get a bigger pie if TEI is the main contractor. The main contractor, which owns the IP rights, sells the engines this is the reason IP rights are important. If TUSAS sells 500 fighters over 2 decades, that means over 1000 engines. Now TRMotor will sell the engines, and TEI will produce whatever work package TRMotor assigns to TEI.

Lets assume TEI is the main contractor and sells the engine for double the price of production to an export customer for 20 million dollars. 10 million is profit and GE gets 4.6 millions. If TRMotor sells the same product, TEI is paid for its workshare, and TRMotor will get all of the profit.

 

[Yasar_TR]

GE/US can get access to sensitive data about the fighter and the engine if the main contractor is TEI. That alone is enough reason for this approach. GE will also get a bigger pie if TEI is the main contractor. The main contractor, which owns the IP rights, sells the engines this is the reason IP rights are important. If TUSAS sells 500 fighters over 2 decades, that means over 1000 engines. Now TRMotor will sell the engines, and TEI will produce whatever work package TRMotor assigns to TEI.

You seem to have missed the main point here. As explained by Dr Aksit, GE doesn’t get involved in engine developments or production of TS1400, PD170 and TF6000. These are all products whose IP rights are in the hands of Turkish entities. There is an understanding between GE and TAI. Do you think GE will know anything sensitive about TF6000? Dr Aksit, during his interview had said that everything they do for these engines are done in a separate line free from GE involvement.
TEI produces these engines and as Tusas owns majority share of TEI, they control the IP rights. TS1400 is a good example. It’s IP right are owned by TEI and Tusas. We can sell it and tf6000 to any one we want. GE has no say in it.

Lets assume TEI is the main contractor and sells the engine for double the price of production to an export customer for 20 million dollars. 10 million is profit and GE gets 4.6 millions. If TRMotor sells the same product, TEI is paid for its workshare, and TRMotor will get all of the profit.

This is the important part. This is why TR Motor is there. Not for IP rights. IP rights is a smoke screen. So a thumbs up to your post for this paragraph.
That is why all engines are going through TR Motor company now. There is a lot of -“profit” - to be made here.

 

[Shtr]

Let me share 2024 profit of the TUSAS which might solve some issues.

https://iso500.org.tr/tusas-turk-havacilik-ve-uzay-sanayii-as?yil=2024&birinci500=1

Their profit around 50M $ before tax. What we are talking is really small amount of money. It is approximately 40M $ . This is roughly half of the Osimhen price. It is clearly that it is not related to profit.

 

[2033]

Let me share 2024 profit of the TUSAS which might solve some issues.

https://iso500.org.tr/tusas-turk-havacilik-ve-uzay-sanayii-as?yil=2024&birinci500=1

Their profit around 50M $ before tax. What we are talking is really small amount of money. It is approximately 40M $ . This is roughly half of the Osimhen price. It is clearly that it is not related to profit.

When too much investment is made, profits decline. You can't predict what will happen ten years from now.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Let me share 2024 profit of the TUSAS which might solve some issues.

https://iso500.org.tr/tusas-turk-havacilik-ve-uzay-sanayii-as?yil=2024&birinci500=1

Their profit around 50M $ before tax. What we are talking is really small amount of money. It is approximately 40M $ . This is roughly half of the Osimhen price. It is clearly that it is not related to profit.

Just a quick arithmetic for the next decade after serial production:
250 Kaan for Tuaf
48 Kaan for Indonesia
48 Kaan for Egypt
~100 Kaan for other countries like Pak, Azerbaycan, Saudi etc
makes 1000+ engines. at 8-10 million each you are looking at 8-10 billion dollars.
200KE forTuaf
200Anka3 for Tuaf.
~ 400 more planes for other countries
makes another 1000 tf6000/10000 engines at 5-6 million each makes 5-6 billion dollars.
So within a decade at least 15+ billion dollars of engine sales.

Take Tusas with 450 Kaans at 120 million each will make 54billion dollars
300Anka3 s at 40 million will be 12 billion. (I guesstimated Anka-3)
So just those two engines and planes will mean over 80 billion in sales in a decade or so after serial production start.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Just a quick arithmetic for the next decade after serial production:
250 Kaan for Tuaf
48 Kaan for Indonesia
48 Kaan for Egypt
~100 Kaan for other countries like Pak, Azerbaycan, Saudi etc
makes 1000+ engines. at 8-10 million each you are looking at 8-10 billion dollars.
200KE forTuaf
200Anka3 for Tuaf.
~ 400 more planes for other countries
makes another 1000 tf6000/10000 engines at 5-6 million each makes 5-6 billion dollars.
So within a decade at least 15+ billion dollars of engine sales.

Take Tusas with 450 Kaans at 120 million each will make 54billion dollars
300Anka3 s at 40 million will be 12 billion. (I guesstimated Anka-3)
So just those two engines and planes will mean over 80 billion in sales in a decade or so after serial production start.

where do you get these numbers

 

[TheInsider]

You seem to have missed the main point here. As explained by Dr Aksit, GE doesn’t get involved in engine developments or production of TS1400, PD170 and TF6000. These are all products whose IP rights are in the hands of Turkish entities. There is an understanding between GE and TAI. Do you think GE will know anything sensitive about TF6000? Dr Aksit, during his interview had said that everything they do for these engines are done in a separate line free from GE involvement.
TEI produces these engines and as Tusas owns majority share of TEI, they control the IP rights. TS1400 is a good example. It’s IP right are owned by TEI and Tusas. We can sell it and tf6000 to any one we want. GE has no say in it.

This is the important part. This is why TR Motor is there. Not for IP rights. IP rights is a smoke screen. So a thumbs up to your post for this paragraph.
That is why all engines are going through TR Motor company now. There is a lot of -“profit” - to be made here.

Akşit can tell whatever he wants. GE has seats in the board, has the backing of the US and GE is the biggest job provider for TEI and GE has a word for whatever happens in TEI. You can't just hide data from your second biggest shareholder when your company is the owner/main contractor of the project. That is not how it works. Akşit is conducting public relations. GE can get all the data about TF6000 if GE wants. TF6000 and TS-1400 are not important projects for them, so i doubt anyone on their side will get involved. They will probably just say don't spend the company's money for silly projects like those engines. We don't have money to throw around, and Akşit will tell them that he is not spending the company's money, government fully finances those projects and IP rights will belong to TEI and that is a win for the company.

 

[Yasar_TR]

where do you get these numbers

Just educated guesswork.
As Kaan is to replace 240+ F16 for TuAF
Indonesia already ordered 48 units.
Egypt already joined the Kaan program.
Pakistan wants to join.
UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Azerbaijan are likely contenders.
Price of Kaan originally given as 100million by Kotil, has since been declared as increased. So I conservatively guesstimated to be 120 million. Indonesia signed a deal worth 10 billion for 48 planes. That makes 208 million per plane. But that probably includes spares and training etc.

A 6000lbf class engine price varies from 4-5 million To 20 million if you have it manufactured to your own specs. (RR was awarded a 1.01 billion dollar contract for 210 goshawk Adour F405 engines) An engine like F135 was around 14-15 million dollars. But it is now estimated to be in excess of 20 million each. (If you have it manufactured to your specifications like F110GE132 for UAE, you pay 50 million each - 400 million for 80 engines-)

KE could be sold in higher quantities than I have given. Baykar joining forces with Italians opens up new avenues for them. TuAF should buy over the years at least equal numbers if not more than the Kaan numbers, if they are going to be accompanying Kaan as a loyal wingman. Same can be said for the Anka-3 even though it is mainly a deep strike drone. Tusas already sells UAVs and helicopters and planes to Tunisia, Nigeria, Malaysia, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, Kirghizistan, Egypt….It shouldn’t be too difficult to sell these in large quantities as they will be market leaders.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Akşit can tell whatever he wants.

No he can’t. He was responding to a question regarding GE’s stance towards TEI developing engines for Turkey, as the Managing Director of TEI. What he says binds him to be correct as the top piece of mouth of TEI.

GE has a word for whatever happens in TEI.

Exactly. And they have allowed TEI to work and develop engines for Turkey as long as TEI funds are not spent. At the end of the day when engines are sold, they get a share of the profit. And they are all state funded.

GE can get all the data about TF6000 if GE wants. TF6000 and TS-1400 are not important projects for them

Correct! That is why I wouldn’t worry about sensitive information being in their hands. GE is the teacher. TEI is the student. GE is a company that is working on ACE and CRDE. They are past the Turbofan tech.

government fully finances those projects and IP rights will belong to TEI.

As I have explained in my previous post. IP rights stays with TAI/Tusas as the owner of TEI. Being the majority shareholder Tusas will have the final say.

So IP rights is not the real issue here. It is the financial side that is important. By keeping all the IP rights of all engines under one roof makes things easier. That is all.

 

[TheInsider]

TF-35000 is an important project. GE/US would like to get as much data as possible about the engine, even if it is technologically backwards from their latest and greatest. And it is not just the engine data. If you are the main contractor of an engine that is being developed exclusively for a fighter, as the main contractor of the engine, you also get access to the sensitive data of the said fighter. If i were in the shoes of the US military intelligence, i would want to get detailed data about TF-35000 and KAAN projects.

 

[Zafer]

It is best to shake GE off going forward.

 

[Huelague]

TF-35000 is an important project. GE/US would like to get as much data as possible about the engine, even if it is technologically backwards from their latest and greatest. And it is not just the engine data. If you are the main contractor of an engine that is being developed exclusively for a fighter, as the main contractor of the engine, you also get access to the sensitive data of the said fighter. If i were in the shoes of the US military intelligence, i would want to get detailed data about TF-35000 and KAAN projects.

Nobody doubt what US/GE wants. The question is, what will they get.

 

[TheInsider]

Turkiye plans to adopt adaptive/combined cycle engines for 6th gen.
Now I understand why DeltaV is developing a ramjet.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1997958955696353743

 

[Shtr]

Is there any news about TF-6000 and TF-10000?

@TheInsider

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkiye plans to adopt adaptive/combined cycle engines for 6th gen.
Now I understand why DeltaV is developing a ramjet.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1997958955696353743

It is good to see that other companies are working on the Ramjet technology. But this is not much different in terms of ramjet, to what Tubitak and Roketsan are working on.
OK, they fired from ground to air and activated the ramjet. Tubitak and Roketsan will probably test (if they haven’t already done so) their Gökhan and Gokbora by firing it from air with a booster to bring the missile to the right speed so that ramjet can start. It is a matter of adding a booster to give the missile initial high speed to kickstart the ramjet.

From what we can see, this a rocket that has a ramjet engine. Once the right speed is reached with the help of a booster section, the ramjet is started.

Many countries are working on ramjet and a few on scramjet powered missiles.
Yet only a handful of companies are actually building prototypes of combine turbofan to scramjet.
To claim that they are going to include this ramjet propulsion in to a combined cycle turbofan/turbojet to ramjet that will propel an aircraft, is a bit far fetched. If it were TEI mentioning this then It could be more believable.

A combined cycle engine works as a turbine jet engine to reach Mach 1.5 to 2 speeds. Then Ramjet or scramjet takes over to bring the platform to high supersonic or hypersonic speeds.

One of the companies that has a working example is the Hermeus with their Chimera engine that is yet to fly. They use a P&W f100 engine as a base.

 

[Yasar_TR]

You don't need to educate me on combined cycle; I know very well what it is and what it does. This is technology gaining phase of a future Turkish adaptive/combined cycle engine. Don't forget that DeltaV is owned by SSB and SSB has a long-term engine roadmap. After accumulating enough experience, this will open new horizons. Team at DeltaV will be a part of future next generation engine team together with TEI and TRMotor. Roketsan is concentrated on mostly solid-fuel ramjets and Tubitak is probably concentrate its effort on niche applications. DeltaV team will probably design the ramjet phase of the future engine.

First of all my post was not intended to educate you or anybody. It was in detail to make a point for the benefit of all members here. You have no reason to take a defensive attitude. I think everyone here is aware of what you know.

DELTAV Uzay Teknolojileri was established by Dr Arif Karabeyoglu in 2016. He has since moved to Fergani.
Deltav is a company that had promised us a hard landing on moon in 2023. Well they are still busy trying to go beyond 100km in space. They had most recently reached 200km altitude. They are yet to place anything in to orbit.
Funnily Fergani has already done it. I wonder if priorities of the company has changed??

So please don’t take offence if I don’t believe in them achieving a combined cycle engine, even with the help of TEI. There is still not a single engine that is flightworthy in this tech in the world. When 3 US (GE, P&W and Hermeus) and one US-UK partnership companies are still developing it, to claim that DeltaV is going to make a combined cycle ramjet engine is definitely far fetched.

CRDE may beat them all. Time will show.

There is a lot of incentive in space and satellite exploration. Boeing turnover in 2025 will be over 23 billion dollars. SpaceX will be over 15 billion dollars. So it is worth investing in.

But while investing in potential money making businesses, we mustn’t forget the importance of liquid fuelled long range assault rockets either.

 

[Quasar]

If you use an institution a document or a company as a reference,you need to provide a reliable source !!!

 

[Anmdt]

DELTAV Uzay Teknolojileri was established by Dr Arif Karabeyoglu in 2016. He has since moved to Fergani.
Deltav is a company that had promised us a hard landing on moon in 2023. Well they are still busy trying to go beyond 100km in space. They had most recently reached 200km altitude. They are yet to place anything in to orbit.
Funnily Fergani has already done it. I wonder if priorities of the company has changed??

We shall not ignore power of Selcuk Bayraktar and how he sometimes 'absorbed' (not quite peacefully) entire know-how of an existing company - like what happened with SAGE / Gürcan Okumuş, he sacked a well operating figure, manager who established a culture and bind people together, over a little dispute guidance know-how transfer (even later got him jailed, and rendered him unemployed currently since took it a little far with his own visions in Assan). There has been more than just transfer of a single person there with DeltaV and we know it very well. The failure of DeltaV (yet they still manage to survive) and rise of Fergani is very well connected events.

DeltaV's technologies were long funded by SSB, hence our money, and somehow magically ended up on the laps of Baykar. I can't quite think this was innocent or ethical.

This is entirely off the topic, but if he wants things get done, it gets done - either peacefully, or unethically / forcefully. Just so, we shouldn't blame / criticize DeltaV straight away.

 

[TheInsider]

First of all my post was not intended to educate you or anybody. It was in detail to make a point for the benefit of all members here. You have no reason to take a defensive attitude. I think everyone here is aware of what you know.

DELTAV Uzay Teknolojileri was established by Dr Arif Karabeyoglu in 2016. He has since moved to Fergani.
Deltav is a company that had promised us a hard landing on moon in 2023. Well they are still busy trying to go beyond 100km in space. They had most recently reached 200km altitude. They are yet to place anything in to orbit.
Funnily Fergani has already done it. I wonder if priorities of the company has changed??

So please don’t take offence if I don’t believe in them achieving a combined cycle engine, even with the help of TEI. There is still not a single engine that is flightworthy in this tech in the world. When 3 US (GE, P&W and Hermeus) and one US-UK partnership companies are still developing it, to claim that DeltaV is going to make a combined cycle ramjet engine is definitely far fetched.

CRDE may beat them all. Time will show.

There is a lot of incentive in space and satellite exploration. Boeing turnover in 2025 will be over 23 billion dollars. SpaceX will be over 15 billion dollars. So it is worth investing in.

But while investing in potential money making businesses, we mustn’t forget the importance of liquid fuelled long range assault rockets either.

There are ramjet PhD research that goes back 15-20 years in time. Similar story with UAV. There were TUSAS UAV studies 25 years ago. It gave birth to Turkish UAV roadmap and the rest is history. A similar thing has been happening with turbine engines and will happen with combined cycle engines. Turkish defence projects advance in phases, and official project launch typically occurs when %70 of the base work is already done.

When Turkish Defense industry wants to develop a missile it doesn't start with the missile itself. It starts with scientific research into formulation and production of solid fuels.

It seems like the ramjet part of the future combined engine is given to DeltaV. In the future, probably after the TF-35000 project matures. This will provide enough expertise to tackle combined engines and people will ask how Turks managed to do that. It always happens like that. Pin this 10 years from now we will probably see the launch of the official project.